Jerry and Lovie: Subterfuge in Halas Hall
by ChiFan13 on Feb 24, 2009 12:46 PM CST
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Forktongue VS. Stoneface - This time...it's personal!
subterfuge (n): a deceptive device or stratagem
The latest tale from Halas Hall is a bizarre one, to say the least. Angelo stated:
"I'm counting on the fact we're going to do a better job of coaching and that in itself is going to make us a better football team, irrelevant of what player personnel we infuse on our football team this year," Angelo told reporters in a press conference over the weekend.
I'm going to let David Haugh deliver my reply:
And it isn't fair to ask Smith to lift the Bears back into the playoffs without aggressive plans to pursue a wide receiver, an offensive tackle, a safety or a pass rusher to provide a boost.
I would understand Jerry's comments more if he hadn't gone on the early off-season tirade about getting a QB. But, the Bears are currently $30 million under the salary cap. Granted, the free agent pool this year isn't stellar, but that's not an excuse to not make some moves to make the team better (and no, Dan Buenning doesn't count as a FA 'splash'). And knowing some of the terrific draft classes Jerry's put together, we can't really count on that to deliver viable starting options in all of those holes.
Even before the season starts, Jerry's throwing Lovie under the bus. That's fine, Jerry. That's your prerogative.
But if we don't make the playoffs, don't be so sure that your job isn't in jeopardy too.
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Maybe doing a better job coaching
was his reference to bringing in Marinelli and having Lovie being more hands on with defensive play calling?
Why is BoBab even still there?
Things will get better as they improve...
If Marinelli...
…is Jerry’s idea of hitting the FA market, we’re already screwed.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Well, he is saying that regardless of
personnel, he expects the coaching to be better. So, FA or no FA, he hired Marinelli with certainly high hopes of improvement, and told Lovie to handle-up on play calling.
You are right though… we need to do something forchristsakes in Free Agency or we are screwed.
Things will get better as they improve...
JA sounds a lot like Kenny Williams did a few months ago
sounds like maybe he got his new budget from ted phillips.
And that's perfectly understandable
but if that’s the case, don’t make it sound so negative on your coach. I interpret it as though we have a playoff-caliber team RIGHT NOW….which couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
If the budget was the issue...
they wouldn’t have made that absurdly high offer to St. Clair.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
I disagree
Jerry is not even remotely a good GM when it comes to long-term planning. If he couldn’t see Tait was on his last legs and if he couldn’t see that our OL was terrible, that’s his fault. Jerry deserves all the blame for that. That’s what you get for waiting around.
Maybe Phillips should take St. Clair’s new deal out of Angelo’s paycheck?
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Well... I was referring to the budget.
They obviously will spend the money, given the offer they made to St Clair.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Why dosen't
the press question JA more on the exact meaning of his statements. Are they afraid of him?
That is the exact reason
why I wouldn’t give me a media credential during Bourbonnais 2009 if I was the Bears organization. I would call him out on it, and I’d wind up on a YouTube video (ala Calhoun explosion).
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Telling it like it is!
I’d love to see it someday. A reporter/journalists gets fed up with the “canned” process of asking questions, and proceeds to berate a GM or coach.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
that would never happen
it’s more of an unwritten rule. doing something like that would rub other reporters the wrong way.if someone tries that, it’s almost like they are going out of the way to make a name for themselves. the guy who called out calhoun wasn’t even a real newspaper journalist. just some tree hugging geek.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 24, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
Probably not, but anything is possible.
If some disgruntled journalist decided ahead of time that he wanted to get fired, what better way then that?
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
JA never stated that he would bring in a QB through FA or the draft
until he says something along those lines then it’s best to take what he says about QB with a grain of salt
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 24, 2009 1:18 PM CST reply actions
"we've GOT to get better at the QB position!!"
that’s what he said. now he’s not going to do anything? he’s not that nuts.
like feeding a dog scraps under the table
you give em anything, they’ll take it.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 24, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree heavily
This is the same guy that, besides Chris Williams, didn’t touch our OL last offseason.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
But
it sounds like JA is throwing Lovie under the bus to save his own butt. He is the one holding the purse strings.
Sounds more like JA is throwing last year's fired coaches under the bus
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Angelo
The guy can only do so much in free agency. The owners are cheap. I don’t think Jerry took it upon himself to be very frugal in free agency so that he can save the owners money. Most likely scenario is that the owners told him “no” to big name free agents. It’s obvious for years now that the Bears mission is to use the draft instead of free agency. Which is fine, but you have to have a guy who is a talent evaluator guru on both sides of the ball.
