Fans who attended night practice...
by sirus19x on Aug 3, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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'"Grossman connected with tight end Fontel Mines on a deep seam route and threw a strike on a deep out that was dropped by Brandon Rideau. But the former Florida star was booed by many in the crowd of 24,977 following most of his incompletions... In fairness to Grossman, he often had little time to throw while working behind the second team offensive line. On one occasion, he avoided a sack by heaving the ball into the stands." - Larry Mayer (www.chicagobears.com)
Are you serious? You do understand Practice is where a team goes to get better and get into rhythm. How can you boo your own team's players at a practice? I don't care if he fumbled every snap. Grossman is not my favorite quarterback in the league, maybe not even on this team, but when the guy is working on getting better the last thing he should have is Bear's fans booing him. Maybe it's just me, but I don't boo a player on a team I'm a fan of because he is having a bad game/night. I'll boo him if his name is Cedric Benson and I know the guy just doesn't want to work. If you do feel like bashing your own players then do it (It will REALLY help them play better), just don't cheer for them the next time they have a good play, because then you just look like Giants & Jets fans.
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hahaha
but I don’t boo a player on a team I’m a fan of because he is having a bad game/night. I’ll boo him if his name is Cedric Benson and I know the guy just doesn’t want to work.
don’t boo him for what you can see him doing, boo him for what you think and have no way of knowing. awesome.
by mike b on Aug 3, 2008 12:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No... That's Awesome!
That you take a sarcastic joke literally.
by sirus19x on Aug 3, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speechless
Thank you for telling us, individual fans of the Chicago Bears in the United States of America, how to cheer on our team. Kudos for telling us to stick behind a quarterback who is about as consistent as rain. I will continue to wish that Rex had not been re-signed at season’s end last year.
Rahulsriram, saying that the “staff and the educated fans will see this” (the maturation of #8) doesn’t mean anything. I’m glad that he learned to throw the ball away. In his third year. I wonder how long it’ll take him to stop bungling snaps from a Pro Bowl center….five years? Six, maybe?
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as soon as...
the other quarterbacks stop having problems handling the snap.
You do know that Rex isn’t the only quarterback who has struggled with Kruetz’s snaps, right?
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 4, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
some more...
It is a bit of a challenge to narrow down fumbles in the stat lines (i.e. is the fumble from a hand off, a dropped snap, etc..), but here is the number of fumbles per game for the three Bear’s QB’s over the last few years:
Rex – 0.59375
Orton – 0.777777778
Griese – 0.538461538
These are a bit skewed because they treat each game as a full game, regardless of how minutes they played.
Now… I am sure we go get more elaborate on this and narrow it down (i.e. look at play by play logs), but from the numbers above Griese and Rex have similar fumble numbers and Orton’s is a decent amount higher.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 4, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, but....
I see three average-to-below-average QB’s in that group, and I see a perennial Pro Bowl center. There is a possibility that maybe Kreutz is a little off when it comes to snaps, but after seeing the numbers and the list of QB’s, I think it’s more the QB’s.
My overall point was that I’m tired of carrying around an oxygen tank every single time I watch a Bears game with Rexy at the helm. If it isn’t a boneheaded pass, it’s a dropped snap. While our strengths are defense and special teams, they can only carry us so far for so long. I’d even be happy with a steady mediocre offense, just not the huge ups and huge downs we get from Rex.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, so you just don't like Rex.
That is fine, but the points about how he fumbles so much is not really what you want to say. Just say what you mean. BTW, Pro Bowl or not Kruetz causes fumbled snaps. I don’t blame any of our QB’s for it at all. I heard old Jim Miller telling 670 score how he had problem with Kruetz’s snaps back in the day. Olin has a problem and needs to work on it.
How good is Eli Manning? You might compare his stats over his first 4 seasons, to Grossman over his first 4. You’ll be surprised. Eli has more games, a way better line, and way better talent around him and he still plays like Grossman. Give Rex blocking and a running game and he’ll be way better. No QB was good last year because it was an impossible group of players around them.
