Notes, Scribbles, and Things Jotted Down: Packers Part II
by Dane Noble on Dec 13, 2009 6:00 PM CST
in Notes
107 comments
If there was any small mathematical chance that the Bears could challenge for an NFC Wild Card spot, losing to the Packers wiped those numbers away. Not that there were too many people who were still believing it would actually happen, but it is still hard to imagine that we would have a third year in a row without reaching the playoffs after reaching the Super Bowl in 2006.
In six years with the Bears, Lovie Smith has three seasons with a winning record, and two playoff births.
- Not only did Cutler look to Aromashodu often, he looked towards him early. The first two plays of the game were passes to DA (1 complete and 1 incomplete).
- Omiyale had 2 penalties in the second series for the Bears (false start and holding). Penalties are drive killers.
- I really feel sorry for Cutler when he has to constantly throw off his back foot, but on the rare occasion he can set his feet and step into the throw, it looks great. He throws a damn good football.
- Lots of 3WR sets early in the game... indicative of absolutely no running game.
- Yes, our OL is still awful, but things looked much better this week than most weeks. CWilliams made some errors, but he also made some great blocks. Let's hope he keeps getting live reps for the rest of the year.
- Omiyale was very similar to Williams... made some bone-headed plays, but also made some damn good blocks. Steadily showing improvement.
- I like Knox, and I think he's going to turn out to be a mighty fine WR next year, assuming the OL is improved.
- What happened on the Bears extra point attempt? Was there a penalty on Pat Mannelly? ( I had no sound)
- Glad to see Tommie doing something again. Let's see if he can keep it going over the next few weeks.
- Afalava loves to hit people. And I love watching him hit people.
- The Bears defense showed improvement in getting off the field after 3rd down plays... GB was only 5/13 on 3rd down attempts.
- 13 penalties/ 109 yards. For shame.
- The guy we gave up a second round draft pick for registered his fourth tackle as a Chicago Bear on Sunday. In seven games he has been active, he's got 4 tackles and 0 sacks.
- Lance Briggs, despite not having his usual 10+ tackles, still played like a madman.
- I dislike seeing Bullocks on the field, even if he does make a few tackles.
- Knox/ Aroma's combined numbers: 13 rec/ 159 yds/ 2 TDs.
- Jason McKie made a couple of great blocks on DTs that our OL was unable to block.
Up next... @ Ravens. Should be fun!
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I Like Lovie
but I’m sorry to say, that if its necessary in order for ownership to make a change, I hope we lose out the rest of the way. At this point, it would feel better to be a Notre Dame fan. At least they’ve got a runway to bet on. All we’ve got is wasted timeouts. And I can’t stand Notre Dame.
I hope Lovie has a great and long career as a defensive coordinator in the AFC.
He seems like a nice guy.
But the coaching has been horrible this year, someone needs to be held responsible.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
No band-wagoner fans allowed, pick a team and stick with em, throughout the good and the bad.
Tough Year
Hi Everyone, As a lifelong Packer backer I just want to say that the Bears played us tough in just about every game..as did the Packers in the years that the Bears were winning the division. This year your team just had some tough breaks on defense…losing Brian surely didn’t help you at all..and in getting Jay I thought it was a step up for your team. I think another year there will tell the story.. In today’s game I was sure that the Bears might pull it out…It was another of those battles between the oldest rivals in the league and, as usual, you can throw the records out the window. I didn’t see the game either but I am wondering if Lovie has been around too long…just been seeing all the comments you have been making…and just want you to know that for awhile lots of us Packer backers were concerned about our team too…and with that traitor Favre going to those stinking Vikings..that put the capper on our thoughts of him…but we have righted the ship it appears and we’ll see what happens from here on out. I hope that whatever happens in Chicago that you all keep being the devoted fans that you are…that is what makes our teams the greatest. Thanks for listening.
Wow
lovie way to have your players ready. Well disaplined team, good mentality on this team. How in the world can we keep this busch-league coach?
To answer you...
What happened on the Bears extra point attempt? Was there a penalty on Pat Mannelly?
He got called for unnecessary roughness for laying on his back in an unnecessarily rough position.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
by Just Dave on Dec 13, 2009 6:47 PM CST reply actions 6 recs
if we pick up one receiver this offseason
like.. MARSHALL.. or someone else.. who would we keep as our starting receivers..
i like Knox the most.. then DA or hester.. bennets not that great
"Triple B's Bulls Bears... Blackhawks (i guess)"
Do you really believe
the Donkeys won’t tag him if a contract isn’t worked out? Also, he’ll be a restricted free-agent if a new CBA isn’t established.
We're not scaremongering (nightmare of a season continues), this is really happening (Bears are more than done) - Radiohead
the bears have great talent"
the bears have talent for the future.knox-a.d-bennet should be fine wrs. pace- omiyale vasher-ogunleye-should be gone. in the loss you can see potential. LT williams should he get the best LG freeagent there is he will only get better . get a better FB to blow holes up for forte.get beekman in there at C. garza still good with more talent around him.3rd and 4th rounds produce great RTs." fire turner" i miss" rivera" .now on to the lovie "d"cover 2 got to go TOMMIE should get traded andeson-ogunleye should not get signed .SS-FS 1 CB via freeagency and new “D line and LBs” coaches but seeing its christmas its all a "BIG@ – WISH’!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“mmmm. beer?”
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Dec 13, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
At this point, what would be worse?
Getting swept by the Packers and Vikings OR losing a game to the Lions?
