How does Angelo measure up?
by tomas21 on Mar 8, 2009 7:26 PM CDT
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PrintLet's compare Jerry Angelo's drafting success with that of the worst teams (Lions) and the best (the Chargers--I think AJ Smith does the best job drafting) from 2002-2006. 2007 and 2008 are probably too soon to call, so I'm leaving them out.
I am only rating 1st-4th round success, as 5th-7th round picks have a very low rate of impact. With few exceptions, their upside is as a special teamer/3rd string role. This may be important to a team, but I'm not including it because it is too hard to decide what constitutes a good late round pick.
The scoring will be as follows. It is a pass/fail system. The player drafted either meets the success criteria or they don't. If they don't meet the success criteria due to injury, they still get a fail. Players picked in the top half of the first round need to be pro-bowlers or near-pro bowlers. Players picked in the bottom half of round one should be one of the best players on their team. Players picked in the second round should be above average on their team. Players picked in the third and fourth round should be starters. No GM will make this cut 100% of the time, but the better GMs should have higher numbers.
Players named will have a P (pass) or F (fail) next to their name.
First Round Picks:
Smith: 2006 Antonio Cromartie (P); 2005 Shawn Merriman (P); Luis Castillo (P); 2004 Philip Rivers (P); 2003 Sammy Davis (F); 2002 Quentin Jammer (F-he was extended, so they like him, but he didn't meet 5th overall pick expectations)
Millen: 2006 Ernie Sims (F-good player, but not worth 9th overall pick); 2005 Mike Williams (F), 2004 Roy Williams (P), Kevin Jones (F-injuries); 2003 Charles Rogers (F); 2002 Joey Harrington (F)
Angelo: 2006 (none); 2005 Benson (F!); 2004 Tommie Harris (P); 2003 Michael Haynes (F), Rex Grossman (F); 2002 Marc Colombo F)
Results: Smith 4/6=66%, Millen 1/6=16%, Angelo 1/5=20%
Second Round Picks:
Smith: 2006 Marcus McNeil (P); 2005 Vincent Jackson (P); 2004 Igor Olshansky (P); 2003 Drayton Florence (F), Terrance Kiel (F); 2002 Toniu Fonoti (F), Reche Caldwell (F)
Millen: Daniel Bullocks (F); 2005 Shaun Cody (F); 2004 Teddy Lehman (P); 2003 Boss Bailey (F-injuries); 2002 Kalimba Edwards (P)
Angelo: Danieal Manning (I'm calling him a fail because he's done as much bad on D as he's done good on KRs), Devin Hester (P); 2005 Mark Bradley (F); 2004 Tank Johnson (F); 2003 Peanut (P); 2002 none
Results: Smith 3/7=43% Millen 2/5=40% Angelo 2/5=40%
Third Round Picks:
Smith: 2006 Charlie Whitehurst (F); 2005 none; 2004 Nate Kaeding (P), Nick Hardwick (P); 2003 Courtney Van Buren (F); 2002 Ben Leber (P)
Millen: 2006 Brian Calhoun (F), 2005 Stan Wilson (F); 2004 Keith Smith (F); 2003 Corey Redding (P); 2002 Andre Goodman (F)
Angelo: 2006 Dusty Dvoracek (F); 2005 none; 2004 Bernard Berrian (P); 2003 Lance Briggs (P); 2002 Roosevelt Williams (F); Terrence Metcalf (P)
Results: Smith 3/5=60%, Millen 1/5=20% Angelo 3/5=60%
Fourth Round Picks:
Smith: 2006 none; 2005 Darren Sproles (P); 2004 Shaun Phillips (P); 2003 Matt Wilhelm (P); 2002 Justin Peele (F)
Millen: 2006-2004 none; 2003 Artose Pinner (F); 2002 John Taylor (F)
Angelo: 2006 Jamar Williams (F); 2005 Kyle Orton (P); 2004 Nate Vasher (P) Leon Joe (F); 2003 Todd Johnson (F), Ian Scott (P); 2002 Alex Brown (P)
Results: Smith 3/4=75% Millen 0/2=0% Angelo 4/7=57%
My Analysis: Angelo is a mixture of good and bad. He is horribly bad in the first 2 rounds--he is almost as bad as Matt Millen in the first 2 rounds, and Millen is the joke of the NFL. However, in the third and fourth rounds, Angelo compares favorably to AJ Smith, regarded as one of the best drafters in the league.
I think that the early rounds typically give you your high end talent, and the middle rounds tend to give you your quality depth. Perhaps that's the reason the Bears always seem to have a deep team without enough top end talent to succeed in the playoffs.
I think for a team that supposedly is built through the draft, Angelo needs to do a much better job in the first 2 rounds. Otherwise, he's going to need to make up for his early round draft failures with premium free agents.
hat tip to allhailmark for the post idea.
This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.
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Well that was kind of interesting.
I’ll go ahead and look at is as you have and say that if AJ Smith is one of the best and Millen is the worst than I would have to admit that Angelo is a lot closer the Smiths than he is to the Millens (According to how Tomas21 has put it). And that I disagree with at least 2 maybe 3 of the players being considered to fail from the Bears. So, IF, Smith is the best than Jerry is pretty damn good! That’s right Jerry! Your one of the best damn it! Let’s giterdone!
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
He's closer to the Smiths...