I love people who forget that football is one of the few truly team sports. How did Bulger look last season with a crappy OL. He had a RB and great WR’s and looked, uh, aweful!
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your last paragraph....
...but, minus the first five games of 2006, he has not been consistent.
About Eli….you’re exactly right, he had much superior talent around him. Our lack of playmaking ability at RB and WR shows off Rex in a worse light when he does bad, because everyone blames him. Granted, many were calling for Eli’s head before last season.
As much as a great RB, WR’s, and OL helps, the quarterback alone is the one who makes decisions to throw to what receivers. Even if we exclude last season, when he was behind an OL that was close to worse than Notre Dame, Rex has shown that he cannot consistently make good decisions with the football. Football is a team sport, no one is doubting that. But I’ll compare it with a car metaphor: If the battery is functioning at a subpar level, the rest of the engine suffers, agreed?
Bottom line: All I want is a QB who won’t lose the game for us. I’ve seen Rex lose games for us before. I truly hope he does better, because my liver would probably wake up if he did. I want him to succeed, but after three years, pardon me if I’m not optimistic.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
people like to ignore
the good oline in 06. still the shitty decision making.
by mike b on Aug 4, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or...
and super bowl apperance.
Rex Grossman Super Bowl Season (2006)
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rat
16 16 262 480 54.6 3,193 6.7 23 20 21 142 73.9
Eli Manning Super Bowl Season (2007)
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rat
16 16 297 529 56.1 3,336 6.3 23 20 27 217 73.9
by sirus19x on Aug 4, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the difference between those two?
That little Super Bowl ring.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah and Eli's defense was outstanding.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly he did a lot of good things in 06
outside of the first 5 games, which were a third of the season. He was practically a rookie that year guys! He had, in my opinion an outstanding coming out party. Had we known that Olin was causing some of the fumbles, we probably would have cut him a little slack. He got nervous which was bad and lost his composure. If he can overcome that, he’s a pretty talented guy.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not as optimistic either, but has it been 3 years?
An injury prone QB I will agree with everyone.
3 years as a starter, no way.
From my perspective the Super Bowl year was his first season as a starter which is a big learning year for all QB’s.
Last season he got pummled for 3 games and didn’t play nearly as bad as the numbers showed. Berrian dropped a pretty big TD early and yeah he was rattled. Fans booing, getting hit hard and often. But he held onto the ball when he got hit.
Down the stretch when he came back he played another 3 games or whatever and looked like he was making good decisions.
That is all he has played imo. Unless you want to count about 2 games of play time in the previous 2 years.
I’ll agree he has knowledge and should understand the system, but for QB’s we all know you have to play to get better. He has about 1 full year and a half of experience. Eli has 4 full seasons. Grossman is still showing improvement. He could be better, but like you said, I’m not holding my breath. I’m just willing to see if he does or not.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand...
I get cranky around training camp because I have to constantly hear all the bullshit from Jerry and Lovie gushing about their QB’s.
He’s shown improvement, but there have been games where he couldn’t have tried to look more confused. I’m tired of the ups and downs. I want him desperately to improve, not for his sake, but for the team’s. If I, a lowly fan, get depressed and pissed off over Rex’s ups and downs, how must his teammates feel?
I’m giving him the 2008 season. I will give him credit where credit is due, but I will sure as hell bash him if he continues on the road out of professional football.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if grossman wins
this job, it will be because he elects to throw the ball away when the play isnt there. Him throwing the ball away in the end zone,as reported, is a sign of his continued growth. the staff and educated fans will see this…. what happened the other day is embarassing.
i couldnt agree with the post more: if you’re gonna boo, boo him all the time. just dont jump on bandwagons when he leads the team on a super bowl run.
by rahulsriram on Aug 3, 2008 1:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
If he continues to be smarter about throwing the ball away, he will be very much improved. If he holds onto the ball when he gets hit (which he did very well at most of last season when he played), again he will be improved. And if him and Kruetz can get the snap right he’ll be much improved. All of those can happen and are not unrealistic to think could happen.
