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so...about the williams wall

when are we going to find out if they are actually going to be suspended? i don't think they're really guilty of anything steroids-related, but they did violate league rules agreed upon in the collective bargaining agreement. metcalf did his time earlier this year for a similar situation. i think the league needs to revisit this stuff as is, but for the time being, the rules are the rules. if they actually didn't play last weekend, i'm pretty sure minny would have lost to detroit.

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I heard the judge was supposed to make some type of ruling

this Friday.

Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!

by Adam T on Dec 11, 2008 2:52 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I am super ticked about this

The league took forever on that decision and it meant we had to play them and they got to play against Detroit. Look, rules are rules and if you break them, you should have to pay the price. Everyone is acting like their is no way it was used to cover for steroids and that is not true. They may very well have been doing steroids, but because they were taking diaretics that are considered illegal, we’ll never know.

Kick those boys out of the league.

What if the judge says yes they are suspended and they make the playoffs? Will they have to miss a playoff game now. They are suspended for 4 games and there are only 3 left. If it wraps to next season and they get to play in the playoffs, I’ll be even more upset!!

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 11, 2008 3:29 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

That whole “due process” thing is a real bitch, ain’t it? What were the founding fathers thinking when they came up with THAT crap?

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 11, 2008 11:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That judge is stalling. The decision could have been made already. The NFL took forever and it was unnecessary.

When has the NFL taken 4 weeks after a drug test to come up with a suspension. They are allowing this to be stalled until early next season so it won’t hurt the playoffs.

I wouldn’t be proud of these players, I would be disappointed in them. We have had our share of players screw up and it ticks me off every time. I don’t make excuses for Tank Johnson, Cedric Benson, Ayenbedejio, or Metcalf.

Your just ticked because you are barely hanging on and you need these two cheaters to win.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 12:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously?

You want to compare a convicted felon like Tank Johnson to a couple of guys that were trying to cut weight? Or a habitually drunken loser like Cedric Benson?

Oh, and the judge said that he had gotten 4 1/2 months of evidence dumped into his lap in this case. These tests apparently occurred back in Training Camp. The NFL obviously didn’t show any sense of urgency in getting this matter resolved. . .why should the judge? Hell, as long as you’re spinning conspiracy theories over there, I could just as easily say that the joke known as Roger Goodell waited as long to announce this as he did expressly to affect the playoff picture in the NFL.

Maybe your guys that were in violation of the substance abuse policy should have had a better idea of what their rights actually were. I’m guessing that the lack of education that Chicago players had on such things is somehow Minnesota’s fault, too, yes?

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 7:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, I never blamed Minnesota for my players screwing up

Read my comments throughout this thread. I blame the players 100%. They are athletes. They all know that their are drugs, supplements, whatever that can cause them to get suspended and that even if the drug is not on the banned list it should be checked with the trainer to make sure. Anyone who is trying to play by the rules will do that. This excuse crap is stupid. I feel that way about all players including Ayenbedejio (Brendon’s brother) and Metcalf.

I didn’t realize this started in training camp, but yeah, I think that is nuts! It should not take that long to decide something. They announced the players mid season and it took several weeks to come up with a penalty. This whole process is way too long. How does a player get a full season when they broke rules?

As far as the other players, my point was that we lose players to suspensions like everyone else and that I put it on the players and I’m not proud of them for it.

I think you made a bunch of arguments that don’t have anything to do with what I said.

And by the way, everyone knows you can’t take diaretics in the NFL. At least the players do, and of course after this most NFL fans do as well. Those guys knew whether the water pills were on the banned list or not. And I’m sure they know why.

I know those dudes could lose some wait, but that doesn’t mean that they were only taking it to cut wait. Regardless they didn’t check out there stuff which is what they are suppose to do.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, come on. . .

Take one good look at Pat Williams and try to convince anybody he’s roiding up.

If the NFL, or anybody else, is so sure that the Williams’ or Deuce McAllister or Charles Grant or Will Smith is roiding up, there are other tests that they can do to make that determination. I’m sure that any of those players, knowing that they aren’t taking actual steroids, would have no problems submitting to them.

The fact of the matter remains that the players taking these things were under the impression that they were all-natural. They were advertised as being all-natural. The NFL, on the other hand, KNEW that that wasn’t the case, and failed to inform everybody of this. The league is quite lucky that they avoided another Korey Stringer situation in this case. I can’t imagine the level of trouble the league would have been in if they had withheld this information and somebody had died on the field because of it.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not claiming they are roiding

I don’t put it past anyone though. Would it help them. Heck yeah, huge guys like that getting even stronger. Yeah, it is possible, but I’m not saying that is the reason they took it.

