Should I Stay or Should I Go? Lovie and The Tampa Two...
There's been a lot of argument that we are built for the Tampa Two defense, so we shouldn't consider changing it. It's also been a factor in the keep Lovie/fire Lovie debate. I'm not necessarily calling for the scrapping of our defense or coaches (though I wouldn't be heartbroken if it happened). I just want to show why it's a bogus argument.
Because a Cover Two defense requires a lot of system-specific players, it makes for some difficulty in transitioning to a new scheme. The two biggest options are the base 4-3 and the currently popular 3-4. The Jim Bates style 4-3 calls for bigger, mauling DT's (which we don't have) instead of the quicker get-up-the-field type of DT's (which we also don't have, oddly enough.) The linebacking corps is based more around the MLB than in the cover two. The secondary has to be more adept at playing man coverage rather than zone (again, ours are good at neither of these.) Switching to the 3-4 would require an almost complete top to bottom revamping of our defense. Switching to either of these schemes is going to take some time, and we will have a season or two of struggling, and that's assuming the new personnel works out.
If we're going to do it, now is the time. Not right this minute obviously, but this offseason. The argument against it is that we're built for the cover two. We may in fact be built for it, but it's been awfully poor building. Other than Lance Briggs, is there a single guy on our current defense that makes you think "we can't change because he's too valuable to us?"
Let's face it, Tommie Harris is done. He's been injured too many times, and I truly don't think that he's all that dedicated to being dominant again even if the injuries let up. The rest of our DT's are barely serviceable on a good day. Wale is doing just enough to try for a new contract, and Alex Brown could probably be useful in either of the other systems I've mentioned. Even if not, I love AB, but he's not the type of impact player that you build around.
As far as the linebackers go, Urlacher is at the end of the road, Briggs is good enough that he could probably excel in any system, and none of the others are worth losing sleep over (Pisa is good, but I don't think he's signed long term.) Should I even discuss the secondary? Other than sentimentality for Tillman, is there a single defensive back that you would be upset over losing? Hell, I can think of several I'd prefer to lose. Off the subject a little, but considering our coaches penchant for switching players from position to position, does it bother anyone else that Tillman, the one player who would probably benefit most from a position change, has never been moved to safety? I can only assume it's because the rest of the CB's are so bad that they can't afford to move him.
My point is not that we necessarily have to do away with the Tampa Two. I'm simply saying that if we're ever going to make the change, this is the offseason for it to happen. The few elite players we have are young enough that they can make it through a couple years of rebuilding and still see the other side of it, save for Urlacher. The Bears' upper management has some serious decisions to make, and they need to be made soon. Letting the defense rot away rather than blowing it up to rebuild can cost us valuable time, which Jay could be using to take us back to prominence.
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34 comments
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I'm for the 3-4
I love the 3-4 (always have!), and a change over might not take as long as some might think, Green Bay is doing OK after the switch…
I was wondering where the dropping MLB was vs. Cincinnati… I didn’t see him on many plays
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Oct 26, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
3-4
Where on earth are the Bears going to get the personnel to run the 3-4? They have to get a huge NT first. They then need to get 3-4 DE’s. Gilbert could probably fill that role but where the hell has he been? Ogun and Brown are too small. 3-4 LBs? Briggs and Urlacher could play the middle but who’s on the outside? Don’t even get me started on the secondary. I agree, I’d love to see the Bears switch to the 3-4, but that’s not happening. Not anytime soon anyways.
by McRipper on Oct 26, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Bears don’t have the personnel for the 3-4. We should just line up in goal line every down and hope their QB throws an inaccurate pass. Seems like it may be as successful as we were yetserday.
by brands735 on Oct 26, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well try this...
DE: Tommy Harris (6’3" 295 lbs) and Gilbert (6’5" 285 lbs) .
NT: Adams (6’ 310)
OLB: Adams (6’5" 285) & Ogun/Brown (6’4" 260/ 6’3 260)
MLB: Briggs (6’1 254) & Roach/HH (6’1" 234/ 6’4" 238)
SS: Alfalava
FS: Manning
CB: Tillman & whatever guy we can dig up with heartbeat.
The personnel are there, we just need a coach that can run it.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
by gaclaudy on Oct 26, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me Clarify
NT: Anthony Adams
OLB: Gaines Adams
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
by gaclaudy on Oct 26, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
forgive me but I don’t share your same enthusiasm.
Adams can’t and should not play NT. Being a fat tub of gue just doesn’t cut it. 3-4 NTs need to be at least 340 lbs and strong as an ox. He’s neither. He get’s manhandled by 1 lineman and he’ll be taking on at least 2 at NT. Anthony “Pork Chop and Chunky” Adams=Fail!! Tommy Harris could probably play DE in the 3-4 but he won’t for the Bears. I think he’s tied with Lovie’s fate, if Lovie’s gone, Harris will be cut. Gilbert, where is he? Why isn’t he getting PT? He seems to have the size and athleticism to play DE in 3-4.