But far from a Grabowski. Angelo needs to figure out how to get a smart FS now (and he let them all slide by in free agency except MIKE BROWN. Jerry, please grow a pair and bring back Mike Brown for depth if nothing else) and give us much, much, much needed depth at DE. After next year almost every Bear at the DE will be facing free agency. Let’s bring back the roar on the Bears defense and let the Smiths/Angelos fall where they may.
For the record
I chose Smith as he is known as a pure drafter, and one of the best. He’s probably not the best GM in the league, but I think he’s one of the best drafters. The Patriots, Steelers and Colts are probably the best-run teams, but are just below the level of Smith, imo, as drafters.
Looking back on it, the numbers suggest that Millen, Smith and Angelo are all about equal in terms of second round drafting ability, so maybe all Jerry needs to do is let someone else make his first round pick. I’m sure there are many willing parties in the Chicagoland community.
DEJESUS!!!
yeah
did a great job drafting Eli Manning.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you being sarcastic?
If you are, that is ignorant, because picking Eli Manning might have been on of the better picks in the last decade. He traded Eli Manning for picks used to select Philip Rivers, Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. How many other teams got so much out of one pick? He knew Eli didn’t want to play for them, but took him anyways because he had so much value in trade.
DEJESUS!!!
not being sarcastic, being honest
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
RE: Are you being sarcastic:
You are absolutely correct, tomas21. It’s called highway robbery. And AJ Smith held the gun in his hands!
I'm a little curious about how to determine the near pro bowlers from the pro bowlers.
How do you determine if a player was near the pro bowl?
Isn’t that kinda like saying, “I went fishing and I almost caught a fish and I almost saw the fish”
How do I know that I almost saw the fish?
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
That is kind of dumb
Players are voted into the pro bowl. You can finish near the top of the voting but still not make it. That would make you a near-pro bowl caliber player. For example, Matt Ryan, Brnadon Jacobs, Dwayne Bowe and Calvin Johnson were all near Pro Bowl level, but didn’t actually make the pro bowl. It’s not a difficult concept. Are you just being argumentative?
DEJESUS!!!
I lol'd.
I like your post… I will definitely be in contact with you and allhailmark for future articles!
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Take it easy, I just said I was curious.
An old man told me that little joke a long time ago and I thought it was fitting. No need to get edgy. I didn’t know you were taking this post so seriously. I’m sorry, I guess.
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
I don't take it seriously
but your post didn’t make any sense.
DEJESUS!!!
well, I don't think NEAR pro bowlers makes any sense.
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
I don't know what to tell you
It’s really not a hard concept. Players are voted in. The top 3 or so at each position make it. So whoever was 4th or 5th in voting would be near pro bowlers. They play at a very high level, but not quite high enough (or not in the right city, but that’s another topic) to make it to the pro bowl. That separates a Calvin Johnson, who is an excellent WR but not a pro bowler, from say Marty Booker, who was a starter but nothing special.
If you want my honest opinion, it’s that you’ve been waiting to use that fish analogy, and you tried to force it into this situation, and now you are trying to pretend that you don’t understand this very basic and straightforward concept to make the analogy seem apt. I don’t have an issue with you like many here do, but I really don’t get what is so hard to understand here.
DEJESUS!!!
OK if that's the case...
then why did Manning get a “fail” when he was a “near pro bowler” at kick returner? I think it’s premature to rank players as a pass or fail(especially when you aren’t an NFL scout) when all you take into consideration is what they have done in their time with the team. players like Dvoracek are still on the team and has a lot of time left to turn it around. Rex grossman is a fail? really? he’s the first QB to start a whole season since Kramer, the first QB to lead the bears to the super bowl since McMahon and they resigned him. Roy Williams is a pass even though he was traded? Berrian was a pass? how so?
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
reply
Manning. I explained my rationale in the post. I gave Manning a fail because he (in my opinion) has done as much damage on defense as he has done good at returning kicks, and he only returned kicks for one season. I don’t think the intention when picking someone in the top half of the second round is to get someone who is a good kick returner but a liability on defense. Some may quibble with him being a liability on defense, or blame it on the defense, but to my eyes he gets beat or is out of position way too much to be relied on.
Grossman. Yes, really. Starting a whole season is not the measure of success of a qb, particularly one taken in the first round. Ryan Fitzpatrick started every game—does that mean he is a success? Grossman has a career passer rating of 70, missed most of his first 3 seasons with the Bears, and had more turnovers than TDs in the year he “led” the Bears to the Super Bowl. In the first 1/3 of the season he was leading the team to the super bowl, but after that I think most would agree that the defense led them there, and they survived Grossman’s mistakes. That is not what you hope to get out of a qb taken in the first round, so yes, he is a fail.
Berrian. On what planet would Berrian not be a good third round pick? Berrian was taken in the third round and was a very productive WR for us. So productive he signed a huge contract as soon as he hit FA. How would that not make him a pass? Wouldn’t you take a player as good as Berrian with your third round pick every year?
Williams. This was a close call, but he was a pro bowler and netted them a pretty huge bounty in trade. It probably wasn’t quite what they were hoping to get out of him, but if you are able to turn your first round pick into a pro bowl and get a first and second for him in his contract year, that is pretty solid.