Free Agency hasn't actually started yet
Maybe we should wait until it does before yelling at JA for being cheap?
Jerry Could Be Wasting our coaching talent
Regardless of how you feel about Lovie, and maybe he is too stubborn to give up on some things, etc. But at least he’s doing something! The man wins games. I realize that outside the Super Bowl year he’s only .500 but he is a good coach. And now he has brought in better coaches to make this team better but now the GM is saying “Screw bringing in high-price FAs we’ll use the draft.” OK, maybe you can do that. But we are in more of a “win now” mentality with the aging defense and crap o-line than we are a young team.
That means we need FA help more than drafting all the help. Honestly how many 1st year starters can you get out of a draft? Two? Maybe 3 if you’re lucky? Well by most people on here’s count we need at least 4 positions. That is a stretch to say we can find 4 good players in one draft who can make an immediate impact.
But what do I know? I’m not a GM….
by Sam Householder on Feb 24, 2009 1:57 PM CST reply actions
Thanks and Sure I'll take the Job
At least I could come on here and get some feedback from other people on what we need to do as well as let you guys in on who is really holding the purse tightly shut the GM or owners.
by Sam Householder on Feb 24, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Wait and see at this point.
Similar to before the draft, when anything you hear from GM’s is deceptive or an outright lie, we shouldn’t judge JA just on his statements yet. This could all be a smokescreen. If free agency opens with a flurry of signings and a week later, JA still has his thumb up his butt, then we can get out the pitchforks.
Yeah....
I’d love to wait and see. I mean, I have to wait a week before I’m proven right, but I’m fine with that.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
ChiFan
it sounds like you have a personal grudge against JA. I personally think he’s a pretty good GM (I am not saying he’s perfect, but he’s really really good at getting defensive starters in later rounds, offense on the other hand…), but this quote is taken out of context.
JA was mainly talking about the Defensive Line and Rod Marinelli. Now you’re claiming he’s putting Lovie on the Hot Seat?
Are you trying to tell me that the coaching was good last season? How about that Squib Kick with 11 seconds left in the Atlanta Game? there are so many other times this season where I was like WTF?!!? ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?
but nope, here you are wanting JA and the Bears to fail
“I’d love to wait and see. I mean, I have to wait a week before I’m proven right, but I’m fine with that.”
What are you a hack that works for ESPN just looking to generate news?
by JohnnyTruant on Feb 24, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
on a sidenote
I am from Rockford too, what up Rocktown!
NIC 9 represent
by JohnnyTruant on Feb 24, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Welp
it sounds like you have a personal grudge against JA
You are correct.
JA was mainly talking about the Defensive Line and Rod Marinelli. Now you’re claiming he’s putting Lovie on the Hot Seat?
A link would be superb right about now.
Are you trying to tell me that the coaching was good last season?
No, but Lovie did more with less. We had a piss-poor OL and no #1 or #2 receiver (BTW – Rashied Davis was on the roster).
but nope, here you are wanting JA and the Bears to fail
When did I say that? Please show me.
What are you a hack that works for ESPN just looking to generate news?
Ya know, I’ve been called worse. I’ll take that as a compliment.
I am from Rockford too, what up Rocktown!
For the future: You usually don’t want to call someone a ‘hack’ and then bond by throwin up the 815. But I’m glad to see that someone else from Rocktown’s on here.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Really?
it sounds like you have a personal grudge against JAYou are correct.
A “personal” grudge? What the heck did JA ever do to you personally?
Sorry if this is common knowledge around here or something, I haven’t been here long.
Well
he became a crappy general manager of one of my favorite sports teams. I could literally list hundreds of instances that he’s done something bad.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Wait a second
How crappy can a GM be when he helped the franchise make it to only it’s second SB? This organization was an absolute mess before ’01.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Want to hear what I think?
I didn’t think so but here it is anyway. Number one, Jerry is challenging the coaching staff in a big way. And he is right, we have some very talented football players. Number two, we have just under 30 million to work with, we will make some moves, just not for a Kurt Warner or a Jordan Gross. Number three, Jerry is going to have a great draft this year, we had forty reps at the combine.
Were going to the Super Bowl, the Bears are in there man!
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
Ya know
I’m amazed at how positive you always are, no matter how much of a beating you take. I’ve got nothing bad to say to you today….even if you are dilusional…. :) Come on I can’t just turn it off!!!!