What I don’t expect from Grossman:
- to be an elusive pocket passer (although he needs to step up in the pocket way more often)
- to be a good runner with the ball
- to never have the ball knocked out of his hands
- to not make 2-3 bad picks a year (everyone has few bad picks)
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
jumping the gun
I highly doubt old Rex will lead this team to another SB. He can’t stop himself from making mistakes. Opposing defenses just rush up the middle against Rexy and he’s bound to make a horrible play. He’s only 6’1,” apparently he can’t see anything over the rush and his own linemen. Scrambling is not an option either cause he’ll fumble after stumbling over a blade of grass. I’m not sure if Orton will be much better, but he’s certainly not going to turn the ball over as much. Lovie and co. should give the nod to Kyle as long as he performs adequately in the pre-season.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Aug 4, 2008 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fans' rights
Being a die-hard fan of any team allows some idiot fans a sense of entitlement to boo even the ball boy if he fails to get the ball on the field in time. The fact still remains that Rex has yet to display any consistency in his career. This year’s training camp is no exception. One bad, one good day. How about something in the middle, an even-keel performance. He must have ADD or something….world beater one series, crap on a stick the next. I’m shifting my support to Orton from Grossman because he seems to at least be mediocre/average most of the time, while Rex’s highs and lows are too much to take. Especially for a team with a very strong defense and the #1 special teams in the league. The Bears need a QB to make some plays but not to put their defense and ST in bad field positions.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Aug 3, 2008 5:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
From what I've read from various sources
There have been a few highs and a few lows from both Orton and Grossman, but both have been pretty average for most days of training camp. I think that so far fits into your even keeled description your looking for. It just so happed that one of his two bad performance was in front of the fans at Soldier Field. He had about 2 outstanding days and several ordinary days.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's
alright for fans to boo their own team. Yes, when analyzed it seems dumb to boo your own team, but in the end, do the players really care? Grossman knows he’s not the most popular guy in Chicago, and I’m sure it really doesn’t affect him one way or another (of course now I’m making assumptions as well). The fans should be able to boo if they want to, and the only time I could think of them doing so is when they’re really frustrated over their team or a player (like many Bears fans are over Grossman). Grossman knows that many fans are frustrated over his erratic play the past few years, so I’d be surprised if this affects him that much.
by rea5661 on Aug 4, 2008 1:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fans can do whatever they want, but if they want a guy to fail keep booing.
Whether a player will admit it or not, it does affect their self confidence. When people are yelling at you to play better it makes you more nervous and afraid to make mistakes and instead of letting the game come to you and seeing the game in slow mo, it feels like everything is flying at you in super speed and your praying you don’t make a mistake. Not an excuse, but as a fan, I would rather give our players the best shot to build up their confidence before the season instead of trying to rattle them. Boo in the regular season if you want, but let the guy practice and try to do his job.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
Whether a player will admit it or not, it does affect their self confidence. When people are yelling at you to play better it makes you more nervous and afraid to make mistakes and instead of letting the game come to you and seeing the game in slow mo, it feels like everything is flying at you in super speed and your praying you don’t make a mistake.
i’m sorry, but what are you basing this on?
by mike b on Aug 4, 2008 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any competition that I have been in in my life.
Whether it be sports or a test or school or work or anyplace. If people are downing you and yelling at you and you think your job is on the line and you are consistently having to make quick decisions it affects your judgement.
To some degree, I’m putting myself in the shoes of a QB and imagining. I obviously could be wrong, but I don’t think I’m way off. There is no facts to base it on, only opinion and natural reasoning if that is what you were wondering.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not the same level
Any competition that I have been in in my life.
pro anything requires mental toughness.
you don’t get to that level being a mental midget,
well unless you’re rex i guess.
by mike b on Aug 4, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you would be suprised.