“I think it’s premature to rank players as a pass or fail(especially when you aren’t an NFL scout) when all you take into consideration is what they have done in their time with the team”
First, if you can get an NFL scout to come in and write articles for the site, feel free. Until then all we have is amateur analysis. Second, we are analyzing whether players were good draft picks. Being a good draft pick means you were valuable to the team drafting you. So if Dusty doens’t do anything for us, but then goes on to play at a high level for some other team later in his career, he’s still a failed pick because he didn’t do anything for the team drafting him. Teams don’t draft players to someday, somewhere be a good player, they draft them to contribute to their team, hopefully soon. The only thing that matters is what they are able to do for the team that drafted them, which in Dusty’s case isn’t much. I intentionally left off the last 2 drafts because it’s too soon to say whether the players drafted were successful or not.
DEJESUS!!!
point taken
still, too many factors play out to say if players were good draft picks or not. i think manning is a good draft pick, just the victim of being moved around too much. as far as Dvoracek is concerned, the jury’s still out on him. i can’t agree with you saying Jamar Wiliams is a fail, seeing that he was drafted for depth and has played well when coming in to replace Briggs.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Other comparison
I did for fun was to compare who Angelo has taken in the first round in 2002-2006 with who the concensus choice from the Bears blogging community. The fan choice is based on my recollection of who people wanted, and there is boviously never unanimousness.
2002: Angelo :Colombo Fans: Patrick Ramsey
Edge: Fans, but not by much. Ramsey has been nothing more than a serviceable backup, but Colombo never did anything.
2003: Angelo: Haynes/Grossman Fans: Byron Leftwich
Edge: Fans. Leftwich has a career passer rating of 80, 10 points higher than Grossman’s 70. Grossman did take the team to a Super Bowl, but Haynes was a complete bust.
2004: Angelo: Tommie Harris Fans: Tommie Harris
2005: Angelo: Cedric Benson Fans: Mike Williams
Edge: Tie. Both players were busts. You could give the edge to the fans since Williams wasn’t quite as poisonous as Benson, but Benson was more productive.
2006: Angelo: Danieal Manning and Dusty Dvoracek (via trading down) Fans: Marcedes Lewis or Chad Jackson
edge: Angelo. We needed a TE and a WR. I was really hoping Santonio Holmes would fall to us (and I kind of think Angelo was, as well), but Pittsburgh traded right in front of us. Lewis has been serviceable at best, and Jackosn was a bust.
I score it as fans 2, Angelo 1, and 2 ties. So maybe Angelo should have us make the picks after all.
DEJESUS!!!
This is what doesn't make any sense.
Cedric Benson and Mike Williams a tie? Williams has been a complete bust. Benson is far from a bust. Of course it didn’t work out the way we would have liked but a bust? No.
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
Benson
averaged like 3 yards a carry, held out, sat out the super bowl with a phantom injury, divided the locker room, was responsible (because of his presence) for a very good RB leaving the team, and embarrassed the franchise.
Williams was a bust, but I think you could make a reasonable argument that Benson was more damaging to his franchise than Williams.
DEJESUS!!!
Benson was more damaging to himself than the Bears.
Benson is a RB and has more receptions, 46 than Williams, 44. His first 2 years he averaged over 4 yards per carry. Benson has 2340 yards and 12 tds. Williams played only one season with Detroit and is now on his third team and has a total of 539 yards and 2 tds.
You can’t call that a tie, Benson at least made it 3 years with the Bears. How can you honestly call that a tie?
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
Benson
And JA’s desire to protect his pick directly cost the Bears TJ. Period.
In JA’s desire to protect his pick he gave away Jones, his pick then bombed out (surprising ABSOLUTELY nobody, and we’re left with nothing. Way to go JA.
In one fell swoop JA cost us a # 1 pick AND a Pro-Bowl RB. That, my freinds, takes F’ing talent.
Most NFL GM’S have probably never come closing to accomplishing that feat.
TJ would look pretty good in the backfield with Forte right now.
Never come closing?
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
Your list
Is good. However, the problem with evaluating draft picks is that it almost completely ignores things like coaching and organizations/systems and player attitude.
Thomas Jones is a perfect example of this. The Arizona Cardinals passed up Brian Urlacher in 2000 to take Jones with the 7th pick. In three years he was a complete bust. He couldn’t wait to leave Arizona and the Cards couldn’t wait for him to go.
After a year in TB he, of course, went to the Bears and the Pro-Bowl.
How did he go from being a bust to the Pro-Bowl? I doubt that Jones became a better runner later on in his career. Three factors might help explain this:
#1. Coaching. Jones was coached by the Vince Tobin/Dave McGinnis regime in Phoenix. They were not exactly known for developing young players.
#2. Team/System. In the first 18 years in Arizona (before the arrival of Edgerrin James) the Cardinals had exactly two 1,000 yd. rushers. Two. In 18 years. That’s beyond pathetic. Jones went from one of the worst rushing teams in Phoenix to a team historically noted for running the ball well in Chicago.
#3. Player attitude. It would be fair to say that a young player might have a better attitude after leaving his first team as a failure and going to his next. Perhaps that player’s attitude had something to do with his poor performance in the first place. From outside the locker room, it’s hard to know.
I think the team, it’s coaching and perhaps it’s system plays a big part in the success or failure of it’s players (young and old).
That becomes the central question. Were all those failed Detroit Lions bad players, or did their perfromance/potential suffer greatly by being drafted by a terrible team.
Take Ernie Simms. Maybe on a better team (with better coaching and/or a better defense) Simms becomes a much better player (worthy of the 9th pick).?