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
i'm pretty convinced all of that will happen
especially if stafford & calvin play.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Crap
Now I have to think about that for the rest of the season.
Price Check on aisle BOOM.
by Ditkavsworld on Dec 14, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
Don't be cruel.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
No band-wagoner fans allowed, pick a team and stick with em, throughout the good and the bad.
FIRE LOVIE TOMORROW...
this game was actually winnable and the utter lack of coaching talent threw away a chance at winning. It’s one thing to be conservative and play for narrow victories, but to give games away with awful coaching is the pure definition of FAIL! Let’s look at the stupidity:
DA has monster game against good defense. Why has he not played all season? This shows how badly Drake, Turner and Smith evaluate talent.
The 2-for-1 Time Out FAIL-Lovie has no earthly business calling 2 TOs. Why not just challenge the play, either way a TO will be effectively called? Smith cannot handle being the DC and HC. If he chose better position coaches and cordinators, he would not have to do double duty!
There’s so much more to say, but for now, JUST FIRE LOVIE. He put himself up for sacrifice when he named himself the DC. He has FAILED miserably and he should be held accountable.
When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!!!
And who should take over?
And I’m not just asking you, I want to know what people think? If Lovie got canned tomorrow morning who should take over? I assume it should/would be Dave Toub. In fact, I do kind of hope that this happens. A lot of people have been wondering how he would do as a head coach so why not can Lovie and say “Toub, you got 3 games to win this team over and show us you got what it takes, think you can handle it?”
by GallopingGhost on Dec 14, 2009 1:06 AM CST up reply actions
ravens coach
i would vote for ryan the defense coach for the ravens. he has a passion for the game and if he is anything like his brother we would be a totally awesome team next year with practicaaly the same personel
At this point, I really don't care who replaces Lovie
Toub would be a huge upgrade as a head coach over Lovie. I’d like to see them go after Cower or Gruden – and Weis as the OC. Lovie’s had plenty of time to right this ship.
I don’t think Lovie will get canned, though. At $5.5 million a year, he’s one of the highest paid coaches in the league. The McCaskeys aren’t going to eat the final two years on his contract.
"Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking." - Jim McMahon
Please do not let Cutler quarterback another game this season !!!
the largest city in Maryland awaits .
Orton wouldn't be any better.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
No band-wagoner fans allowed, pick a team and stick with em, throughout the good and the bad.
Dude
Compare the 2. One has a great OL, better receivers and more importantly better coaching
by frenchbears113 on Dec 13, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Thats what I was saying.
If Jay was still in Denver, he would probably be having a great season. If Orton was still here, he would probably have been sacked more than Aaron Rodgers by now.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
No band-wagoner fans allowed, pick a team and stick with em, throughout the good and the bad.
It would make more sense to bench Forte
With the big ol’ nothing he’s given us this season.
Is Jerry Angelo fired yet?
I just wanna say the field looked like complete crap again.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
uhhhhh ohhhhhhhhh
I've had enough
I almost slammed my labtop to the ground after I read what Angelo had to say after the game.
``I know that is the perception given how the season has gone so far, but I don’t feel that personally,’’ he said. ``I feel we have a good nucleus. We need to continue to develop players. Obviously, we are going to need to do some things in the off-season, and at the end of the season we will sit down and evaluate each and every position like we do every year. Like I say these last four games—and who knows maybe something really good happens—are very, very important to us.’’
Here’s the link to the whole article
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/bears/1937437,bears-packers-mulligan-13.article
angelo might be right
in the sense that we very well might have a lot of talent in the organization. the problem is, our coaches suck at developing it, spotting it, or using it effectively. DA is the prime example of this…not many WRs have games like that against woodson. the guy our coaches choose to not play much at all until an injury forces him in does so in his first start. major coaching failure. jamar williams gets 20 tackles last week, but doesn’t get much PT this week. chris williams and frank omiyale play out of position most of the season, and do so badly. the coaches do nothing about this. plenty of ex-bears do well outside of here…they clearly were talented while here, but the coaches didn’t see it or couldn’t do anything with it.
by guy incognito on Dec 13, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't give Angelo a pass at all.
I think the reason he’s so willing to give away draft picks is because he recognizes his failure with identifying talent. When Jay-Cut came along, he knew that would be his best chance to acquire talent because it was already proven. It’s also the reason why he traded our #2 for that lump of coal we got from TB. He was just hoping that it would pay any kind of dividend right away.
Like They Developed Aromashodu?
I had been asking for that guy all Year. With Lovie Smith and Angelo in charge the only thing I develop is headaches every Sunday.
I think
that he was with the colts before he came here
by T.Moore on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Does anybody else feel disgusted whenever you hear Bears personnel talk
about “the NEXT FOUR games will be very important to us”? All the games should be important to you! Quit trying to delay passing judgement, you jackasses! Instead of trying to divert our attention to the future, for once acknowledge your failures and say: “Yeah, we sucked the LAST FOUR games. We’ve identified some areas that we feel are unacceptable, and are going to do x, y, and z to try and fix them.” It wouldn’t make these past few years OK, but it would make me feel better. I’m tired of Lovie, JA, and co. treating the fan base like children.
Ideas that probably won't gain any traction
1) Fire Jerry Angelo – this is necessary even before firing Lovie. This is absolutely critical.
2) Trade Devin Hester for whatever you can get. Seriously, even a 6th round pick would be fine. I like our WR corps led by the Bennett/Knox combo. Even Aroma had a game today. It was definitely the most promising aspect of today’s game.
3) Draft linemen with every pick, both sides of the ball. This is why step 1 is necessary, as Angelo will clearly screw it up.