A lot of guys were so talented and played only on talented teams that win state playoffs and win 9-11 games a year against much more inferior teams. The NFL is some of these guys first real consistent test against great competition.
Not all pros (no pun intended) are mentally tough. I’m sure you could name a dozen or so talented guys off the top of your head. Most of them aren’t QB’s, but some are. Then again I haven’t seen one rookie get the flack the Rex has gotten ever on a daily basis!
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its relative
i didn;t say that, but obviously there are morons and mental weaklings on the pro level
personally i have more problem with the fact he can’t see over the line and gets hurt all the time.
he makes mistakes he’s made since florida, not sure what epiphany we expect to occur.
by mike b on Aug 4, 2008 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But....
at least he’s improving! Just last week, he learned how to throw the ball away!
lol.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you can't make a real point so you move to sarcasm
Nice. Yes NFL QB’s improve over the course of their career at all kinds of things. Lot’s of QB’s in the NFL have to learn that. It is pretty natural for first or second year starters to have to go through the fire to learn to throw the ball away.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
I’m going to take that to heart, coming from the guy who told us not to boo little Rex, lest he get depressed. And you’re right, no rookie has ever gotten booed the way Rex has….mostly because Rex isn’t a rookie.
If you are a professional football player, getting booed and getting cheered come with the territory. If you are an accountant, numbers and calculators come with the territory. Rex has been here for three years, and not only that, but he was at the University of Florida (arguably one of the loudest NCAAF stadiums). If he hasn’t gotten over the booing, he needs to start looking for a job at Foot Locker. That’s the bottom line.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said rookie.
I said first year starter. He probably wasn’t booed in college since he was pretty awesome in college. They most likely cheered him. Remember he was drafted in the first round.
I’m not saying anything different about Rex than I would say for most human beings. Booing can have an affect on people when they make a bad play. Sure it would be nice to think he was deaf or doesn’t have an ounce of emotion in his body.
Why are you arguing this? Are you a robot or something? Have you never done something wrong on the job and been scolded? How did you feel? You have never had a boss looking over your shoulder? I’m not saying that it doesn’t go with the job. Absolutely. I’m just saying quit booing a practice.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've most certainly screwed up before
But, my point is that you have no right to tell other fans how to root for our team. I agree that it is a little excessive to boo during a practice, but, Rex and all of us should expect it.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine.
We disagree on whether to boo or not during practice, but I’m only giving an opinion. It isn’t a law or anything. My opinion is let the guys practice and give them both a chance to succeed this season. If it gets bad, let a couple things go and give whoever plays a chance to get it together. If they keep doing bad, then boo the coaches for keeping the guy around and the player for stinking.
People can and will do what they want. I think it is fair that they have an opinion, and it is fair that I have a different opinion. We all have a right to have our own views. It is America.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember him throwing the ball away last year as well.
He looked pretty collected and smart with the ball most of the time in his second stint as a starter. He also took less shots down the field and used his check down much more often. It was something Griese did often last season and he may have been taking notes.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrific
He needs to show bigger improvement than that (less INT’s and lost fumbles would be a good start), otherwise he won’t be a Bear.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So tell me who would have done well as a QB without a OL to protect or any running game and receivers dropping tons of passes?
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by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
An OL and WR dropping passes is not an excuse for INT's
If Rex has supposedly gotten so good at throwing the ball away, he would’ve been better last year.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is what Rex does...
if the players around him stinks, he tries to carry the team on his back and make plays he shouldn’t make. He hasn’t got good enough to do that yet. He did that in 06 and the start of 07. Later in 07, he did what you mentioned and threw the ball away. If we are going to critique every play, then let’s differintiate between 06, 07 early, and 07 late. He has only played in 32 games or the equivalent of 2 regular seasons. All 07 games were played with a super crappy offense.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to measure progress with that heep of crap around him. All QB's play bad when getting hit.