Maybe a lot of those Charger players were able to maxamize their abilities by playing on an excellent team under one of the best regular season coaches ever in the NFL (Marty Shottenheimner)?
I swear to everything holy in this universe...
If anyone chooses to get into a debate about coaching styles with GeoMak, I wish the itchiest of rashes upon you…
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
I wouldn't recomend swearing to anything holy.
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
Dude
It’s about the team/system/coach, as well as the player and his abilities. It’s hard to separate the two.
Jones was a Bust and then a Pro-Bowler.
Those two ar COMPLETE opposites. There has to be a reason.
I’m sorry that I look a little “deeper” than some other fans.
Joe Montana/Tom Brady. If they are two of the great QB’s ever, why did every team (including their own) pass on them numerous times in the draft?
Both those guys (beyond talent) had:
A). A chip on their shoulders the size of Texas over their where they were drafted.
B) A burning desire for greatness.
C) COACHING: Montana had Walsh. No more needs to be said. It’s doubtful that if Joe Montana had been drafted by the St. Louis Cardinals, that he’d be in the HOF by now. Brady had Belichick and more importantly his QB coach who he greatly credits for his success.
I'm confused
Are you agreeing or disagreeing or what are you talking about?
Passion For The Game, Loyal To The Name, Chicago Bears, I Trust In Thee, Standing Strong Since 1983.
I'm talking about listing players
as Hit or Miss without any consideration of the sysem/team they were drafted into.
There’s nothing wrong with a list like the one made by tomas21. As I said it’s revealing. That said, there’s more to the equation.
Thomas Jones went from Bust to the Pro-Bowl. I seriously doubt that his running abilty improved greatly as time went on for him. No actually, I would say that he was drafted by a dysfuntional team that had one of the worst O-Lines and running attacks in the NFL, as evidenced by only two 1,000 yd. rushers in 18 years.
He then went to almost the exact opposite situation in Chicago. Same player, far different circumstance and result.
Montana ( and Brady) were allowed to reach their fullest potential by being drafted into teams/systems/coaches that were fully able to help them maxamize that potential.
Natural progression?
You’re leaving out another factor in a player’s development. Many highly-touted players take time for the “light to come on.” TJ is definitely someone who would fit into this category. Did you ever think that it might have been TJ who was at fault for not playing well out of the gates?
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Read (Before you criticize)
My post at 7:37 (YOUR LIST), OK. #3 – Player Attitude. . .
Although, having lived in Phoenix, I’d say it was a LOT more of a case of having a dreadful O-Line and playing for a dysfunctional organization than TJ’s attitude.
Some of you guys like to argue just to argue and even then don’t take the time to read and fully understand what is being said for you start to argue.
There’s an old saying inPhoenix that players had to leave there to go on to greatness/success and/or just to be noticed around the league.
BTW: How many Patriot players get better after they leave NE and Bill Belichick? Pittsburgh players?
Buddy Ryan went to Philadelphia in 1986. He drafted a LOT of Pro-Bowl players there, many in later rounds like Seth Joyner in round 8. I can’t think of many (if any) of his players that left and got better.
The incidences of players leaving and getting better (and it definitely happens) almost ALWAYS happens when a player leaves a crappy team/coach/organization and goes to a better situation.
Your post, however misdirected at criticizing me, actually provides further evidence of the point I was trying to make in my original post.
Thank You.
Wasn't trying to criticize you.
I was merely pointing out an alternative possibility. Many players need time to mature mentally first before excelling in the NFL.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Your phrase
“Did you ever think . . . sounded like a veiled criticism to me.” If I am wrong and that wasn’t your intention I apologize.
For what it’s worth I do not try to start arguments here, I just like to expand the “debate” so to speak.
I think that the quarter century of McCaskey control (and their choices of GM’s/HC’s) have been average, at best.
And 25 years is a long time. Average might be good enough in place like Cincinnati and Phoenix and so on, but to me it’s unacceptable, for that length of time, in Chicago.
Look at the Cubs even. Nobody can acuse them of being cheap and they also brought in a top-flight manager in Lou.
The results notwithstanding (excellent regular season – horrendous post season) but nobody can accuse them of not giving their all.
I’d really like to see that kind of management by the Bears. I think the city and it’s fan base deserves nothing less.
Me too.
All I meant was that there are other factors involved when a player doesn’t play up to their potential.
I wish the Bears would try to upgrade their WRs besides in the draft. JA surely doesn’t have a good track record drafting them. How can a team say it’s “close” when their wideouts are a joke (besides Hester)?
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
RE: Me too
While acknowledging tomas21’s revealing post, I was the only person to SIMPLY say that, there is more to the equation than just listing the players.
I personally feel that other factors (such a teams/systems/coaching) are big factors also.
Case in piont: Thomas Jones. Bad team team/system/coaching in Phoenix, good team/system/coaching in Chicago.
I’ll give you another one (in the future): Vernon Davis (the guy Mike Singletary kicked out of the game last year).
Drafted witht the sixth pick, he’s public enemy Number 1 in 49er land. Most fans kinda hate the guy. He’ll have a breakout season this year. Why? cause of Singletary. Vernon’s main problem since he got to SF is that he hasn’t been coached correctly.