4) Make a run at Mike Shanahan or secondarily Jon Gruden. I’d rather not see Bill Cowher; his inexplicable love of Kordell Stewart throughout the entire first half of this decade was more than enough to turn me off of him as a coach forever.
5) Smack Matt Forte upside the head and tell him to stop being so afraid of contact. I do think his carries should be limited these last three games – what’s the point of getting him banged up?
6) This Eagles/Giants game is rigoddamndiculous
Is Jerry Angelo fired yet?
Hester
Stop asking to trade Hester. He’s good.
by ClawsClawsClaws on Dec 14, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
Good?
Hester is decent. H’e got speed but thats about it
by frenchbears113 on Dec 14, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
hester what hester he is rediculous
put hester back at being one of the most dangerous players in the game he is not a WR let the return man get back returnin
I can't decide which is more impressive...
…your carefully constructed argument, or your fine grasp of the English language.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
Good list.
- definitely. If you fire one, you have to fire the other. This team is in such a bind not just because of Lovie, but because of Jerry’s real inability to find talent in the draft.
I would strongly disagree with you on #2, however. DH is worth more to us than any other team right now. Also, if we do bring in another coaching staff, we should give them a chance to figure out how to best utilize his skills. Who knows? They may return the greatest return man EVER to the spot where he won enough games for us to get us to the superbowl. If I remember correctly, he even gave us a 7 point lead on the opening kickoff…
- totally agree. Then, turn around and smack him on the other side of the head and tell him to lose the happy feet at the line and hit the hole HARD.
How Vinny isn't already gone, I don't know
What does everyone think will happen with Spags in St. Louis? They’re going 1 – 15, so if he gets canned (I don’t think he deserves to be, but who knows), would anyone object to him as a DC?
Is Jerry Angelo fired yet?
The evidence is stacking up
13 penalties… including two on one drive by FA “prize” Omiyale. LOL.
Wasting two timeouts to use a challenge… and sadly, this isn;t the stupidist thing Lovie has done all year.
DA… finally gets a start, after Cutler has been begging to get him on the field all year, and he leads the team in catches and scores a TD. Gotta give it up to the stubborness of the coaching staff… way to bury a capable WR on the bottom of the depth chart .
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
while i think the mccaskeys are too cheap to eat his contract
i am wondering if they might just do it. fact is, lovie took charge of the defense this year and it has generally sucked. lovie has made some terrible coaching decisions. his team commits a lot of penalties you could attribute to poor coaching. he stubbornly sticks to failing schemes and players, while seemingly letting good ones rot (DA) or get away. and, most importantly, we’ve missed the playoffs 3 straight years after the super bowl. this last point is really damning. to miss one year, okay. two is pushing it. but three straight seasons? we’re not the rams or lions…we actually have a decent talent base.
by guy incognito on Dec 14, 2009 12:06 AM CST up reply actions
Lovie is the most overrated head coach in the NFL - possibly in the past 20 years
More and more, it’s looking like the Super Bowl run in 2006 was basically a fluke. They had a run, and got some decent years out of some pretty good players. And then they said, “let’s just sit back and coast.” They started screwing up draft picks and signing mediocre and over-the-hill free agents. Now we see the end result of the ineptness of Angelo and Smith. They went for broke on Cutler, and he’s a talented quarterback – but his supporting cast stinks. With a bad o-line and inexperienced WRs, this season was a disaster waiting to happen.
By the way, where the hell is Gaines Adams?
"Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking." - Jim McMahon
Funny stuff
Funny thing. I was flipping around channels partially watching the game and when I saw Lovie call the TO after the Olsen drop and call the official over I headed to the toilet remembering the TO the Saints called in OT last week to give an official time to decide to review a play. And I thought, “I bet Lovie was reading about that TO call last week and heard everyone saying it was smart to call the TO to get the official to review the play. Now he’s going to try something similiar even though the situation is completely different. Watch him waste a challenge after the TO.”
Funny world. Think the stupidest thing you can and it comes to pass.
this season has been over a month and a half ago
we all knew it, felt it deep down, but being hopeful and full of pride, we kept on keeping on. Now, after a tragic loss at home to the rival packers, its all surreal. The team is in horrible shape, with only a few bright spots to even think about during the off season. It will be a tragedy to see the same coaching staff come in next season or crucial positions/personnel not be addressed or corrected, but thats not our call or our move to make. Lets just hope that the ppl at the helm have greater foresight and try to take control of this sinking ship before its sunk to the brink in which it will never be pulled out from.
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 14, 2009 1:10 AM CST reply actions
Well said
If Lovie does not get fired then I would hope that Angelo has the balls to strip Lovie of some of his power as far as personnel is concerned. Lovie’s ego and sheer stubborness have gotten this team stuck with terrible coaches. Cutler and Forte have regressed and it isn’t all because of the OLine. Most of it is due to poor coaching. Good coaches know the weaknesses of their teams and do their best to fix them. The Packers OLine is a prime example. They have been one of the worst OLines in the league yet Rogers is still standing and the Line has improved. The coaching staff have worked with the makeshift line and coached Rogers to avoid the sacks by getting rid of the ball if protection breaks down or if there aren’t any open receivers. Cutler on the other hand throws into double coverage and gets picked off. If we had better coaching they would drill that tendency out of him. Yes he is at fault for poor decisions but that is easily coachable.