I think Briggs and Urlacher could play MLBs in the 3-4. Both are tremendous in coverage and are great against the run. No problem there. OLB are primarily pass rushers in the 3-4 but are still counted on to cover time to time. Brown could probably match up with a TE in coverage but that’s about it. Ogun will be gone and Adams, who knows.
Secondary is the huge concern. Manning is terrible. If people can’t see that watching him play, then I don’t know what to tell you. Alfalava looks to be a pretty good SS and he’s been pretty good this year so far. Tillman is not the player he once was. Bowman is a bum and Vasher needs to get a job at a used car dealership.
I don’t believe the personnel is there. Aside from Briggs and Urlacher, who could probably play in any defensive scheme, this Bears defense is a joke and it has been since about week 4 of the 2007 season.
by McRipper on Oct 26, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Well I admit that some of pieces are like the old square in round peg, but hey it can’t be any worse than what we got right now. We do need to cut some people and sign the right people to run that scheme, but I think we have some of the bodies that could work in the new system.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
by gaclaudy on Oct 26, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
there are some parts that will work. Problem is, Urlacher will be 32 and Briggs will be 30 next year. This defensive foundation is getting old and in a hurry. The Bears just don’t want to accept that they need to rebuild. You have Cutler, Forte, Hester, Knox, and Olsen that are all young. That’s a good foundation to rebuild on.
The o-line is a disgrace. The Bears could have drafted Loadholt this year but decided to trade the pick and take with their 1st pick of the draft, surprise, a DT who can’t even get on the field. That would have been Chris Williams and Phil Loadholt as bookend tackles for the next 10 years. Sounds simple huh.
JA and Lovie should be fired alone for the negligence they’ve shown towards the o-line.
by McRipper on Oct 26, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't the best time to switch to the 3-4
With no impact draft picks, where are the Bears going to get their mammoth DT, 7-technique DE, and OLBs? Gaines and Brown aren’t suitable to play there cause I wouldn’t trust them in coverage, but I guess it could be a gradual transition.
"Repetition is only good when you've been winning." - Valet
by propheteer on Oct 31, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree the lack of draft picks is a problem
but it’s also a problem for fixing our current defense. I think we may be in trouble for another year or so.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Oct 31, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not really a result of drop coverage
but brown has a few picks in his career. more than pretty much anyone in the secondary except for 33. if da team can somehow cut the bs in half about all the 3rd and long conversions other teams tack on against us it would be a great and wonderful thing.
by reefermadness3 on Oct 31, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree they don't as of now
this would be an offseason decision, as JerBear50 said
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Oct 26, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we don't have the personnel for the 3-4.
That was my point. We don’t have the personnel to run any defense at this point. The players we have now may be T2 guys on paper, but in practice they have failed in spectacular fashion. Between injury and incompetence, the majority of our defense needs overhauling if we’re going to be honest, whether we stay with the T2 or not. If that’s the case, I don’t see the need to be locked into the same system.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Oct 27, 2009 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
scheme
isn’t so much a problem as executing. the bears don’t run that much cover 2 anymore, instead relying on variations of a base 4-3. We just don’t have the personnel anymore. The cover 2 is built on speed. A lot of our playmakers are getting old. As you get older, you lose speed. Thus, our playmakers don’t have the speed to play it anymore. We need new pieces.
There’s a reason Tampa only won the SB once w/ all the defensive talent they had. After they won, they had injuries (see bears) and their top playmakers started to show their age.
The cover 2 (and more specifically the tampa 2) is one of the best defensive schemes in football. It is a high risk, high reward scheme. It is very hard to execute well, but when it does, it is dominant. Our SB run was similar to tampa’s, all our main playmakers just happened to be in their prime, with their top speed.
Which brings me to the bears woes this year. The cover 2 relies on D-line pressure in order to work effectively. Almost all of our D-linemen are past their prime and slow. Ogunleye and Brown are past their prime, Harris will never return to where he was, and NT has been a revolving door. If you can’t get pressure from your front 4, the cover 2 falls apart and can be picked apart by opposing offenses.
Get the pressure, and QBs will have to make errant throws. The speed of the players in the cover 2 will allow them to get into position to force turnovers (usually in the form of picks).
I have to tip my hat to Bears management to getting Gaines Adams, who i liked coming out of college and brings some youth to the line. But it may be too little, too late to save their skins.
by Nih1lus on Oct 26, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Bucs Defense was great for like a 10 year stretch
The Offense is what kept the Bucs from winning more superbowls at that time.
by Syndor on Oct 26, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tampa 2
has been solved, it’s time to move on.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
by gaclaudy on Oct 26, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The same holes have always existed in the Tampa-2.
The Bears can’t penetrate pressure, that’s why it doesn’t work. All defensive schemes work with proper personnel and execution.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
by dakoose on Oct 26, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
even when the d line does get pressure
it still doesn’t always work. you need at least one decent corner to match up with the #1 wideout to keep the short drop/quick throw and a pretty good set of linebackers to keep contain on the running game should they come underneath the pass rush. minnesotas tampa 2 gets shelled on a fairly regular basis…. honestly i’m not a fan of the tampa 2 unless you have insanely good talent on the defensive side of the ball.
