The Good, The Bad and The Ugly - Bears Vs. Lions
by Adam T on Oct 7, 2008 7:41 AM CDT
43 comments
This column is going to be a bit lopsided this week. Given we completely dominated a team it is harder to find the bad and the ugly.
THE GOOD
Don't know how often we will get to see this, so I am getting it down in writing for posterity. Orton finished with a 121.4 rating, second only to Eli Manning's 136.6.
Secondary. It would be easy to put down the run defense, but they play good every week. Our group of cornerbacks and safeties did a great job on the Lions receivers. Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson are both big, strong and talented receivers. The Bears never let them get behind them and limited their yards after the catch. CJ was all but shutdown and Williams yards came late in garbage time. The Bears pass rush did improve, they knotched 4 sacks, but still did not bring consistent pressure the Lions QB tandem had time to throw and still could not.
Ron Turner. Everybody has been hard on our offensive coordinator and most of the time rightly so, but recently with a QB who can make the throws and a running back who can run the ball his play calling has improved. He is letting Orton do what he needs to do and giving him the best chance to do it. I still don't know if he is the best answer for us, but he certainly isn't holding us back.
Receivers. The Bears receivers stepped up. There were some concerns with Brandon Lloyd out, but between Devin Hester, Rashied Davis, Marty Booker and Greg Olsen Orton had more than enough open targets to get the job done.
Marty Booker's one handed catch....nuff said.
Devin Hester's spin move/cut back...nuff said.
THE BAD
The run game. I know that the Bears overloaded the Lions with Matt Forte early and that they were keying in on him, but I still think they should have been able to do more against the 32 ranked run defense. 36 yards just isn't a lot for a lead back. It was only 15 carries for Forte, but whatever it wasn't needed.
Devin Hester's fumble. Hester fumbled on a return that led to Detroit's only score. This was going to go into the ugly section since Hester does have issues holding on to the ball, but I upgraded it to bad since it was a pretty hard hit and hits like that will dislodge a ball now and again. At least he made the initial catch.
THE UGLY
The Lions. The Lions as a team were unorganized, sloppy and just could not get anything going on any front. They couldn't run, they couldn't pass and they couldn't get out of their own way.
Roy Williams. I haven't looked at the NFL's biggest chump list in a few weeks, but he has to be high up on it. Every week we see the best receivers, even the second tier guys, making routine catches that are not directly to them. Roy Williams missed every ball that was not throw right at his face and then compalined to anybody who would listen or anybody who wouldn't openly ignore him rather that it wasn't his fault. The Lions are a bad team, they need their guys to make plays and he doesn't. TO drops the ball a lot too and he complains more than anybody, but he always seems to be there for the team and he makes some tough catches when the team needs it. Williams does not.
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Brilliant move by Roy
On Sunday Roy Williams sealed the deal: he made sure he won’t have to bother packing up his household this year. His lack of effort and pouting like a 3-year-old the lowered his value to other teams so much, no one would trade for him now. Well done, Roy!
by garsky on Oct 7, 2008 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Ugly...
My vote goes for our run blocking. Ugh.
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
by SackMan on Oct 7, 2008 4:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
hard for 5 guys
to block 8 defenders in the box prepared for a run every time.
by lopey986 on Oct 8, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Good...
I know he didn’t have a great day statistically, but how can you leave Forte out of this group. I believe he is the biggest difference this whole year. He fights for every yard he gets. He had some runs where he got 2 or 3 tough extra yards all on his own. I guess many people chalk it up to a small gain, but I have seen both Cedric Benson and Thomas Jones as well go down much easier. He makes a 2nd or 3rd and long into a 2nd or 3rd and manageable. This is huge. Our 3rd down conversion rate is so high because of Forte. The first drive they pretty much went to him every time, not only in the run game, but passing as well. He softens up the defense to a point where guys are wide open and Orton has all day to throw.
Crown their ass
by jeffgeorge88 on Oct 7, 2008 4:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because you already nailed why he didn't
“I know he didn’t have a great day statistically”
The Good, Bad, and Ugly is for each individual game, not the season. Forte has been MVP so far, no doubt about that. But Orton’s performance was better against the Lions.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 7, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Statistcally
But it is a whole different game w/o Forte
Crown their ass
by jeffgeorge88 on Oct 7, 2008 5:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I forgot to hit reply -sorry
Crown their ass
by jeffgeorge88 on Oct 7, 2008 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's fine
But he wasn’t the MVP of the game.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 7, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a new figure to worship
The way Fox game analyst, when looking at the first quarter statistics.
Instead of saying the Bears are a good team they said the stats proved:
That the Lions are a horrible team, and that they Bears are playing well.
It’s pretty ugly that people can’t even swallow enough pride to say,
“The Bears are a good team.” Is that hard to say?