by frenchbears113 on Dec 14, 2009 1:56 AM CST up reply actions
Apparently
there were over 4000 empty seats at Soldier Field today. When 4000 fans are no-shows at a rivalry game, you know something’s wrong. I hope that number increases and the McCaskeys start listening to the fact that we are tired of a crap team and crap management. The more this happens the better chance of them sucking up their ego and firing some people
this is no small thing
there should be no no-shows for a home game versus the packers. i thought there was no chance lovie gets fired…but…missing the playoffs 3 straight years after making it to the superbowl…plus a coaching staff that seems to be constantly outclassed AND fails to develop talent…i dunno. maybe they will fire lovie. for the talent development alone, it may be worth it to the mccaskeys. yeah, you pay $11 mill, but if you keep him, he might screw up whatever talent you have left on the team, which would be disasterous.
by guy incognito on Dec 14, 2009 5:05 AM CST up reply actions
Plus
Even if he’s brought back next year he’s essentially a lame duck coach for the next 2 years. No good coaches, coordinators, or players are going to want to come to a team with both a lame duck coach and probably lame duck GM.
But again, we’re making sense here. That has no bearing on Bears management.
If Lovie stays
than I’m taking some time apart from the Bears next season and becoming a Lions fan until Lovie and co are gone.
Probably not but dang it
I’m thinking about it! I know I’m not buying anymore Bears gear til they are gone.
Interesting (I think)...
I was sure that the Packers and Jennings got robbed on the reviewed non-touchdown call. But then on APC, a user posted these videos stating why the call on the field was accurate.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
>> John Greenberg (ESPNChicago.com) article <<
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
i like that article
the question is who will take the fall this season? Ron Turner is a idiot!
What pist me off the most !!!
Was the 2 time outs we lost in a minute when we were in the 4th.
Turner's Offensive Offense
Brian Billick mentioned that Cutler has to wait for play to fully develop before throwing the ball. Basically, ensuring that the receivers run the correct route then make a decision. Before Bear (BB), Cutler was the type of QB that got the ball out before the receivers made his break. With the offensive play by Bear’s line, Cutler isn’t afforded time by defenders in hopes receivers make the right cut. Does Ron Turner offense allow receivers to audible their route in midflight based on coverage? On Cutler’s INT, why would Know go deep, when the offense needed about 4-5 yards for a 1st and his QB had two defender barring down on him? My thought is Knox should have broke inward, post his man up or hard slant to help out his QB. Or Cutler should have thrown the ball away knowing his receivers would hang him out to dry more than often. But I know this guy want to make impossible throw, keep drives alive and be that historic QB for Chicago, and so he’s more prone to make the throw regardless. In postgame, Knox said he was taught to get away from the safety on scramble drills. But Cutler wasn’t scrambling he was under pressure. What is the protocol for receivers when defenders are blitzing. I can’t imagine going deep on that play.
I'm taking a ton of heat for my criticism of Cutler right now on this board.
But, all the communication problems that the WRs are having with their QB, are the QBs fault. He’s the common denominator here. He was a crappy team. A really crappy team, I get that. But, he’s the leader of this team, and it’s his job, and expectation as the Bears “franchise,” to make the guys around him better.
The WRs are having the same communication issues EVERY week with their QB, When are you guys going to start questioning the leadership of the QB, and stop blaming everything but him?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
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I'd say it's because our team hasn't developed a WR properly since...
the invention of the forward pass. Seriously, it boggles my mind that people forget how absolutely terrible our WR coaching has been over the years. Considering between our 4 main WR we have Knox who while awesome is an actual rookie, Bennett who while he has history with Cutler and a year studying the playbook is still only seeing the field for his first year, Hester who is only in his second year at the position basically ever, let alone in the league, and DA who is seeing the field for the first time, but has had plenty of time to read the playbook.
What I’m saying is, the common denominator isn’t just Cutler, it’s a complete lack of experience at the position which is covered up to some extent by the amount of talent at the position. I’m guessing that the reason Cutler is more successful with DA is he’s had more time in the offense to learn his routes, just a guess on why he was asking for him to play as well.
It’s the QB’s fault on communication if there is an audible or something, or throwing to the wrong spot on an option or w/e, it’s the WR fault when they just flat out run the wrong route.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Dec 14, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Agree...
based on Bear WRs experience or lack there of, Turner should have made his WRs job simplier like what a OC would do with a rookie QB. Play one position and have one assignment on scrambling and blitzes. Then over the course of the season, slowly feed the WRs. Nevertheless, Angelo should have brought an experienced mid-level WR to teach these guy and give Cutler an option on difficult game situations.
Problems with reading coverage falls on
Coaches more than the QB. WRs through the scheme of the offense has to know what to do on certain situations based on how Ron Turner expects his offense to be ran. Orton is not the leader in Denver, but his coach offense dictates that the ball & wr needs to be here or throw it away. Which is why Orton will never overcome a deficit. McDaniels wants Orton to read half the field and hit his primary guy. There’s no site adjustment in midflight as Knox and Jim Miller allude to for McDaniels system. In this offense, WRs can make post snap decision that leads to INTs. On those INTs, the WRs should have sat down on the route based on pressure brought by the defensive or Cutler should have thrown it away not knowing if his WRs will make the right read. Cutler was not scrambling so why go deep?
Cutler's the leader on the field.
The leader of the team. It;s his job to make sure they understand everything and are on the same page. Period.
I don’t want to be so negative about him… but there comes a time when you have to see everything for what it is, instead of being blind, and deflecting the blame.
For all the many things that are bad and wrong with this team… there’s one major, major problem that is the fault of the QB: bad communication with his WRs. It happens every week… and leads to the same mistakes every week.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
SackMan
I don’t want it to seem like we all have blinders on when it comes to Cutler. He does some things that drive me crazy, too.