Vernon's main problem
was having Mike Martz as his OC. Tight ends just don’t get play in Martz systems. Now that Martz is gone, VC has an opportunity to step up. It’s not that he wasn’t being coached right… he just wasn’t being used.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
RE: Vernon's main problem
Not really. He’s been with the 49ers 3 years, only one of which was with Martz.
His main problems are two-fold:
1. Pass receiving (while Singletary has said that Vrnon is the best blocking tight end he has ever seen, he’s inconsistent in the passing game).
2. More importantly, his attitude. THAT"S why Singletary threw him out of Singletary’s first game as interim HC. After that game Singletary talked about not allowing stupid, selfish penalties (like Vernon’s personl foul in that game – ala Tillman’s’ dumb personal foul call against TB last year).
Vernon, like many “great young” talents in the league, after getting their ass kissed most of their lives, desperately need an authority figure to keep them in their place.
Mike Singletary IS that authority figure for Vernon.
Your critique of davis is almost completely incorrect (once you get beyond the TE in a Martz system. That you are correct about. Unfortunately it doesn’t address Davis’ two years without Martz or his “attitude” problem (as addressed by Coach Singletary).
His 1st 2 seasons,
Davis battled injuries. His 3rd season, under Martz, he didn’t get the ball due to the system.
You may say that his performance in the 1st 2 years was due to attitude, but you also have to account for the injuries.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Look
Ask any Niners fan. They point ot his “attitude” first and foremost.
It’s that attitude that caused MS to do something that I personally have NEVER seen in my lifetime . . . and that’s throw a player off the field in the middle of the game.
You’re a smart guy. Really. You know, as well as anybody, that a person’s attitude preceeds them. If someone has a good attitude in life, they are more likely to do the right things. Convereslly, if someone has kind of a F**KED up attitude, the exact opposite is likely to occur.
Exhibit “B”: Cedric Benson. F**KED up attitude.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I’m just adding another piece to the Vernon Davis situation. While it is easy to focus on only one aspect of his career, it ’s illogical to disregard another.
Whatever his attitude, if he is healthy, and isn’t a member of a Martz system, he will have a better chance of being successful than his first 3 seasons.
Plus, the Niners’ offense has been pathetic. Everyone’s offensive numbers stunk, regardless of their attitudes.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Of course you're disagreeing with me:
You miss the KEY ingredient. You guys think that coaching doesn’t matter. NOTHING, GeauxBaers, can be further from the truth. Nothing!
Some guys don’t need to be coached. Others, Vince Lomardi himself could comeback and it wouldn’t help them.
That said, however, many, many players on any team need to be “coached up.”
The problem with VD is that his previous HC (Mike Nolan) allowed him to act like a jackass.
MS DIDN’T! Singletary had been a 49er assistant coach since VD was drafted there. He’d seen all the BS from Davis from a distance as a defensive coach.
It’s no surprise that Singletary wasted NO TIME in letting Davis know that, from this point forward, his BS (like selfish, stupid, unnecessry personal foull penalities) would NO LONGER be tolerated.
You guys almost COMPLETELY dismiss the difference between a quality coach in the NFL and others that aren’t as good (especially when it comes to player motivation).
Read my March 8th 12:05 AM post on the “Kevin Jones Comes Back” subject to see the effect a GREAT coach has on his players.
Mike Singletary (no surprise) is cut from that same cloth. Lovie, not so much.
Ummm...
Sorry dude, but I actually am not disagreeing with you at all.
Of course you’re disagreeing with me:
You miss the KEY ingredient. You guys think that coaching doesn’t matter
You guys almost COMPLETELY dismiss the difference between a quality coach in the NFL and others that aren’t as good (especially when it comes to player motivation).
Sorry, but I’m not sure how I ened up being thrown in with “you guys”. I never said anything whatesoever about any of that. I was just pointing something out that existed outside of your box:
I’m not disagreeing with you.
I’m just adding another piece to the Vernon Davis situation. While it is easy to focus on only one aspect of his career, it ’s illogical to disregard another
If you read that quote as me disagreeing with you, or saying anything about coaching, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
You have
consistently "mocked’ me for my views on coaching. With statements like this:
I swear to everything holy in this universe…
If anyone chooses to get into a debate about coaching styles with GeoMak, I wish the itchiest of rashes upon you…
All I know is that players LOVE playing for Rex Ryan. That’s one reason why three Ravens signed with the Jets (and why the Ravens dominate on defense).
The players LOVE MS in SF, and that’s why they are so excited about next year. And this is AFTER watching him blister VD in his first game. Any Niner player worth having was probably happy to see that kind of thing happen. Why should guys who have busted their ass on the fieeld have to suffer cause one guy makes a stupid SELFISH penalty?
ALL coaches at the NFL level know their X’s and O’s. Some, however, are much better at motivating their players than others.
That’s a HUGE edge to have in the NFL. Period.
1- My itchy rash comment wasn't meant to mock you.
It was meant to be funny. My apologies that you feel like I was mocking you.
2- I have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your comment. It made my brain hurt for you to go from “itchiest rashes upon you” in one sentence to “All I know is that players LOVE playing for Rex Ryan”.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Honestly
I really didn’t appreciate that comment.
That said, I want my players to have a coach that they respect and, on some level, FEAR, at least a little.
Watch MS in SF and Rex Ryan in NY this year. Watch the turnaround, at least in attitude on those teams. I’m not saying that they are going to the SB, just that they are going to start playing better, with essentially the same players.
I already watched that happen with the Niners under MS.