We absolutely dominated the Lions. I was quite surprised
to see Forte’s final statistics. He continues to impress,
while that other guy I wanted is out for the year in Pittsburgh.
I will give JA some props. Olsen is doing well (where is D.Clark?)
since the Panthers game. Hester is gawd, apparently, to some.
But Forte has amazing vision and hands, and he does lower his pads.
And he drives his legs when being tackled. If I weren’t married,
I might marry Matt Forte. I can’t wait until he breaks another big
run off for a TD. I hope we see more of what we saw in Indy.
by ethan a on Oct 7, 2008 5:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
.....
The Good: We Won
The Bad: It wasn’t a shut out, due to a fumble.
The Ugly: The city of Detroit
WOW WHAT A SEASON!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Oct 7, 2008 6:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Orton...
…I was happy when they finally canned Grossman and am honestly beyond quite pleaseantly surprised at how he’s done so far. The NFL is tough, and we’re only a few plays from a 4-1/5-0 start, but I’ll take what we have now, especially when looking at the schedule coming up: after this week we’re in Chicago for a full month.
Kyle Orton is now 15-9 career as a starter. Not bad. .625 clip.
I am sober about Orton though – as good as his rating was, it’s actually BELOW what the Lions have been giving up on average – they’re getting torched. So, start your QBs against them as often as possible.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 7, 2008 10:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe his QB rating
But as I stated in the Fedex fan post, he’s performed better than all the quarterbacks have against the Lions so far this year.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 7, 2008 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geez...
…you can’t state facts around here without someone else trying to sound even more right, can you?
It’s getting OLD.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 7, 2008 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I mentioned...
… in the other thread, QB ratings for individual games are really lousy ways to measure a player’s performance.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You two crack me up:
whether you realize it or not, if someone came in here to say “the sky is blue” the two of you – moderators here no less – would turn it into an argument you’d try to win over what shade of blue.
If you two were savvy enough you’d realize there’s a joke in the fact the guy had a 120 rating (out of 136) and laugh at the fact that it IS below the average of what the Lions have been giving up. Instead, you have to remind everyone what you said elsewhere and big_low rolls in to say “the sky is cornflower blue”
If you’d actually open your eyes and stay positive this place would become a whole lot nicer, instead of playing a semantics game you need to win(I guess feel better about yourself). I’m guessing the answer is in your question: no rough week at school I work for a living. Maybe once you get out of school you’ll understand a little more of what I’m saying.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh good God
You have a problem with letting things go, huh?
But, you work for a living? Are you the same person that threw such a childish rant on here earlier in the summer that you looked like a 15 year old? And second, neither of us are moderators. Yeah, big_low points out flaws in people’s arguments. It pisses me off at times, but he challenges me as a writer and makes me check my own ideas. It’s not personal bro. This is a Chicago Bears blog, nothing else.
And, I can tell that you don’t read very well, because I’m very positive. If you’d actually read my posts, I’m one of the most positive people here. Analyzing and speaking the truth isn’t being ‘positive’ or ‘negative,’ it’s called reality. Why don’t you go take a look at the FedEx post….tell me who was positive or negative.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 8, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you'd like...
… to rehash your asinine leap when I said Dvoracek has contributed nothing to the team and you leap to the notion that meant I wanted to cut established pro Bowl players using the same logic – go right ahead. It’s less a matter of letting things go than seeing what kind of person you are. You made shit up then to…I don’t know or care to. But putting dumbass shit into people’s mouths is no way to establish a good first impression, is it? That’s how I met you, and saw how you rolled.
I appreciate thoughts about the team, whether positive or negative, but what I don’t appreciate is the ‘down the nose’ tone that you guys are using, whether you realize it or not. It’s pervasive not as much in what you say about things, but in how you say things to other people. It’s a piss fest. And you or big_low are often instigating. And again, that is fine, but you’re the moderator’s here and AFAIC have a bit more responsibility to curtail that behavior. Otherwise, that’s all this place will become – a piss fest. And frankly I see more potential in this place than that – don’t you?
You can act and write however you want, but I’ll push back whether or not you like it if I get dumb crap thrown at me.
I’m more than happy to bury it and move forward. We’re both Bears fans and I’d rather celebrate that. Hell, WCG posted my Payton clips that I put up on youtube, which I really dug because he’s still the best football player I ever saw. I come here to remember fond memories like those, not to be semantically corrected by moderators like above in both instances.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wtf?
I am not a moderator here.
I am not sure how else to say it. I don’t write here. I don’t moderate. I am a reader/commenter just like you.
Get it?