But it’s easy to go the simple explanation route and say: “A pick is a pick, and is the QB’s fault.” But it’s not that simple. You say that cutler is the leader of the team. Not so. This is Cutler’s first year here. He has not yet earned the title of team leader. Maybe soon he will be. But he isn’t yet.
Also, it is NOT his job to make sure they understand everything and make sure they are on the same page. It’s primarily the coaches. Now, as the QB, he has a lot of responsibility to work with his WRs to the point where they are on the same page. But it should be the coaches facilitating that.
I think a lot of it is that Cutler is getting hit so hard with criticism, so in order to get our point across, we have to constantly defend him to balance out the argument.
This is where we differ.
I contend that IT IS HIS JOB to make sure they understand everything. He’s the leader. The organization has made an enormous investment in him to do so. You don’t trade multiple draft picks, and your previous QB… and then award the guy a huge contract extension, if you think he’s just an average player.
He is the team leader… no matter if you think he’s “earned the title” or not.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
This is a good discussion...
It’s not that I think he’s earned the title, it’s whether the Bears in the locker room think he’s earned the title. Leadership needs the deference of those being “led”, it cannot be imposed from the top no matter how much money the McCaskeys dump into a contract.
Let’s break this down into tangibles, like athletic ability, arm strength, etc. and intangibles, like leadership. I think its a safe bet to think that the Bears dropped that much money into the tangibles, and are hoping, like we all are, that the intangibles will develop as he grows to be a part of the team and matures as a QB.
My contention is that there are too many problems with the team as a whole for an intangible like leadership to make a difference from one player, even if that is a QB. Even if you put someone like Peyton Manning on our team right now, his leadership intangibles are not enough to overcome the other problems the team is facing.
I also like this discussion because I remember agreeing with you on most of your posts.
"For all the many things that are bad and wrong with this team… there’s one major, major problem that is the fault of the QB"
Well will have to go with the O-line which is the biggest problem of this team.You can win with a average QB but if you don’t have a good O-line you got nothing.Plain and simple.Horrible blocking all season leads to mistake on the offense as a whole.Im NOT saying that Jay wasn’t at fault for his mistakes.But think about it not one of our WRs started for more than just 2 years.We have no experienced WR to help the young guys out if we still have Moose he can help them out.The coaching stinks and at time Jay as made the bad passes but also none of our WRs except for Aromashodu makes the adjustment and fights for the ball.I think Jay will be good.We dont have just 1 or 2 inexperienced WRs but our whole recieving core is inexperienced.Not one team in the NFL has a core like that.Again Jay is at fault for some of his mistakes.But the inexperience is NOT helping.QBs and WRs not being on the same page is a 2 way street,we don’t know whos fault it really is.You can’t always look at the QB for all the answers.They all need proper coaching as well which they are not getting.Whenever a team makes the same mistakes over and over its on the coach.Agree to Disagree
But this Whole team is a victim of bad coaching.over 100 yards of penalites that is on the coach period.
You can also talk about the inexperience of the WRs...
But, last season Cutler got a rookie (Eddie Royal) to catch over 90 passes.
And, he got Brandon Marshall to catch 100 passes in Marshall’s second season. They were on the same page all year… with few of these ridiculous mis-communications that we keep having week after week. in fact, Royal’s opening week debut on MNF last year vs OAK was a huge game: 9 catches, 146, and a TD.
So, what is the difference between here and there when talking about inexperienced WRs? Royal and Marshall didn’t have any wise old veterans to mentor them… unless you think Brandon Stokely and Javon, “Im sitting this on out” Walker are mentors. Eddie Royal has been a complete non factor this year on the Broncos…
Inexperience wasn’t an excuse in Denver… so why is it such a convenient excuse here?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
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They have an offensive mastermind in Shannahan.
Also Royal isn’t doing anything now why is that?And Marshall is just a physical beast.Shanny can get inside of Jay’s head and also had a great coaching staff and game plan.Now answer me this.Do we have ANYTHING that Denver have over there offensively?
Yes. We have Jay Cutler.
And apparently, according to the brethren of this board, Cutler needs to have a great supporting cast in order to succeed. Ironic isn’t it? Because that’s what we all said about Kyle Orton.
So… I guess by your admission, we’ve gotten duped and landed another average QB, instead of the difference maker we all expected him to be. If Cutler was so great, he’d make the most of this mess and at least have us clinging for a playoff birth. Isn’t that why we got him? To keep us in the hunt no matter what?
In 18 seasons… Brett Favre has one losing record on his belt. ONE (4-12 in 2005). Always keeping his team a contender no matter what the roster looked like. That’s the result we were expecting when we paid the huge price for Cutler.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
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We need a GREATER supporting cast than the one we have now.
Football, more than almost all other sports, is a team-based game. If the offense is failing on multiple levels, there is only so much a QB in the world can do about it.
As far as the comparisons between Kyle and Jay. I think the consensus is if you take the exact same team, insert Jay and then insert Kyle, Jay makes the offense perform better.
Every QB needs a good to great supporting cast to be successful.Players coaches the works
Cutler is good,We need help he had help there.they had no running game then but he still help them win 8 games dispite them having a sucky D.They know how to use Jay over there.turnernever uses his strengths rollout move the pocket.Outside the pocket hes one of the best.