After Ditka we’ve had three DC’s who were considered nice guy HC’s.
Dave Wannstedt is a much nicer guy than Jimmy Johnson. Johnson was a great HC and Wanny a terrible one.
Jauron and Lovie are both nice guys and average HC’s. Period.
If Lovie Smith was a great HC his GM wouldn’t be talking about how he needs to do a better job. He wouldn’t have to bring in Marinelli to get the most out of his underachieving D-Line or have top start calling the Defensive signals.
When the HC is perceived as being a “nice guy – players coach” more often than not the inmates start running the asylum.
So, just so I am clear on this...
Who are you arguing with about the coaching?
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Look:
I have strong beliefs about coaching at the NFL. The HC IS the key position in the organization.
Georia Frontiere used to own the Rams. She was kind of a goofball. Back in LA, she used to wave “spiritual crystals” in front of the players.
She won a SB in 1999 because she hired Dick Vermeil (a dictator who whipped their asses into shape) who then hired Mike Martz and so on.
A team can win with a nut job as an owner, or even an incompetent GM, IF, and I’ll repeat IF, they (Owner and GM) hire a GREAT HC. Period.
In Chicago we have mediocre ownership, a mediocre GM and a mediocre HC.
None of them are terrible (like Oakland and Detroit, for example). None of them are excellent (like NE and Pittsburgh, for example).
All three are average and mediocre at their jobs, IMO!
I would like to see an improvement by all three. Barring that, if I could only choose one, I’d take an improvement at the HC’ing position.
With the cap, all owners have to spend X amount and nobody can spend their brains out.
All GM’s have hits and misses. Period.
That to me, leaves the HC. Simply stated some are better than others in Leading their Men into victory.
Mike Ditka (and I’m not a huge Ditka fan – I’m much more of a Buddy Ryan fan) is the classic example of this. He, through force of his considerable will, MADE those players play better than they had before under a HC like Neil Armstrong (who had NO discipline on the team)..
So, just so I am clear on this…
Who are you arguing with about the coaching?
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
GeauxBears
I’m not arguing with anybody about coaching. Others seem to do that with me.
The general concensus I have "gleamed’ from this blog, over the past month or so, is criticism of JA and little if any regarding Lovie.
That may be incorrect but that’s my “unscientific” conclusion.
Personally, I hold the success or failure of a team much more in the hands of the HC than I guess others do.
Two men became interim HC’s in the NFC West last year (Haslett in St. Louis and Singletary in SF).
The Rams won their first two under Haslett and then quickly faded.
The 49ers were 5-4 under MS , winning four out of their last five.
Singletary was the first “West Coast” team to win on the East Coast that year (Tom Cable of the Raiders won in TB on the last game of the season). His first loss (in his first game) was during a week in which the HC was fired and MS was promoted EARLY in the week. Singletary didn’t even have a full week to prepare his team.
Included in his losses were two, down to the wire losses to playoff teams Arizona and Miami. In both games the 49ers held the ball on the last play of the game with a chance to win.
Mike Singletary has that rare ability to inspire, motivate and lead his team BEYOND where they were before.
I don’t see that in Lovie Smith. In the National Parity League, that quality is often the difference between success and failure.
Biggest man-crush ever.
Let’s see Singletary consistently win some games first before declaring him a great coach.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
I can't say
I’d call our ownership even mediocre at this point.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
Nobody
Has EVER debated me on coaching styles. Look, whether you like it or not, even Jerry Angelo basically said that’s Lovie and his staff have to do a better job of coaching. Period.
And I agree.
Almost all fans of almost all teams, complain about the talent on their team. In SF most of them are hypercritical. One guy said that, in his opinion, only three 49ers (Patrick Willis, Frank Gore and Nate Clements) could start for any other NFL team. THREE!
They’re not too high on their players. And yet, interim HC MIke Singletary won 4 out of his last 5 with that team (a team that got it’s HC fired mid-season).
Lovie Smith is a good HC. There are bad, good and excellent HC’s in the NFL. He falls into the good category, IMO.
If you and everyone else is satisfied with having a good HC for the Chicago Bears, then fine.
I’M NOT! I want an above average, excellent HC. Someone that can sqeeze out a few extra wins (instead of blowing a few extra losses – see ATL. TB and Carolina in 2008).
That’s the difference between watching the playoffs and being IN the playoffs.
ATL
Absolutely. Sqibb kick? You’re kidding me right? That almost guarantees them the ball with great field position.
Tell Gould to kick the S**T out of the ball, put starters on the coverage team if you have to, and tell those guys not to let them past the 20.
From the 20 it would be virtually impossible for Atlanta to win.
They win that game they make the playoffs. As it is, it was a near historic collapse.
The other two games? It’s not all on Lovie but he’s the head man. When teams lose games they should have won, the criticism goes back to the man in charge, even though there’s enough blame to go around.
lmao
When teams lose games they should have won, the criticism goes back to the man in charge, even though there’s enough blame to go around.
Well, good. So since Lovie won 9 games and lost 7, that means he’s a good coach. Thanks for playing.
I'M A MAN! I'M 22!
I have ALWAYS said:
he’s a good coach and that the Bears are a good team. However, the teams that usually appear in the playoffs and occasionally hoist the Lombardi trophy, have great HC’s.
That’s my whole point. From the top on down, the Bears are a good team. Not bad enough that the fans start rioting in the streets and not good enough to win it all.