Why aren’t they checking out their drugs or supplements? The NFL tells all players to check anything they put in their body.

The NFL could have done more, but the players have to responsible no matter what! This isn’t the first time a player used the excuse it wasn’t on the label. Was it?

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not getting into this arguement

but doesn’t the NFL provide a phone number for players to call to check on this stuff? Perhaps players are just going to have to call on everything regardless of what is on the label.

Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!

by Adam T on Dec 12, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The only thing I know for sure is that

they are instructed in every training camp that anything they put into their body they should have approved by their trainer even if it doesn’t show anything banned on the label. The tell those guys not to trust labels because these cases happen every year. This isn’t the first or the last time that excuse will be used.

Also, I heard that there is a sign in every locker room as well saying the same thing, but I only heard that once. The other I have seen reported many times.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, there is

And Bernard Berrian has been quoted as saying he’s called it a few times and hasn’t gotten an answer. This from a line that’s supposed to be manned 24/7.

Fine service that the NFL provides right there.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Failing to see the point...

That’s just bureaucracy in action. You’re saying you’ve never called any sort of government agency (e.g. DMV, County Administration, etc.) and not gotten a response?

I mean, I understand what you’re saying. But then again, Berrian could be lying. Who would want to lose their teammates? Point is, none of us know.

I'M A MAN! I'M 22!

by ChiFan13 on Dec 12, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what does...

… government bureaucracy have to do with the NFL’s hotline?

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 7:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oh...

… it all makes sense now.

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 11:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's not. . .however

Bumetanide is something that’s only supposed to be available via prescription. The fact that StarCaps contained this diuretic is not just violation of a league’s anti-doping policy, but a violation of federal law, specifically those of the Food and Drug Administration. This probably explains why the StarCaps people have basically shut down their operation. They’re going to get sued to bejeezus and back by everybody that they didn’t tell that used this product, not just five NFL players.

Deuce McAllister said that he had been taking StarCaps since 2004. He also said that he did, indeed, send them to the league laboratories before he began taking them, and the league said nothing. The league learned in 2006 that substance was in these StarCaps, which means that the formula obviously changed from 2004 to 2006, and the league chose not to tell their players.

At best, that’s grossly negligent on the part of the National Football League.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is negligence on the NFL for sure. No argument on that.

I will say that they have not presented their reasons why they didn’t disclose info on this drug, but I seriously doubt they have a good reason.

Players still are making excuses in this league, and I don’t support any who do that. I understand the gripe, but these guys need to man up and say, I messed up by not checking.

That is beef with the players.

My beef with the NFL is their reporting of the drug to the players, which I’m waiting to hear why on and also them not acting faster on the suspensions which to me is inexcusable!

Unless their is more info I don’t have the Williams Wall, Duece, Smith, and the rest should be suspended. The NFL needs to make some changes, but players need to take responsibility. If a player did call and get an ok, that player alone should be exonerated.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously
Take one good look at Pat Williams and try to convince anybody he’s roiding up.

Do you seriously believe that you can tell that Pat Williams wasn’t juicing by looking at him? You have to be kidding me…

You don’t know much about steroids, do you?

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know enough about them

To know that Pat Williams isn’t on them.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Can you prove that he is?

Seriously, we could do this all day.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 12, 2008 7:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly my point

Neither of us truly know. So your claim that he isn’t on them and my claim that he is are irrelevant.

I'M A MAN! I'M 22!

by ChiFan13 on Dec 12, 2008 7:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

how so?

Just because he is fat?

I would really like to know how looking at Pat Williams can tell you that he isn’t juicing. Please do tell.

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 7:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

injunction suspended

The players can play for at least two more weeks.

And #23… you should do some research. The banned substance was not named on the supplement. The league new that the supplement contained a banned substance. The league DID NOT tell the players union.

And kick the boys out of the league? Seriously? I love how you say that we will never know if they used illegal steroids, but we should kick them out of the league anyway. Awesome.

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 11, 2008 5:19 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I never claimed it was on a bottle, I know this story very well in fact.

There are signs in every single NFL locker room that specifically says before taking any supplement you should check it with your trainer. The list is where you start, then if not on the list and you still aren’t sure that is approved or not, then you take it to the trainer. These guys are all taught this in training camp.

Come on, these athletes are not stupid. They knew that diaretics mask steroids and were not aloud. Just because one item is not on the list does not make it a legal item. They will be suspended it is a matter of time. Unfortunately they cheated and have played half the season.

You really are wrong to call me out on this issue. You assumed a lot of info that I never posted. It is fine to disagree. Are you for the players getting no suspension even though they decided to not check their water pills?