Just cause we have a good QB doesn’t mean that this crapfest of a team is all of a sudden going to be a contender.Each QB NEEDS a good supporting cast for a team to win games.NO QB has EVER won ANYTHING alone that is a fact.Every good QB would struggle if he was on this team.You can’t name a good to great QB who has a shitty supporting cast and won anything.It seems that you expected Jay to carry THIS team with all of its problems coaching,shitty blocking,no running game, and the D sucks as well do you expect ANY QB to carry a team like this.Name one good to great QB who has a sucky team,sucky coaches and sucky defense,and has made the playoffs?
If Orton was on this team.we would not win 5 games as its stands now.He would be in a body cast cause the O-line sucks so bad.
For you to expect a QB to play at an elite level with everything that can make an offense go bad.No running game,No line, incompetent coaching.To expect ANY QB to play at a high level in these circumstances is crazy talk.I never hear of any QB, ANY QB that can play well and win with the type of crap we have against this team.
And finally,
It’s not like we are annointing him a saint and can do nothing wrong. He has been underthrowing his receivers more than I’d like lately, and a few of those throws get picked. There are bad decisions he makes sometimes that get me a bit steamed. Also, if he does anything wrong, it’s expecting the level of talent on this team to be similar to what he had in Denver. It’s not. He has slowly been realizing that and adjusting his game downward to compensate.
However, you have to realize that the chances of throwing a pick tend to go up when:
1. You have no time to throw the ball, because anything more than a 3-step drop will leave you chewing turf.
2. You have ZERO running game support to setup the playaction. It makes coverage that much tighter.
3. You have inexperienced WRs who can’t take advantage of their main asset, speed, because there is NO TIME to get seperation.
4. You are hurrying your throws because of #1 above. This leads to bad mechanics and poorly thrown balls.
5. You’re recievers, eager and talented as they may be, run routes poorly at times, which leads me to my next reason…
6. You have no confidence in your recievers, so instead of throwing to a spot, you have to wait to make sure they are open, which leads to tunnel vision, hurrying, and bad mechanics.
7. After dealing with all the reasons above, you find your team is down by 10-14 pts, and you try to force throws into very tight windows.
8. Your TE, which is supposed to be a safety blanket option, has a habit of dropping passes.
9. You have no big target who can go up and win potential jump balls. (oh wait, the coaching staff just allowed DA into a game for once to be that guy).
Maybe if Jay had just a consistant running game, good pass protection, or a decent coaching staff he could have the luxury of being patient with his young WRs and coaching them up the way Peyton does in Indy. But with so many things going wrong, it’s utterly impossible to do so. Remember, as T.Moore has said, Peyton was a pick machine his first 4 years in Indy for some of the same reasons that Jay throws a lot of them now.
I also don’t understand the criticism for one big reason. A lot of speculation happens when we argue about a player saying, "he’s better/worse than X. If he were on a better team, he’d be awesome." In most cases, we’ll never know. We don’t know how Peyton would’ve done on our Bears squad. Fortunately, we have seen Jay on 2 squads. Last year, he was on a team that surrounded him with a decent line, a lousy running game, and great recievers. Result: 4000 yards and a decent TD/pick ratio, and many games won on his big arm. So we know that Cutler isn’t the issue.
As to your comment about leadership, I have seen elements of leadership that look very positive. Not lashing back at Urlacher in the media is showing leadership, and so is not throwing his teammates under the bus weekly. I constantly see him taking recievers aside after an incompletion, or congratulating them on a good play.
We went out and got him, because we thought he was the Franchise.
Turns out… he’s not. He’s not even close. Let’s do a quick comparison with some of the all-time greats.
Brett Favre only had one losing season in 18 years, and led Southern Miss to two bowl games?
Dan Marino only had two losing seasons in 15 years, and led Pitt to bowl games and National Championship contention in all 3 seasons?
Tom Brady hasn’t had a losing season in the NFL or at Michigan?
Now, why is it that the best QBs in the game are winners at every level, and meanwhile… Jay Cutler has never had a single winning season in college at Vanderbilt, or in the NFL with Denver and Chicago?
Wake up. The guy’s not a winner. He just has a flashy arm that we grossly overpaid for. It took me a whole season to take the blinders off and realize this. It’s time you all do the same.
And BTW… since when did he have a lousy running game last year in Denver? They ran for 4.8 yards per carry! They had over 1,800 rushing yards as a team… 2oo more than the Bears did last year.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
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Ok,Im not blind
I know his mistakes he made his mistakes.Like I said a QB NEEDS a good to great supporting cast period.Right now he doesn’t have that cast.This cast is inexperienced lack talent,and old O-line and cant protect.Why is Orton doing well at Denver?Its the CAST!He is doing the same thing here as he did over there and throwing to B-Marsh 21 times is proof of that.Also he has a SMART organization and a SMART young offensive coach.But aside from B-marsh.Jay had the that cast at Denver and was successful but then the Broncs D was one of the worst they let teams score over 30 a game!The Broncs had a running game but not one guy to depend on they had injuries and why are they running so well with anybody?Cause of the top 5 O-line in the NFL.Manning for YEARS the Colts built around him even after he thrown 81 picks in his 1st 4 years.And look at him now he has gotten better and now has one of the best offensive casts for YEARS now and great O-line.Same with Farve with the Vikes he had connections there he knows the offense there and again great O-line.NO quarterback will win ANYTHING with what he have.I don’t care if you put John Montana,Dan Marino,or Steve Young each of which have a GREAT supporting cast.I dont care if you put all the legendary QBs on this team with these players and coaches they will struggle.NO QB wins without a good to great supporting cast PERIOD.