I shouldn’t have to say this a thousand times.
I disagree with the squib kick
that kick wasn’t a bad call, it was bad execution. it’s not like that play has never been called in a situation like that. those three loses go on the players solely. not the coach.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither did the kicker.
Gould executed one of the worst squib kicks in recent memory. It’s really not that difficult to perform. It’s better to miss long, than to miss short….really short.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Touche propheteer...
Either that squib kick caused a degree of PTSD in my brain that I forgot how it went down, or I have purposely blocked out all the details.
Either way, the coach didn’t kick the damn ball.
Ryan Perilloux in 2010!!
Dude
Please. No matter HOW well it’s executed, the opposing team is virtually assured of getting the ball at LEAST at the 30. With a couple of steps they are usually closer to the 40.
They needed to have ATL start closer to the 20 than the 40. The squibb kick almost eliminated the 20 and made the 40 a pretty realistic option.
This is pretty much common sense.
30 or 35 would've ended the game
I believe they got the ball at their own 45 or 46 yard line after the return. There’s no way Ryan could have made 35-40 yard throw with 11 seconds to go.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
OF COURSE CHIFAN!!!
TB: Obviously Lovie hasn’t “coached” his players good enough. If he had, Peanut wouldn’t have gotten flagged for the personal foul.
CAR: Obvioulsy Lovie hasn’t “coached” his players good enough. If he had, Greg Olsen wouldn’t have fumbled twice in the game.
ATL: Obviously….. well the squib kick was a good call IMO. The prevent we were in wasn’t so the blame can go to Lovie on that one.
"URLACHER IS GOD"
Wasn't prevent D
They were in their base cover-2 D. There was no way to get 5 defensive backs out there with the all injuries they had.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
Yeah
You’re right. No sense in kicking deep and tackling ATL near the 20. That would have been a stupid call (LOL).
how sure are you that
kicking it deep wouldn’t had resulted in a big return(which is why the squib was called in the first place)? off the top of my head, i remember the Bears kicking it deep against AP in 2007 which cost us the game against the vikings. i also remember everyone asking why didn’t they squib it.
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I could have lived with that.
Seriously. I wouldn’t have liked it (of course) but there’s NO WAY, IF THAT HAPPENED, THAT I WOULD HAVE SAID . . . we should have squibbed it.
No way.
That’s my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
Yeah
Considering they were averaging 37 yds/return that puts em near the 20 right?
"URLACHER IS GOD"
If your kick coverage
Is averaging 37 yards a return you MIGHT want to actually get up off your ass and do something about it. Really.
Or is that set in stone? We’re going to give up 37 yards a return this year and there’s nothing that can be done about it?
Please. That’s laughable.
What about win/loss record
Isn’t the teams record a factor? Even Matt Millen himself admitted that he was a complete failure has a GM. So what if a drafts picks makes an impact on a losing team, a team that continues to lose year after year. Now Smith is a different story, however he inherited an established team with a winning record. The components were in place for the draft to fill in and add to the continuing success.
As Bill Parcells says: “You are what your record says you are.”
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
I'm just going to throw this out there for conversation sake....
The Baltimore Ravens top picks (1st round picks… or 1st overall pick in the draft) since their inception:
2008 1 1 18 18 Joe Flacco QB Delaware = ROY candidate
2007 1 1 29 29 Ben Grubbs G Auburn
2006 1 1 12 12 Haloti Ngata DT Oregon
2005 1 1 22 22 Mark Clayton WR Oklahoma
2004 1 2 19 51 Dwan Edwards DT Oregon State
2003 1 1 10 10 Terrell Suggs DE Arizona State = 3 pro Bowls & NFL DROY
2003 2 1 19 19 Kyle Boller QB California
2002 1 1 24 24 Ed Reed DB Miami (FL) = 5 Pro Bowls & NFL Defensive Player of the Year
2001 1 1 31 31 Todd Heap TE Arizona State = 2 Pro Bowls
2000 1 1 5 5 Jamal Lewis RB Tennessee = 1 Pro Bowl, Offensive Player of the Year, 2,000+ yard rusher, and single game rushing record (295 yards)
2000 2 1 10 10 Travis Taylor WR Florida
1999 1 1 10 10 Chris McAlister DB Arizona = 3 pro Bowls
1998 1 1 10 10 Duane Starks DB Miami (FL) = Super Bowl starter
1997 1 1 4 4 Peter Boulware DE Florida State = 4 Pro Bowls, and DROY
1997 2 2 4 34 Jamie Sharper LB Virginia = Super Bowl starter
1996 1 1 4 4 Jonathan Ogden T UCLA = 11 Pro Bowls
1996 2 1 26 26 Ray Lewis LB Miami (FL) = 10 Pro-Bowls, 2X Defensive Player of the year, and Super Bowl MVP
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Yes. When the clueless McCaskeys had to hire a friggin executive search firm to find a GM...
they should’ve skipped the search and pried away Ozzie Newsome.
But, every other owner in the league could’ve told them to hire Newsome, and they still would’ve paid $350,000 to have an executive search firm give them the same list of candidates that you or I could’ve read in the Sun-Times for 35 cents. Unfortunately, that list of candidates included the very affordable Jerry Angelo. And, after spending the $350,000 or so on the useless executive search firm to “find” Angelo, Jerry Angelo came at the “right price.”
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that.