If things came easy, then everybody would be great at what they did, let's face it.
Mike Ditka
Catch Phrase of the day: YAAAAAAAY! <---- Courtesy of ChiFan13.
by Ditkavsworld on Feb 24, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
how does having 40 people at the combine say anything about the draft?
Stay positive, but please don’t make false connections.
That’s like saying, I bought 40 tickets at the fair, and yet the guy with three tickets one the big prize.
I’ve blogs where the players were impressed with the Bears staff at the combine this year year, but that doesn’t mean the draft will be great. For one, we’ve been fairly inconsistent in drafting quality the last two years.
And also, there are 31 other teams, and 17 of them have a pick before us, so no matter how prepared one is or seems, there are plenty of chances the players the team wants won’t be on the board.
Then again, we really snuck in there last year many times to draft the likes of Earl (grey tea) Bennett. They said this guy could catch balls, that’s all he did in college. Then he gets to camp and apparently he needs a lot of working in catching the ball! And then, he has 0 catches all year, and can’t even get on the field on offense. Not to say he can’t turn it around, but that was a wasted pick for the now. Perhaps Bennett will go from 0 to …40 catches? But, for that to happen he’d have to move to RB or FB!
to clarify my analogy
having shear numbers means nothing if you didn’t buy the right ticket.
Way too early to get worked up over this
I mean, free agency hasn’t even started yet. How could JA already be throwing Lovie under the bus?
I honestly am not sure what the Bears are planning in free agency, but it seems likely that this team is going to be different in a week or two. I would definitely hold off on any speculation about what next year is going to be like until then.
then feel free too
I would definitely hold off on any speculation about what next year is going to be like until then.
other people want to bitch about what they think will happen, then be pleasantly suprised when it doesn’t, or angry that they are right. it gives us something to do in the offseason.
That's right Bullfrogy Frog.
I was thinking the same thing. Jerry may not be the greatest GM of all time and he certainly isn’t the worst and he is not oblivious to the state of our team, Daaa Bearssss, thank you very much!! Some of these guys want to get all in a tizzy and their underwear all in a bunch over what they interpret Angelo said. I agree with what you said, we need to wait and see what he is actually going to do in the draft and free agency once it starts before we go cry about how next year is gonna be worse than last year, right? Right!
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
JA and Lovie
I don’t think JA is the best GM however he is not the worst ever. the problem he has been facing, is that the reward your own policy has come back to bit him in the @#$ and he might have to go away from that policy now. see Vasher, Tillman, Urlacher, Harris, Hester, etc. JA just needs for someone to be in the room to pick offense on draft day. I think Lovie is a good head coach he is just really bad at picking assistants. Babich needed to go a long time ago. The problem with the coaching is that they have no ability at all to develop players and make them better, what a good coach should do. They can’t develop Olsen, hester or any wide receiver for that matter. When you see justin gage, wade, bradley playing better on other teams you kind of wonder. I am not saying that these guys are good all i am saying is that they seem to be playing better for other teams, which would suggest a coaching problem.
RE: JA and Lovie
I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. Lovie’s a good coach. JA is a good GM the Bears are a good team.
UNFORTUNATELY, good doesn’t quite cut it here.
As everybody knows, I don’t think Lovie and his staff get the most out of his players.
Once said players hit the lottery, they seem to disappear.
JA has his hits and misses like most GM’s.
His biggest mistake was in not letting Kurt Warner come in and compete for the starting job against Grossman. If you believe that QB is the most important position on the team (as everybody does) then you don’t hesitate to bring in a former league and SB MVP to challenge your #1 draft pick. It might have worked with Warner, it might not have. Not to give him, or anybody else you choose, the opportunity to compete for the starting job is kinda stupid.
Unfortunately, Angelo likes to CYA regarding his #1 picks (like Benson and Grossman). It hurts the team in the long run.
His biggest mistake is poor self evaluation.
Poor evaluation of his own performance,
Poor evaluation of his coaching staff’s performance,
Poor evaluation of his scouting department’s performance, and
Poor evaluation of his players’ performance.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Mind Set
I meant that more in his “Mind-Set” regarding the Warner situation than anything else. It does however, seem to be a common problem in the NFL.
Fast forward to Warner and the AZ. Cards. Dennis Green started Warner in 2005 then benched him for Leinart in the 5th game in Leinart’s rookie season, 2006 (the next game was the infamous Bears game on MNF).
In 2007 Leinart started and was injured early on. Warner came in and played great, throwing some 27 TD passses in 2007.