BTW Brady from Mich?Wasn’t picked up near the 7th round?And Also he has a great system and good supporting cast and good O-line.And if Bledsoe who had the same thing didn’t get injured we wouldn’t hear of Brady. And looking back at their careers in college football is irrelivant in evaluating an NFL QB that is playing after 4 years of graduating.Also since a sucky QB can lead a team to a national title (see Kraig Krenzel) And how about Danny wurfel national champ with Florida (i spelled it wrong) how did they do in the NFL?
Dude...
Do you think Southern Miss was a football power house when Favre was there? You think he had a great supporting cast? No. He was the difference maker.
Big Ben, Phillip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers… they all had winnign records in college… you think their teams were great? No. They were the difference makers.
Yet, Cutler’s teams have lost every year, at the two highest levels of the sport. Tells you something.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Southern Miss is NOT in a strong conference
Those guys that you have mentioned were in weak conferences.The SEC is no joke.They are all good But Rivers in the ACC.Other than him none of those guys really in a strong conference with strong competition.
Like I said now we are talking about NOW! Not college that has nothing to do with this conversation.
In the NFL National Football Leauge.Where nearly EVERYONE plays at a high level.In the NFL you need a STONG supporting CAST for a QB to be successful.
In College since not everybody are high class atheletes you can get away with that.In the NFL there are no cupcake teams.Any bad team in the NFL can beat a good one.You expect in college that a an Ivy leauge school can beat Florida or Alabama or OSU?HELL NO! Won’t happen cause of a HUGE level of talent and level of coaching.
BUT in the NFL nearly one of these guys are HIGH CLASS athetes.In the NFL tell me name ONE good/great QB that has won ANYTHING without a great cast.
C’mon name me ONE QB with nearly shit for players and coaches around him and won a Super Bowl or even made the playoffs.I bet you can’t.
You're still not understanding my point.
Guys like Favre, Marino have a combined 3 losing seasons in the NFL out of what… 33?
You think they always had great supporting cast? Hell no. But, they still finished with winning records despite playing on some bad teams… because THEY made the difference.
Cutler has yet to make that difference… on any teams he’s played for. That’s the issue.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Did they have crap for players and coaches like us?Mainly an O-line
He made a difference in Denver without him that year they would suck.If he was on that team now.They wouldn’t lost to the freakin redskins.Cause they have a D now.The only reason the Broncos are winning is because of the D
HE never had D to back him up.At least the colts have Freeney and year after year their D got better and was good enough to win them a SB.
Farve had a good cast.Ahman Green.Levens was pretty good himself,Donald Driver.But what’ sent that team over the top is their D.Like I said Jay doesn’t have a D to back him up.
Offensive line is the most important position in all of football.Without at least a average O-line a QB will make mistakes (jay has made them some were his fault some were not) you would have no running game.Which leads to Hurried passes,which can lead to picks which can lead to NO team winning anything.If a team doesn’t have at least an average O-line.You can’t do anything.Manning ALWAYS had one of the best lines in the NFL.So did Brady.Big ben in his 1st SB run had a good line.And last year the line stepped up and played well enough to win his 2nd SB.Each of those legends didn’t have WRs 1st or game breaking RBs.Its ALL about the O-line.You can make a hall of fame team.But if a team has a horrible O-line. No team will win anything thats a fact my friend.Jay had a good line behind him last year and they had the 2nd best offense in the NFL.Not just because of him,or B-Marsh its the line making everything they were doing possible.
If Jay has at least 5 seconds to make a decision then those mistakes would be not be as often.He has about so far about just 2 seconds.Its all about the line man.
Also
In Farve’s early years with the Pack.He had Jon Gruden,Andy Reid,Mike Holmgrem,Steve Mariucci,Dick Jauron,Ray Rhodes,And Marty Mornhinweg.All of which are real good coaches.He had an All star coaching staff back then to help him out as well as a good O-line.
We have the complete opposite of that!
You are completely ignoring the one constant
of all of those teams that Brett Favre was on: he was the QB.
And all of the teams Dan Marino was on… he was the QB.
And so on, and so forth with all of the other great QBs in this league.
You think they always had a good supporting cast? Heck no. But, they almost always have a winning record at the end of the year.
Marino never had a running game! And, in some years the defense was junk. But he kept winning.
Cutler lost every year at Vanderbilt. Every year! And he didn’t even make them competitive! They went 2-10, 2-10, 2-9, and 5-6.
And, in Denver he had a future HOF head coach, a running game that was one of the league’s best, and a beast of a WR. And he still didn’t post a winning record!
Open your eyes. The guy is not a difference maker! He’s a career loser.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
They all
At least have a average to good O-line.Like I said before if you dont have at least an average O-line you have nothing.And we dont have an average O-line we have nothing.
And again College football means nothing in the NFL.NFL players are faster stronger and smarter in every way.Im not talking about college im talking about.The National Football Leauge!Other wise we would have hear about Kraig Krenzel,Matt Lienart,And Danny Wurrful doing something in the NFL since they all won national championships.And Troy Smith who is a heisman winner who did squat in the NFL.COLLEGE MEANS NOTHING in the NFL!! When it comes.
Open your eyes.At Denver They have NO DEFENSE!! How is that his fault? They had the 2nd best Offense in the leauge he did his job.Their D let them down.How can you not see that??To blame the QB cause the DEFENSE didn’t do their job is rediculous.
You are cherry picking a few
great QBs. Look at all the “franchise” QBs over the past decade or 2 for better comparison.