If so, we will disagree.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 11, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow....so much makes sense

Government (in this case, the NFL) has to spell out everything for its citizens. No such thing as responsibility anymore….you can just blame it on someone else!

I'M A MAN! I'M 22!

by ChiFan13 on Dec 12, 2008 12:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is the NFL's fault. They let stupid people play their sport with cry baby excuses instead of taking responsibility.

Bad NFL, you are so mean. I mean not letting players take drugs that hide steroid use. It is called common sense. These guys have it. They are making excuses.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 12:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, it always is

It’s always big brother’s fault. Metcalf can get suspended, but not the Williams boys.

Anyone wanna bet the over-under that the judge is a Vikings fan?

I'M A MAN! I'M 22!

by ChiFan13 on Dec 12, 2008 12:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

The Metcalf and Williams situations are not anything alike.

Metcalf took something that knowingly had a banned substance in it.

The Williams took something that DID NOT have the banned substance listed as an ingredient. The NFL knew this, but chose not to share it with anyone.

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

there is...

… a reason that this case in the courts and others have not been.

This case is different, as the NFL had information about the supplement that they did not share. The supplement DID NOT list the banned substance in the ingredients.

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear what you're saying here and agree the situations are different, but honestly...

Does it matter? I mean really?

Do you think that NFL players do not know about water pills masking steroids in drug tests?
Do you think they had no clue that diaretics are not allowed in the NFL?
Even if they didn’t know the previous two. Do you think they didn’t know they were suppose to check anything they put into their body with the trainer? (I’m guessing food is not checked, but any drug or supplement is)

The players can’t plead ignorance when they chose to take something without checking it out. Not all drugs are on that list. In fact new ones come out all the time. Is the NFL responsible there. No. The players have to check their stuff before taking something. That is how it works. If you don’t, you are just blaming others.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

All indications

are that the Williams boys did check with the league regarding StarCaps and the league did not tell them that the drug contained the diuretic despite the fact that the league knew that StarCaps contained the diuretic.

See the link to the Court’s Order I posted below.

When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo

by gwood on Dec 12, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just for my own info

If the league didn’t tell anybody about it, how did it come out that they knew? Did they disclose that? Didn’t I also read somewhere that the league said they sent a memo?

thanks

Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!

by Adam T on Dec 12, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The league

commissioned a test on the StarCaps drug, the results of which were published in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology in november 2007. The results showed that StarCaps contained the diuretic, bumetanide, for which the Williams tested positive.

I also remember reading about a memo, but the Court Order doesn’t mention a memo sent out by the league.

When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo

by gwood on Dec 12, 2008 12:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the info

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

So ithe results were published and the ingredients were known?

Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!

by Adam T on Dec 12, 2008 8:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You don't like confrontation do you Windy?

Call them cheaters… you know you want to. Fight, Fight, Fight.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 9:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well, looks like the judge delayed the judgment

according to sportscenter. so the williams get to play at least the next 2 weeks. this is a bit ridiculous. i think the whole policy is questionable, and that it needs to be changed, but other players have already served time (like metcalf) for basically the same thing. the nfl needs to change their policy in the offseason, but allowing the williams to keep playing when others have already been serving/served suspensions for similar issues is not okay.

by guy incognito on Dec 12, 2008 12:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

it is not...

… just the Williams.

Again, this case is different. Others who got suspended for the same issue are also not serving their suspensions (though one or two have chosen to not appeal).

Bringing moderation to a place I don't moderate.

visit the mindful mission

by big_lowitzki on Dec 12, 2008 9:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What was Metcalf taking and what was his story why?

I heard it the other day and it made me laugh, but I forget what it was.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Regardless of whether or not they are suspended.

The NFL endangered the lives of it’s players in withholding this information. When the trainers recommend a substance to the players to help them make weight, and that substance contains a diuretic that could endanger their health, it is an OSHA violation. Whether or not they get suspended, (and I hope they don’t considering the situation) the pressing concern is that the NFL is endangering the health of it’s employees in order to preserve it’s image.

Last year, the NFL suspended Wade Wilson, the Cowboys QB Coach for taking HGH.

Why was he taking HGH?

“The thing that I was taking said that they would improve the symptoms that I was having due to complications from diabetes,” from the Dallas Morning News.

Hopefully, this will see immediate correction during the off-season, but I don’t anticipate that unless the NFL loses the case. Otherwise, I expect it will be revised during the renegotiation of the labor agreement when that comes up.

by Robert Rence on Dec 12, 2008 11:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

At the same time,

eat healthy. Go for a walk. Do some sort of physical activity. Are we as a society turning into a “right now or no good” group? Did someone force that diuretic down his throat?