Inexplicably, Ken Whisenhunt named Leinart the starter going into 2008, even tough Warner had an MVP type of second half in 2007 while replacing an injured Leinart.
Fortunately for the Cards, Whisenhunt said that Warner could compete for the starting job with Leinart going into 2008. That made sense. Unfortunately, it’s a little confusing when you already named Leinart the starter. It made for a confusing offseason going right into opening day of 2008.
Fortunately for the Cards, Whisenhunt named Warner the starter last year and the rest is history.
Moral of the story: Unless your QB is named manning or Brady or Brees etc, the QB position (like every other job) should be open to competition.
Who knows how history would have unfolded, as well as the present, if Angelo had “allowed” Warner to compete with Grossman when they could have had him as a FA?
We finally agree Geo!
I think not signing Warner was JA’s biggest mistake, followed closely by trading TJ and allowing CB to be starting RB. I firmly believe that if Warner was playing in ‘06 they would’ve been champs. Just think about it….all the Bears needed was one TD drive in the second half to win.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Please stop drinking the thomas jones kool-aid
jones was traded because he was moping about his contract and he couldn’t get along with Benson. do you really think behind that line that in 2007 that jones would had fared any better? and as for warner, get over it. he did not want to come here and backup Rex. had he made that decision, he would had most certainly finished the ’06 season as starter. the only reason Grossman played started all 16 games in ’06 was because Greaseball was the backup.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 25, 2009 5:49 AM CST up reply actions
Thomas Jones
plain and simple was a better RB, but he was also highly respected in the locker room, whereas Benson was not respected at all (as much as any player I can ever remember hearing about). Besides making the team worse offensively, I think that decision, along with dumping Rivera, is where Lovie started to lose the team.
I don’t know that Warner would’ve had any more success here than he did in NY. He had shown there that he had trouble playing in the cold, and that he had trouble playing without a good line and good receivers. He landed in a dream situation in Arizona, I don’t think he would’ve had anywhere near that kind of success here.
DEJESUS!!!
Jones was signed to be our RB
then we brought on Benson. TJ knew his time was limited. He has every right to ask out. He did it behind closed doors and they came to an agreement.
I have no problems with TJ at all.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
If the Bears would
bother to do anything in offseason we wouldn’t have this issue.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
Lol...
Like when I was a kid… we didn’t have any toys, but our mother insisted we “go play.” So, we had to make stuff up to play with.
Difference is, we didn’t have the money to buy toys…
Things will get better as they improve...
We had the money and the toys
but I still made stuff up, so I’d probably still be talking about it.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
Don't put the emphasis on the Thomas Jones trade.
Place the emphasis on the decision to draft Benson, just one whole off-season after they signed Thomas Jones to begin with. Again… poor self-evaluation of their own roster. Angelo signed Jones to be the Marshall Faulk/Priest Holmes in Terry Shea’s offense. Then, when he fired Shea, he decided Jones was the wrong RB for Ron Turner’s offense, and drafted Benson.
That was a horrible, horrible draft to have a top 10 pick. But, they had already pre-decided to go RB anyway. Mistake.
But, as “ifuwanna” said: Jones wanted out of Chicago to score his last big payday on a new contract. It was openly obvious the Bears couldn’t give him that new contract after handing a $17 mil signing bonus to Benson.
Throughout the entire 2006 Super Bowl season, neither player really got along with eachother, and Jones quietly and admirably addressed is desire to be traded with the front office…. so he get that last big signing bonus.
When the Bears traded him to the Jets, New York awarded him with a new contract and signing bonus.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
RE: Don't put
While I agree with most of your post, I specifically remember JA saying that it wasn’t a “financial decision.” I know that I heard him say that (either live or in print).
Jones wanted to be the starter not a backup
he saw the writing on the wall and asked JA to trade him.
JA told him if he played that season he would trade him the next off season. So far as I read his being asked to be moved had nothing to do with money.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
Earth to WCG. Earh to WCG.
Wake up… it’s always about money, regardless of anything else you read.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
If TJ had issues with his contract
one year after he signed, then he is a bum.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
And I specifically remember JA saying...
that Chad Hutchinson was going to be our starting QB. He was cut two weeks later.
Get my point? Don’t listen to anything he says… it’s PR and Coach/GM speak.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Even Lovie was like...
“Huh? You excpect who to believe that?”
Things will get better as they improve...