I'm thinking we might end up agreeing to disagree
on this one, and that’s OK. But it’s a good conversation, so here goes.
I think your great qb=wins argument is bunk at this point. Here’s why. I went to pro-football-reference.com and compared some stats. You can’t compare the entire career of a Hall of Fame QB to Jay Cutler’s first 3 years. It just doesn’t work. You have to compare their first few years to Jay’s first few.
I looked up some of the best QBs of the past few decades. This list was Peyton (since you love him), Steve Young, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, etc. ALL OF THEM except Favre and Brady had similar, if not worse records to cutler. Some of them, like Steve Young, had way worse numbers than Cutler. Even John Elway had a worse QB rating. Go on the site, check it out for yourself. I might do a fanpost comparing the QBs.
Another part of your argument I consider weak the college comparison. If college wins and losses were a valid stat, Charlie Ward, Jason White and Gino Torretta would be the best pro QBs ever.
I've already done a fanpost
Comparing Cutler to the NFL’s top 10 All-time passing leaders.
I compared all the passing stats, and he favors very well in those comparisons. But… I never compared wins.
Go back and look at this post, and start comparing W-L records in College and the Pros in a new post… I bet none of those QBs have as bad of a winning % as Cutler. He’s never had a winning season anywhere!
By the numbers: How Cutler stacks up to the NFL’s All-Time best
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
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Well agree to disagree
But IMO.College football careers are overrated.Kraig Krenzel,Troy Smith,Danny Wurful, Ryan Leaf,Chris Leak,Matt lienart,all failed in the pros.
Like chi said its too soon to compare a guy who in his 4th year and playing his 2nd full season (or 3rd dont remember) to an all time great.Cause they struggle in their 1st 4 years as well i.e. Peyton Manning.
there are two choices I can make:
1. assume it’s not cutler’s fault and hope it gets better, or
2. assume it’s cutler’s fault and blow my brains out now.
Enough Blame to go around.
Ron Turner’s playbook dictates how WRs should run their route and what are his QB’s primary option, 2ndary, and so forth. Now the complexity comes at when defenses take away Bears primary or blitz. Turner’s scrambling drills, if he had any before Cutler, should be listed in the playbook. Coaches during training camp should have communicated and taught these very young green WRs their assignments. These WRs barely know their initial assignment is problem 1.
To be clear about the WRs on this team, this is Knox 1st year, DA 1st start, Hester 2nd year, but has never play the position prior to and Davis 5th year, but never had over 500 yds and 35 catches. So 2 out of 4 are converted defensive backs, 1 rookie, and 1 roster cut. Cutler had more experience than this in Denver and got the job done. There’s only so much a QB can do on the fly in game situations to get on the same page with his WRs. But to that fact alone, Cutler should just throw it away.
Another pain point is that the Bears failed to get an experience WR old or mid-level to help these guys in the film room and on the field like Moose use to do with Hester. It would be nice if Cuter could walk all the way over to Hester or Knox in a game and put them in the right position with enough time on the clock.
But Cutler should just throw the ball away on most of his INT knowing his WRs would likely be in the wrong place.
by Soloistic on Dec 14, 2009 11:33 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Making Plays
As bad as it may seem, Cutler is trying to make plays with the situation he’s in. He is the only player on this offense, team that could help the Bears win games or simply move the football into scoring position. Based on how this team has played this year, if you take Cutler out of the equation. Who else can we fans depend on to make plays and score? I think the Bears would be 0-16 with no line, run game, and inexperienced receivers. Nevertheless the defense is playing like crap. So the other side of this argument that’s hammering down on Cutler should dwell on those facts.
Get the guy some help. Help this team that has been desperately needed of it since Jaron left town. I never had confidence the Bears had the talent and coaches to win the Super Bowl based on how they won games all that season. The Bears jumped teams with smothering defense and special teams that scored majority of the teams points. While the offense just played conservative and not make mistakes. However, the Bears weren’t as fierce as the Ravens who were the last team to win primarily with defense. Under Lovie and coaches before him (after 85), this team had one good season in which at the end of the season. They still weren’t the best team to play in the final game of the season. With the acquisition of Cutler the pressure and dynamics change significantly for this team and holes on this team can’t be hidden anymore by a decent run game. The entire way of thinking of the coaches and GM has to change for the Bears to get better. Smith and Turner can’t coach offense and evaluate that side of the ball and Angelo can’t pick quality players draft or free agency on defense with consistency, and zip on offense.
The only bright spot of this season is still the acquisition of Cutler – bad as it may be. Bear Org can now stop trying to sell fans on the so-call "Bear football" anymore, which has always been defense and "coming off the bus running the football". This city deserves quality and good football. So at least Cutler has proven he can dominate with the right cast of players around him. He has maximized and improved this WR core. Unfortunately their ceiling isn’t too high, like an Eddie Royal or Brandon Marshall.
Agreed
But Eddie royal needed Jay he’s not that good hes like Knox.But B-Marsh is a beast.Devin Aromashodu looked awesome he was the only guy to make adjustments and attack the ball instead of waiting for the ball to come to him.Cutler was begging to have Aromashodu on the field and look at what he did against a great secondary in his 1st start.Cutler loves to throw to that guy.Yet it took until hester having to be injured to get him in.If this guy is our “franchise” QB should the coaches LISTEN TO HIM to put the guy he wants on the field?The stubborness of this coaching staff is just messed up.
How much do you want to bet that once Hester gets better
We won’t even see Aromashodu anymore?
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
No band-wagoner fans allowed, pick a team and stick with em, throughout the good and the bad.
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