Look at Peyton against the Chargers and Brady against the Giants. And believe me their OL’s are much better than ours and the WR’s are golden and then RB’s are far superior, but when you get hit, you don’t play as well and are more likely to make bad throws.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but what I meant...
...was that if Rex was seriously improving on throwing the ball away, he would’ve done so more last year. Instead, he threw more balls to the other team than out of bounds.
No one will argue that he had one of history’s worst offenses in front of him last year. Downright abysmal. That’s why I’m giving him another year. While we don’t have a true deep threat minus Hester, we don’t have a horrible corp of WR’s now. Bennett has been a great surprise, Rashied Davis is usually pretty reliable. Unless our offense is piss-poor like last year, which looks like it isn’t the case, it will be on Rex this year.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 5, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
It is on him this year. He really didn’t play many games in his career, but he was evaluated like he had played 3 full seasons and it wasn’t the case. This city scrutinized him way too early, mostly because of the horrible Arizona game and then never let up.
I’m not convinced this WR group is good yet. Booker is the only proven receiver right now and is old and hasn’t been very good for several years although he was on Miami. I’m very curious to see this group play. I hope they are pretty strong, but that OL has to give whoever some time.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 5, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comes with the job
For me, when someone is a Bear, I love them until they prove to me that they can’t help our team. Blaming the fans solely for Rex’s lack of confidence is absolutely wrong.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 2:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry #23
That was meant as a reply. I forgot to hit the button. Again.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 4, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so basically...
if someone has a bad game you hate them and then if they have a good game you love them, right?
&
if you were at your job (or doing something) and the person you were trying to do a good job for came up to and yelled you suck and bashed you for every imperfection, it wouldn’t bother you?
by sirus19x on Aug 4, 2008 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really it is pretty similar.
I don’t recommend booing every QB that makes a bad play and then cheer them when they good play. That will affect their confidence to some degree. No one wants to feel hated.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really it is pretty similar.
not at all.
maybe if accounting required you do your job in front of ten of thousands of people while other accountants sat there trying to stop you, but otherwise its not even close, and requires completely different mind sets.
i don’t want players that can’t handle it, and the best can take whatever you can give them. they have to.
by mike b on Aug 4, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If someone did that to me at my job
I’d punch them in the ovaries.
I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad
by thecoolest on Aug 4, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem. I do that too.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soley? No, part of the problem, a little.
I’m not saying that is an excuse to play bad. He has to be a man and figure out how to overcome, but I do think factors like fans booing can play a part. I’m just saying it is practice. Let’s not be part of the problem. IF you love the team, let him try to get better and boo him once the season starts and he is playing horrible. Booing will not improve his performance, that is for sure.
Kick it to me... I'm open!
by #23 on Aug 4, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Support to the end
I love the Bears like most of you on here and I’ll cheer to the bitter end, but Rex has certainly been given a chance. He’s shown he can’t get it done over the long haul of the season. Consistency is King at QB and he doesn’t have it. He’s too short, can’t elude the rush, won’t step up in the pocket, has fumbleitis, and refuses to check down through his progressions.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Aug 5, 2008 9:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A+ post
I’m willing to give him another year. If he succeeds, no one here will be happier than I. If he doesn’t, I’ll want his head on a silver platter. And those four years back, preferrably.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
by ChiFan13 on Aug 6, 2008 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Stewie like
If he can redeem himself it would be one of the best sports stories of this short century. If not, send him to the guillotine!!!
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Aug 6, 2008 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you see what assholes the packer fans look like
chanting for favre when rodgers was playing, i don’t want us to look like those jerks
don’t boo rex in practice
by SamuraiMike50 on Aug 6, 2008 12:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Definitely concur
I know they love him more than cheese curds, but that’s truly classless. Rodgers is going to feel the Bears wrath this year. :)
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Aug 6, 2008 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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