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not
Sorry, when I post and write for WCG, I want correct information to be out there. I get pissed at stupidity, and for my own sake and everyone else’s here, I want the correct information out there. That’s the exact reason why I corrected Jbasic and big_low. It wasn’t that I think big and jbasic are bad people, quite the opposite. But, I don’t want people basing their opinions on bad info. If you or anyone on here posts something stupid and wrong, I will attack it and bring down the argument. I’m not going to change that. Take a look at how I write. Unless things are so stupid that my head starts to hurt, I’m going to be nice about it.
I want to make this site more prominent as much as you do. However, basing arguments on incorrect information is stupid and brings down the credibility of the site. People have called me out on bad info before, and while I take it hard at first, I appreciate it in the long run. Notice why big_low and I argue a lot? We challenge each other, and I would hope that you understand that.
I am hardly a moderator. WCG is the moderator. I have author privileges, which means I can post without authorization on the front page. If there’s spam or other irrelevant fan posts, I can’t delete them. WCG is the only one with those privileges. To my knowledge, big_low is a reader/commenter, as he has stated.
We can bury the hatchet if you wish. But, if you state something that is wrong, I will correct you just as I do anyone else. Just don’t take things personally. At the end of the day, we’re all Bears fans. Once a Bears game is on, take a look at the game threads. We pretty much put everything aside and root for our team, which is why we’re all on here in the first place.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 8, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
moderators here no less
I am a moderator? News to me.
big_low rolls in to say "the sky is cornflower blue"
No… I actually just said that the stat you were looking at was pretty worthless.
If you’d actually open your eyes and stay positive
Huh? You are the one who is saying that Orton wasn’t as good as advertised (though I agree with you), and backing it up using a flawed stat.
Maybe once you get out of school you’ll understand a little more of what I’m saying.
Ooooh… that was almost funny. And not anywhere close to true, but that is okay.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know
a perfect qb rating is 158.3 and not 136, right?
by lopey986 on Oct 8, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest -
…YES, but when in an online debate I don’t go into googling some details to make sure I’m being ‘perfect’ here. I don’t know where I pulled the 136 from….
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI, I think the 136 came from the Fed ex post
Orton had the 2nd best rating behind Eli who had a 136.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
by Adam T on Oct 8, 2008 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is golden.
Let me paraphrase:
This is an online debate, so I don’t bother with actually having the facts be right.
Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me:
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 10:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
still trying...
… to figure out what I am supposed to moderate around here.
Keep making $hit up.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps I'm wrong...
…but I thought I have seen more than one front page/central column post by you. Without digging too deep into the machinations of the place, I more or less thought you were one of WCG’s Lieutenants, like ChiFan13. I didn’t know if you had guys ‘moderating’ powers or not. But if you’re a main author like ChiFan then you owe it to the visitors to perhaps be niggling less on details. Which is where I’m coming from.
This is actually good news, because it means this place isn’t as bad off as I thought.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not
I’m sorry, I don’t owe the visitors to be picking on details less. We’re trying to be the best Chicago Bears fan blog, not to turn into some other worse blog out there. We have credibility and they don’t. Know why? We provide up-to-the-minute CORRECT coverage.
This seems to be something we’ll never agree on.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 8, 2008 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
I have already said this, and I am not sure why you don’t get it.
I am not a main author here. I have had one diary promoted to the front page, but am not, and have never been, a main author here or “one of WCG’s Lieutenants.” And I have never written a “front page/central column.”
Get it?
And, FWIW, I think that you are very, very wrongheaded in thinking that this site’s main writers shouldn’t care about “details.” This isn’t BCB, which seems to celebrate bad arguments.
Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys don't even read.
I’m not talking in the end about details. I’m talking about tone.
Look at what you just wrote big_low: “I am not sure why you don’t get it” Have you told me before? No. You pointed it out and I answered your question. I wasn’t trying to change your mind, or What don’t I get? I saw your ONE front page diary and thought you were a ‘main author’ not a stretch when you have a…main page diary. Are we arguing about your status here? No, obviously I misinterpreted your level of contributions here because I swung by that one day you ahd something go large. Big Deal.
ChiFan – where did I say don’t get your facts straight? For me, in your regard it’s about tone. You want to “attack” (your interesting choice of words) – well what about simple, diplomatic factual persuasion? No, you’d rather come off like a bull in a china shop. If you DO want to bury the hatchet, then you’ll can cop to this approach of yours, and admit that when I said (actually factual stuff about DD) that guys who continuously get hurt and don’t contribute over the course of a couple of years isn’t the same as cutting established, pro bowl players.
Can you do that? Or are you going to “attack” me again?
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me clarify one other thing...
…before the semantics police come in again: when I mention ‘niggling details’ it’s not on whether you are correcting someone for getting something wrong, btu it’s taking an idle comment about something, like passer rating, and then turning it into a piss match in order for you to sound correct about something that wasn’t even the topic in the first place. That’s internet bullshit at its finest, and big low does this in spades. OLD.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you..