I piss people off on a fairly regular basis. I cherish my right to speak my mind, whether I sound like an uneducated savage or not. I've never been accused of keeping what I think a secret, nor will I ever. Don't like it? I don't care.
by IABerserker1 on Oct 26, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the front four get pressure,
and by that I mean without the aid of a blitz, the defense works. Of course, a defense won’t post a shutout each and every Sunday, but when implemented with the proper personnel it works as well as any defense. Of course, you want to be stacked at all positions, but it starts up front. In terms of having an elite CB, that is the least important position within the scheme, behind all three LB spots and both safeties. Because of the zone-based nature of the scheme, having a shut-down corner, if there is such a thing in today’s game, having mediocre corners is something that the Cover 2 can more than make up for.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
by dakoose on Oct 26, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we have fairly mediocre corners.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
by Spongie on Oct 26, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But our personnel has failed
along with the personnel decisions. I see the T2 as being similar to Walsh’s offense. It has the potential to be outstanding, but the personnel have to be an almost perfect fit across the board for it to function properly. The Bucs hit on a perfect alignment with Sapp and Rice up front, Brooks and Quarles in the middle, and Barber and Lynch in the secondary. The rest of the personnel weren’t great talent wise, but they knew the scheme inside and out. Even in the couple good defensive seasons we’ve had, we haven’t come close to clicking as well as they did, and I don’t see it happening any time soon. Maybe we can start a covert campaign to get Lane Kiffin fired so we can convince Monte to come up here.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Oct 27, 2009 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tommie Harris
He is not done… He is a valuable part of our run stop defense. We just witness our run defense without him IMO he needs to be credited and I am certainly sure he is not done.
by Man G on Oct 26, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Harris = terrible against the run
Do you realize that Harris has 7 tackles all year?
M. Harrison had 7 tackles yesterday.
Even when Tommie was good, he was never good against the run. The most tackles he has ever had in a season was 42 (his rookie year).
by MakeHalasProud on Oct 26, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You missed something
Harris when he was healthy may not have made the tackles on most plays but he did disrupt the play so someone else (Urlacher and Briggs usually) could finish of the ball carrier. He also made the DEs better by creating pressure up the middle and sucking up blockers. He had to be blocked by two guys on most plays and that opens opportunities for someone else. He was unnaturally quick off the ball which alloowed him to penetrate quickly into the backfield. Sadly, that quickness is long gone. Without it he is at best ordinary.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 26, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed - when healthy Harris' quickness was a huge problem for blockers
But now that burst is gone. He does appear to be finished – or best case scenario, he’s clearly average and on the down side of his career.
by JimmyMack on Oct 26, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quick question
Have you been watching this year?
I'M A MAN! I'M 23!
by ChiFan13 on Oct 26, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the medical term for Tommie's injury is "Plantar Phatlaziheduphizassitis"
by BearFan611 on Oct 26, 2009 5:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He could've been the cornerstone of the defense for years
We’ll never know for sure whether or not he’s hurt, or just not working hard enough to get himself rehabbed so he can play at 100%. The fact that the Bears haven’t said much is very odd. But it’s almost like he got the big contract with all of that guarenteed money and then said, “that’s it, I don’t have to work any more.”
It won’t be the first time we’ve gotten burned on a big contract – look at Nate Vasher and Cedric Benson.
by JimmyMack on Oct 26, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can excuse Benson's since it was his rookie contract and those are always a crapshoot
but the others were to keep players that showed something for only one year.
by BearFan611 on Oct 26, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I found this on a medical website...

There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
by LostInSTL on Oct 26, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bottom line is Angelo is invested up to his eyeballs in the Cover-2
Right or wrong, there isn’t going to be a change in defensive scheme so long as Jerry Angelo remains GM. The majority of players on this defense are ill-suited for the standard 4-3, or more importantly the 3-4 that everybody is going to. The only exceptions it can be argued are Lance Briggs, Alex Brown and Peanut Tillman. Even Gaines Adams is protypical Cover-2 end and a less desirable commodity in any other defense.
The McCaskeys and Ted Phillips are not going to fire Jerry Angelo anytime soon. Therefore get comfortable with the Cover-2 because it ain’t goin’ anywhere.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Oct 26, 2009 8:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even arguing that we need to get rid of it.
I just think that it needs to be rebuilt almost across the board. If that’s the case, then the argument for having to stay with it loses a lot of it’s clout. Changing schemes is of course dependent on the management and coaching staff being replaced as well, and as you said, it’s not likely to happen.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Oct 27, 2009 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here Is How I See This Situation.
If Lovie Smith is unwilling to or too stuborn to change his Defensive scheme then he needs to go. When he was fresh on the scene he got us to a Super Bowl. Now he’s been figured out. He’s been figured out for a long time. And Cincinnati showed just how much his Defense is in decline last week. I mean seriously it was a JOKE. So if Lovie wants to stay a joke then he needs to Coach his way out of Chicago and we need new blood at the Coaching level.
by Gesiakob on Oct 31, 2009 3:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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