LOL. It looks like lovie's saying you Mutha****a
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 25, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
Warner
That’s not exactly true with Warner. He can play in the cold. Most QB’s however, would obviously like to play in a dome/warm weather.
When Warner went to AZ, they had a terrible line and NO running attack. In the 18 years before Warner got there, the Cards had exactly two 1,000 yard rushers. TWO. In 18 years. The Cards started to get better when they brough in Edgerrin James and Russ Grimm as the O-Line coach.
Still, Warner had been benced twice for Matt Leinart. Leianrt was named the starter BEFORE last season. Warner, given a chance to compete, won the job before the first game.
Warner’s situation, prior to 2008, was anything but a dream for him.
Rookie, 1st Round QB's
For the most part this becomes a big problem. Often, guys like Grossman, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Vince Young and others are drafted high and management and the fans want them in ASAP. And these guys usually just aren’t ready for it.
Back in the day, young QB’s sat for years before they got their chance. Now because of the cap and FA, these guys are rushed almost right away. Defenses are far more complex now than they used to be, and yet these “college kids” are often asked to play right away, and play well!
It’s often counterproductive. The player struggles and the team struggles and often a potentially good player is ruined mainly because of the high expectations that come with his draft status.
Guys like Orton and Aaron Rodgers benefit by sitting as long as they have before starting (and yes I know Orton played his rookie season, but then sat for the next two years).
Jones
Was a Pro-Bowl RB and a TEAM LEADER. Nobody liked Benson. Worse, the reason for the trade, as stated by JA, wasn’t money. The Bears could afford both. It was because of tension between Benson & Jones. And since Benson was JA’s 1st round pick, he shipped Jones out of town (for almost nothing. That was stupid also).
You miss the point about Warner. I’ll repeat it. Unless you have a franchise type QB on your roster (Manning, Brady, Brees, McNabb) you don’t prevent a QB from competing with “your” starter.
If Warner had signed, and been given a FAIR opportunity to win the job, it’s a NO-BRAINER!
If Grossman wins, you’ve got a solid veteran in Warner, with a SB ring and an MVP trophy, as your back-up. That’s a good thing (look at the Titans last year for a similar situation).
If Warner wins the job, then that must mean that Grossman needs to learn more and get better. A young QB can learn a lot from a guy like Warner. Just ask Eli and Leinart.
Either way, it’s win/win.
That’s the point.
BTW:
I responded to your last post yesterday on the subject of “Lovies Defense” at 11:27 AM.
I don’t know if you saw it or not.
Yep, responded just a second ago.
Sweetness all the way!
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
The 2009 free agency pool of talent stinks, and yet Jerry Angelo is being scorched for not going after free agents?!?
Help me out on this one. Please explain how Angelo can be criticized for saying the Bears won’t be major players in free agency. Also, it is proven fact that teams reliant on free agency are very often disappointed with the results.
Bears are in a rebuilding mode despite the proclamation to the contrary by the clueless members of this board. There are major and multiple holes that can’t possibly all be filled via the draft. And it is proven fact that the majority of draft picks contribute marginally at best during their rookie campaigns.
Also, I still don’t get criticism of Minnesota’s acquisition of Sage Rosenfels. The kid has a quality arm and only cost a 4th round pick. Both Rosenfels and Tavaris Jackson have more upside potential than Kyle Orton.
Free Agents
I agree with you about Free Agents in general and this year in particular. Teams that break the bank and sign a Haynesworth, for example, will pretty much end up paying for an underferforming player, if not in his first year, soon thereafter.
On Sage...
I think it is a stupid move for them, good for the Bears, because they gave a 4th round pick to get a 30 year old career backup quarterback. Plus, I think that it would look like I had a quality arm if I was throwing to Andre Jonhson, Berrian is good but he is nowhere near that good.
Why is everybody hating on Orton, I know he ended the year slow, but before that ankle injury he was being talked about as a Pro-Bowl QB. So I don’t know how you are getting more upside with Rosenfels and Jackson. Rosenfels is to old to have upside anymore and I really don’t know what to say about Jackson.
I've heard
He really doesn’t like Chris Simms. :)
I have no link to back that up though.
If things came easy, then everybody would be great at what they did, let's face it.
Mike Ditka
Catch Phrase of the day: YAAAAAAAY! <---- Courtesy of ChiFan13.
by Ditkavsworld on Feb 25, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
Simms
When there was talk of Chris coming to Chicago, all Phil kept saying was how much he liked Orton. Said he’s been following him from college and that he really likes the way Orton played last year.
Proven fact?