I'M A MAN! I'M 22!

by ChiFan13 on Dec 12, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And considering they've got the money for it.

Why don’t they just pay a person to prep their meals and give them an exercise regimen during the off-season. The reason they took StarCaps (for the Vikes) was to make the weight clauses in their contracts. I’m sure they do plenty of physical activity during the off-season, but considering they check weight ONCE during training camp, there isn’t the same stress on it for the players that there would be in a sport like boxing.

by Robert Rence on Dec 12, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure how long this link will be good

but here is the Order issued by the judge staying the suspensions of the Williams boys. It contains all of the facts:

http://tinyurl.com/5eb746

While the CBA states that the players are responsible for whatever is in their body, it also places with the NFL the responsibility of informing the players regarding certain drugs if the players request such information. It appears that the NFL did not provide these players with the necessary information, despite the fact that the NFL had that information.

I don’t want the Williams playing either, but I do not think they deserve to be suspended. The NFL did not uphold its end of the bargain.

When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo

by gwood on Dec 12, 2008 11:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

"if the players request such information"

This is where the rubber will meet the road. Nowhere have I seen anything to suggest the “StarCaps 7” ever asked the NFL about StarCaps. The players contention is that the NFL should have told the players everything they knew, even if the NFL was not solicited for said information.

--Torch

by torch on Dec 12, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There was a line

in the Order stating that one of the players (the actual player is not specified) testified that they had their representative call the league about the drug and the league told the representative that there was nothing banned in StarCaps (bottom of page 15 to the top of page 16).

The key to all this, IMO, is that the league official (Lombardo, I think) testified that even if one of the players or their representatives called the Hotline, Lombardo would not have told them anything specific about the drug. He simply would have told them that it is advisable to avoid ALL over-the-counter drugs.

When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo

by gwood on Dec 12, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the NFL said it was good to one player, then they are to blame for that player.

Everyone else is on their own. If the NFL did that, this is the first time that I have read that a player specifically asked the NFL and was told it was ok.

If this is the case, I will switch my view, but I don’t understand why that point if true has not been more clearly defined in the press. I have read tons of stories and watched lots of video of debates on this and never has a person mentioned any player checking with the league first.

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My only response

is that the press never seems to give the full story, regardless of what they are trying to report on.

When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo

by gwood on Dec 15, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's only a hotline if people pick up the phone.
"You’ve got to take some responsibility and call into that hotline [to inquire about the legality of certain products]," Berrian said on Sirius Radio, per the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. "But I know one thing about that hotline. I’ve called twice before and actually never gotten a hold of anybody sometimes. So even when you try to do the right thing sometimes it is still hard to get a hold of somebody and really find out what you’re really taking."

From PFT

by Robert Rence on Dec 12, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That is crappy. I"m sure this system is about to see changes.

What would you say if the player failed to check the drug?
Are they responsible then to check first?

Kick it to me... I'm open!

by #23 on Dec 12, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In order for your title to hold

You have to be of the opinion that this is the rational, logical methodology to be followed:

1) Player wants to use supplement X
2) Player calls the hotline, where there is no answer
3) Player thinks to himself “Well they didn’t tell me no, I tried to call, it must be ok to use”

Even if they hotline is broken, it doesn’t absolve the player from the faulty judgment used to get to step 3 from step 2…

--Torch

by torch on Dec 15, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Quoted from ESPN.com news services December 3, 2008

In issuing the suspensions, the league reiterated the section of its policy that reads:

"You and you alone are responsible for what goes into your body. Claiming that you used only legally available nutritional supplements will not help you in an appeal. … Even if they are bought over-the-counter from a known establishment, there is currently no way to be sure that they contain the ingredients listed on the packaging or have not been tainted with prohibited substances …

“If you take these products, you do so AT YOUR OWN RISK! For your own health and success in the league, we strongly encourage you to avoid the use of supplements altogether, or at the very least to be extremely careful about what you choose to take.”

The NFL also said it sent two notifications about StarCaps on Dec. 19, 2006 — one to NFL club presidents, general managers and head athletic trainers and the second to NFLPA executive Stacy Robinson, who oversees the steroid policy for the union. That letter, according to the league, advised that StarCaps had been added to the list of prohibited dietary supplement companies

By the way this statement got me ban from the Daily Norseman blog site. I guess they can’t handle the truth. I don’t know what is the truth here but I guess the it struck a nerve. These athletes who make a hansome salary need to know what goes into their bodies no matter what crap reason they use. This was known in 2006 chrisakes and they still use.

by shazam23 on Dec 18, 2008 7:54 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

See, you're doing it again

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 20, 2008 8:08 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

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