… posted about passer ratings. ChiFan13 and I both responded, using different arguments, saying that passer ratings were not a very good tool to look at performance against the Lions (or in an individual game).
And you got upset.
I have no idea how passer rating wasn’t the topic, when you brought up passer rating.
Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, perceptions are everything
where did I say don’t get your facts straight?
But if you’re a main author like ChiFan then you owe it to the visitors to perhaps be niggling less on details.
First, that’s where.
Second, I do exactly what you say most of the time. Am I always diplomatic? No. Neither are you.
Third, I’ll reply to your new message. It’s not an idle comment. QB rating, as big stated, is better over a long period of time (season). I was trying to help, and I will make sure to turn this place into BCB.
Fourth, don’t get mad at us for attacking when you childishly posted links to Wikipedia on different shades of blue to big_low. THAT is childish.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 8, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha.
You can’t admit it: you came off as an a-hole in our first encounter and now back off making any road towards an actual apology. So, you’re still an a-hole and apparently proud of it. Good for you. You know what happens when a-hols get into some people’s faces? They get it back. I’m not an a-hole unless provoked, whereas you provoke people because you’re an a-hole. There’s a big difference wheatever your real name is.
And just as I thought, Capt. Semantics, you clung to the one example I went back and clarified, so go fetch boy and try again.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You won't defend your argument this time
Instead, you chose personal attacks.
Fly away, little bird.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 8, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look...
… at what I wrote? You are the one who has said, multiple times, even after I explicitly denied it, that I was a “moderator” here.
The really ironic thing is that you run around crying about my tone, and ChiFan13’s tone, while you post sarcastic comments about shades of blue.
If you can’t handle having your comments responded to, or being corrected, then maybe blogs are not the place for you.
Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
… if you are going to use bad arguments, you should expect to be called out on them.
QB ratings are not good ways to analyze individual games. They are better tools analyze larger samples, such as full seasons. That is the point.
I don’t argue about shades of blue. I argue about bad arguments.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's your problem:
I made a factual observation about Kyle Orton’s passer rating. You tried to create an argument out of thin air.
No, you make it about this .
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.
Z. He doesn't need an exclamation point. He is one.
by PopeFlick on Oct 8, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And...
… I made a factual observation about how how passer ratings for individual games were not very helpful.
And I am still trying to figure out what I am moderating. Can you help me out?
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Oct 8, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After I post this comment I am going to close the comments on this post and
consider this issue closed.
If you have further questions or concerns, lets take this conversation offline. Feel free to email me.
WCG is my site. I control all content and decisions about the who and the what of the site. I have been 10 times busier at work than when I took the gig and needed some help. I have asked ChiFan13 to help me out with posting duties. He has volunteered to help me in keeping the conversation going in the comment section and he keeps an eye out for spam and any commenting that may get out of hand. That is his capacity. Any warnings or deleting of comments or correcting of facts is at my discretion. I am always looking to find new opinions, therefore if I see a fan post that I deem worthy of front page attention then I will promote it to the front page. In the future I will try to mark them as promotions, so there is no confusion.
The way I intend for the site to work is by looking at it as two sites. Above the line (main page) is mine. I intend it to be accurate, however, you cannot blog without opinion. I do not knowingly post anything with the knowledge that I may be using bogus info. If I am again shoot me an email and I’ll clear it up. To that affect the same applies for any post that ChiFan13 makes. Below the line (comments section) is yours. By yours I want it to be an open forum to discuss ideas and thoughts, that said WCG is apart of a larger network. I have a boss and they put their time and money into this site, so there are still rules. I try to very hard to stay out of things and let you all determine the direction of the comments. I have been lenient almost to a fault in allowing the readers to say and do what they want. What this site cannot become is a place to attack another commenter. If I wanted that I would have started a message board. If somebody is posting with facts you do not believe to be true, there is not need to attack that person, simply create your own comment stating your side. No need to even bring the previous comment into it.
Also realize that there is a difference between differing opinions and incorrect information. There is never a need to call someone stupid or an a**hole, regardless of how wrong they may be. This goes for anybody commenting in this section and that includes myself and ChiFan. People at this site have different levels of knowledge when it comes to the Bears, NFL and football in general. They may be making a statement they think is accurate based on the information they have. Instead of attacking them or resorting to name calling a simple “FYI” comment with the correct info would suffice. On the flip side if you do post a comment that is factually wrong (even if you believe it is correct) and somebody attempts to correct the info, you can’t take it personally unless they get nasty about it.
Hopefully, that answers any questions. If it has not please send me an email and we can work things out.
As always thanks for everybody’s participation.
WCG
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
by Adam T on Oct 8, 2008 8:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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