Also, it is proven fact that teams reliant on free agency are very often disappointed with the results.
I’d love to see the study, please. Link?
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
yeah no shit
how about some actual facts around here.
LOL...
I can provide any facts for him… but I can say that in theory: Teams who are over-reliant on free agency to build their team, are just trying to get a quick-fix for numerous draft mistakes. And, teams who make numerous draft mistakes are usually pretty bad teams.
Free agency should be used as a complementary addition to the draft…. or as a luxury item. If you try to build a team via free agency, you’re going to run out of money quickly… and the depth chart on your roster is going to suffer for it.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
"can't provide"
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
I realize that
I know exactly what you mean and exactly what he means.
Also, it is proven fact that teams reliant on free agency are very often disappointed with the results.
But if you’re going to say something as clueless as that and try to make it a fact, be prepared to back it up.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
WHO are the free agents you want the Bears to go after?!?
Seriously, you’re one of the clueless minions around here that makes brilliant statements of the obvious that all the Bears need to do is have a draft like 1983 and sign a number of top free agents.
WHO are these great free agent signings that are going to magically turn around the Bears in one season?!? And YES, it is a proven fact that heavy reliance on free agency is a strategy doomed to failure in the NFL. Look at the Washington Redskins as Exhibit A.
LOL
So essentially, you don’t have anything to back it up. You’re one of the clueless minions who go around proclaiming ridiculous statements as facts. That’s fine with me, it’s not my credibility.
Seriously, you’re one of the clueless minions around here that makes brilliant statements of the obvious that all the Bears need to do is have a draft like 1983 and sign a number of top free agents.
1. Did I ever say they need to sign a top free agent? Go find that “statement” that I never made and come back to me.
2. And yes, if we have a good draft like 1983 was, we’ll drastically reduce our needs. Wanna challenge that statement, too?
3. Please enlighten us as to why Sage Rosenfels has higher upside than T-Jack or Orton.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Redskins
Throwing money at FA’s is dangerous and usually stupid.
A FA signing here and then, done right, makes sense.
Beyond that, a team is left with it’s draft choices and it’s coaches.
+1
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 25, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
Lovie Smith is a good head coach, Jerry Angelo is an average general manager
That would be my summation of things. Lovie takes ridiculously too much blame in Chicago. Ditto Ron Turner who has had ridiculously little to work with on offense during his return tenure with the Bears.
I concur
I think everyone forgets where this franchise was entering the 2000….down the shitter.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
RE: Lovie
And here, I somewhat disagree (as everybody knows). Lovie is a good coach, but he needs to be better. I see where Angelo is coming from. Lovie and Company need to do a better job of “coaching his players up.” He needs to do a better job of challenging his players.
I believe in that.
Mike Singletary won 4 out of his last 5 games in SF. He did this with Shaun Hill as his QB. Hill played in NFL Europe between stops in Minnesota and San Franciso. During that five game stretch, the 49ers were the first West Coast team to win on the East coast (Buffalo).
The same players that got Mike Nolan fired got Singletary the permanent HC’ing job.
He made those players “just a little bit better” than they were under Nolan. Not a whole lot. Just a little bit. Basically, that’s all it takes.
Yeah but
Shaun hill was good before mike became coach. ie: end of 2007
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Feb 25, 2009 5:57 AM CST up reply actions
Hill
Having watched all of Hill’s games in 2008, he wins “ugly.” He’s a tough QB mentally and ohysically who shows a lot of leadership; that said, he’s often hard to watch in the passing game.
In the Niners game against the Rams (which SF did win) Singletary almost benched Hill in the 3rd quarter because he was playing so horribly. When asked later what Singletary said to/thought about Hill on the sidelines, Singletary said “I wanted to choke him.”
That said, I agree with what chase 17 said above about Orton. Before he was hurt he played great. After that, he came back to soon and he should have probably sat for a few more games after his injury. A healthy Grossman would have been better than an injured Orton.
Lovie just wants to be loved
My impression is that last season (pre season and during the season) Lovie did too much coddling of veterans. Supposably Marinelli does not coddle. Staring camp(?) 3 months earlier seems like a move in the right direction to me. No coddling means no 4th quarter or goal line choking (IMO) and seems to be the one thing that consistently good franchises (NE and Pbgh) have in common.
JA has made only 2 picks that I liked Hester (loved it at the time) and Forte (JA got it right even though I doubted). and IMO JA doesnt seem like a very creative individual willing to think outside the box, instead trying to mold the team via draft and FA with people that fit inside his box (ha) whatever that may be.
He did, for sure
He coddled the defense especially, blaming their subpar 2007 performance on injuries. Never would have guessed what would happen during last season…
I hope he goes after the players this year, especially on D. The D definitely needs a wakeup call.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
Human Nature
If you and your co-workers aren’t doing the best job you can, but your boss kind of makes excuses for the perfomance, subconsciously you buy into that. It becomes YOUR excuse.
If however, a “new” boss comes and says I don’t want to hear any excuses, everybody here has to do better, I pretty much think everybody there will try to do better.
Lovie lacks the motivational skills needed to make his team play up to and beyond their capabilities.
I would love to see
your list of top-10 coaches and
top-10 overrated coaches.
I am getting used to the nature of your comments, in every thread you visit, but I think now would be an appropriate time to bring all of your coaching opinions to a crescendo.
What do ya got?
Things will get better as they improve...
Well,
Based on the nature of most of your conversations, I would like to know your all-time lists.
Things will get better as they improve...
Coaching
I think it was you the other day who said Peyton Manning would make a great OC. I agree. Manning as a HC? NO WAY!
Great offensive player/mind. Not much of a leader. When their kicker criticized bot Manning and Dungy for their leadership skills, I totally agreed.
The problem in the NFL is that most HC’s are promoted from being an OC and DC. More often than not it’s the exciting hot OC that gets a job the next year.
Josh McDaniels and Todd Haley both just got such a promotion to the AFC West. Based on what I know, my prediciton is that Haley will be the better HC. McDaniels is a Belichick coordinator, and none of those guys have done very well in the NFL as HC. Haley is a Parcells disciple, who mostly have done very well in the NFL.
We’ve seen Haley and his players (like Warner and Boldin) going face-to-face on the sidelines. He’s a lot like Parcells that way (who gave him his coaching break in the NFL). He’s a true leader. He’ll let his players know EXACTLY what’s on his mind at any given moment.
Larry Fitzgerald credits Haley (and Boldin) for making him even better this past year.
Fitzgerald had one weakness in his game. He wasn’t very good at gaining “yards after the catch.” He had a tendency to almost fall down after he caught the ball. After the 2007 season, he worked on that weakness (after Haley sat down with him and showed him proof of it).
Near the end of this past season, Fitzgerald thanked Boldin and Haley for helping improve this part of his game. He specifically thanked Haley "For stepping on my throat this year and not letting off (with regards to improving his YAC).
Skip Bayless, who’s been around football forever, said something a month ago on ESPN that I’ve been saying for a long time: “Just because a guy’s a good coordinator DOESN”T mean he’ll be a good HC." The skill set for both is almost mutually exclusive.
Last year we saw three coaches hired who were not Oc’s or DC’s hired as HC’s: Tony Sparano, John Harbaugh (who was a special teams coordinator) and Mike Singletary.
They were brought in for their leadership skills FIRST. X’s and O’s SECOND. That doesn’t mean that those guys aren’t good/great at X’s and O’s. It just means that they have great leadership skills FIRST.
Way, way too often guys are promoted to HC that have no business rising above the coordinator position. Wade Phillips and Norv Turner are two of the best examples ever of this.
Jerry Rice, said of Turner (his HC in Oakland) “He could not motivate his players. He had no control.” Things are so laughable in Dallas that Wade recently said “If you’re not going to change the HC (fire him), then the HC has to change (get tougher). That’s ridiculous. That’s almost like Mr. Rogers saying "I’m going to start being a real meanie with the kids now.”
Who can even take that seriously. Now, Jerry Jones has said that Phillips will be the teams DC. Basically, what you have in Dallas is a team with NO HC. What a mess.
Those are the clearest examples of the problem with hiring excellent coordinators who aren’t great leaders.
My personal opinion is that too many HC’s in the NFL, while more than qualified from an X and O standpoint, are underqualified when it comes to leading 53 men to the promised land.
So....
I would love to see
your list of top-10 coaches and
top-10 overrated coaches.
Things will get better as they improve...
Overrated
One of the all-time classic overrated HC’s is Mike Shanahan. He won two SB’s with one of the greatest QB’s ever. After Elway left, Shanahan, with total control of the team, won exactly ONE playoff game (against four losses). That’s the exact same number of playoff games the Cardinals won during that same decade.
If you had asked people, a few years ago, who was one of the worst NFL franchises, they would have (correctly) said the Cardinals. If you asked those same people who was one of the better HC’s in the NFL, I’m pretty sure Shanahan would have made that list.
Fact is Shanahan is a GREAT offensive mind, and a pretty mediocre HC (without a HOF’er like Elway on his team).
Okay... now you are getting somewhere...
Just please tell me you aren’t going to provide each of your top-10s in its own individual comment…
Things will get better as they improve...
Johnson/Switzer
I can’t possibly go through a whole list of overrated and underrated.
My main point is that some guys are great motivators and others are not.
Jimmy Johnson was a 10, on my scale of motivators. He said that after the Cowboys won their first SB, he was a bigger tyrant the next year than the year they won it. That’s almost hard to believe, but I heard him say it.
Johnson majored in industrial psychology in college. He knew that complacency would set in after their SB win, so he “upped” the intensity the next year.
By contrast, Barry Switzer rates a 0 on my scale as a motivator. That’s why Aikman didn’t like him and openly criticized him for it. He saw Switzer as undoing all the great things that JJ had done. Great players like Aikman and Irvin and others want/need to win and will pay the price necessary to do so.
The second year under Switzer the Cowboys won the SB but many players afterward gave Switzer NO credit and said that they basically coached themselves that year.
To me Lovie rates a 5 on that type of scale. Not great like JJ and not a joke like Switzer. That why I say that he’s a good coach. Unfortunately Chicago deserves and the Bears need a GREAT HC to win it all.
That’s just my opinion.
Crappy GM, good coach
I’ve lived in Denver now for 11 years, and from my perspective Shanny was a very good coach but lacked the skills to be an effective GM. While drafting well on offense, he was atrocious on the defensive side of the ball. His questionable decision making included acquiring the entire Browns’ defensive line a few years back. It was written that he could’ve kept his job if he fired his DC after the season ended, but he refused. Thus his firing.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
RE: Crappy
You live in Denver? I KNEW there was something about you I liked.
I have to splt hairs with you a little bit here. He had total control there.
Unfortunately for Shanahan, football is offense AND defense (as well as special teams).
Like you say, he was terrible in acquiring defensive players (FA & draft).
Could he be a good/great HC with a team that had good players on both sides of the ball (say the Steelers, Titans, Giants etc)? Probably so.
But, since HIS Broncos were so terrible defensively (players and coaches) and since he had COMPLETE control there (probably more control than any other NFL coach during that time) I have to drastically mark down his grade as a HC (not as an OC).
Having a forte’ (like offense) is great. Having a terrible defense to go along with it isn’t.
But, a lot of it is perception, based mainly on the media.
Buddy Ryan, to most people was a failed HC in Philadelphia. Most people say he had a great defense and average offense there (kind of the reverse of Shanahan).
NOTHING could be further from the truth. Of course his defense was the stronger unit. That said he had an exciting high scoring offense led by Randall Cunningham (whom Ryan inherited) and guys like Keith Byars and Keith jackson (whom Ryan drafted).
Ryan’s Eagles were FAR more balanced than Shanahan’s Broncos. And yet Ryan was always (incorrectly) disparaged for his lack of offense and only just recently has Shanahan been disparage (correctly) for his lack of defense.
Perception is funny. Most Niner fans are up in arms over Mike Singletary’s stated desire to play smash mouth football. The talk about the 85 Bears as having no offense and being like the 2000 Ravens (who I think weent five consecutive games without scoring an offensive TD).
Until . . . I point out to them that he 85 Bears led the NFC in scoring that year. That little tidbit shocks the Hell out of them.
The Essence of Great Coaching
This is a section lifted from an article on ESPN.com about new Jets HC Rex Ryan:
But managing personalities is a significant part of coaching.
Rob Burnett, a Ravens defensive end when Rex Ryan came on board and now the team’s radio analyst, delivered a line that sounded an awful lot like what Buddy’s players used to say about him.
“Guys will jump on a grenade to save his job,” Burnett said. “He has a history of guys playing their guts out because they want him around. Guys play for him, and in today’s game that’s rarely seen.”
Skills
I think he has the motivational skills, he has just taken the wrong approach. Being a nice guy/coddler or whatever isn’t a terrible thing, but only when it is leveraged into actually motivating the squad when he does decide to get angry. The idea being, if Lovie who is such a nice guy is actually pissed that means this is serious and they (the players) need to step it up.
Angelo does think outside the box...
…if he’s the one who’s responsible for moving players away from their best positions and to ones which their skillsets aren’t optimal for. That’s not the kind of thing everyone thinks of doing!
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