We know it's the most valuable position on the football team. We've gone through so many scenarios at that position we can write a book, moreso on what not do."
-- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
.
Perception
During the SB I actually read articles about what a great job the GM of the Cardinals has done. I laughed and I laughed and I laughed.
He’s actually pretty bad.
Terrell Suggs, In 2003 the Cards had the 10th pick. ASU stud Suggs was projected to fall to Arizona. He was on record as saying that he’s love to play at home for the Cardinals. Easy right? Not with Graves. He traded down with Baltimore. The Ravens took Suggs and Arizona got two players (Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace) both of whom are no longer with the team and didn’t do much while here.
When Denny Green was HC of the Cards (2004,5 and 6) he took over and drafted the core of the SB team (Karlos Dansby, Larry Fitzgerald, Darnell Dockett, Antonio Smith etc).
Graves passed on Adrian Peterson in 2007 to REACH and select underachieving OT Levi Brown.
Graves has made some good picks, but Christ, they have drated in the top ten FOREVER. You should hit a few homeruns there, no matter how stupid you are.
Perception. Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper.
Early returns on the 2 most recent drafts
arent very promising for Angelo. Olsen was good in round1, but Williams barely played and may have serious back issues. Bazuin never played, Forte looks to be good from Round2. In round3 Okwo was a Fail, Harrison- Ill be nice and say he might pass as a starter. Bennett, Im gonna take the low road and say he fails. 4thround, I dont remember whoelse;- I think Steltz is looking like a fail. So I think 50% or less is pretty poor for the first 4 rounds with a lot of guys hardly or never playing at all.
Provocative thoughts
But ultimately wrongheaded. Colombo is hard to lable a Failure; yeah, he washed out with us because of injury, but he’s been a starting right tackle for years in Dallas and a pretty solid player. Had he remained healthy with us, that pick (at the end of the 1st round) would have been quite solid.
Grossman is not a failure. Just look at the man’s win/loss record and you’ll see why. I’ve long since learned that its impossible to have a rational conversation about Grossman with any Bears fan, but here’s my try: name all the Bears Quarterbacks in the last twenty-five years who were better than Grossman? I can think of two, and they’re both flawed: McMahon was a great leader, but inaccurate and also too often injured; and Kramer was brilliant for a brief period, but couldnt sustain it. Thats it. Maybe Jim Miller, but he wasnt good enough for long enough. Grossman could make throws that the Mike Tomczacks, Rick Mirers, Henry Burrises, Chad Hutchinsons, Steve Stenstroms, Moses Morenos, PT Willises, Kordell Stewarts, Shane Matthewses and Craig Krenzels of the world could never dream of. Its not just a fluke that we made the Super Bowl under him; he was a part of what got us there.
Also the guy who posted about the Ravens is spot on — Ozzie Newsome is the gold standard for astute drafting.
+1
couldn’t had said it any better meself
OH! STEWIE!! GET OUT THE WAY BOY! GET OUT THE WAY!
-Stacey King
by ifuwannacrownem on Mar 9, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
The Bears having a long
history of bad QBs is meaningless in evaluating Grossman. What does Rick Mirer have to do with whether Grossman is good or not? Grossman has a career passer rating of 70. In the only year he was a full time starter, he had 23 TDs, 20 INTs and 7 fumbles. That is not good, and that does not mean he “led them to the super bowl”. If anything the defense led him to the super bowl.
The Bears had a good win/loss record in 2006 because they had a fantastic defense. It was not because of him. Early in the season he was helping them win games, but in the last 2/3 of games they won more in spite of him than because of him.
I am not a Rex Grossman basher. I think he got unfairly vicitmized by Bears fans. But he was not worthy of a first round pick. If you could go back to the 2003 draft and pick again, would you take Rex with your first pick? I doubt it. And you wouldn’t take him over Tillman with your second pick, nor over Briggs with your third pick. So I can’t see how you could argue with it being a failed pick.
So while Rex Grossman was not an abject disaster, and the Bears have had a lot of worse WBs, and the team did well in spite of him (though they may have lost the Super Bowl because of his and Danieal Mannings play), he was not worthy of a first round pick.
I will point again to his career passer rating of 70, and the fact that he has yet to find even a backup spot so far. When teams are taking JT Osullivan and Dan Orlavsky over him, and he was a first round pick, he probably wasn’t a good pick.
Ozzie Newsome is a very good drafter. He has found some real gems, particularly on D. But look at his drafts from 2002-2006, and I think you might find that Smith did an even better job over that span.
http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=BAL&lg=NFL
As far as Colombo goes, as I said in my post, if a player failed because of injury, they were still a failed pick. Maybe it isn’t fair to the GM, but it’s hard to say Colombo was a good pick for Angelo. If we start giving GMs a pass for players that were injured, it’s going to be tough to grade them. He was here for 4 seasons and we got nothing from him.
DEJESUS!!!
While
I disagree with you on McMahon’s accuracy (you don’t set some 70 passing records at BYU by being inaccurate). I do, however, agree with pretty much the rest of your post.
Two players ignited the Bears to the SB in 2006: Grossman and Hester.
Grossman was the offensive player of the month in September. He launched the Bears out of the gate, being the main reason for their 4-0 start. He played well in game 5 and of course, game 6 (against the Cardinals) he was horrendous. From that point on he was inconsisitent. That said, he played well in the playoffs and in the first half of the SB.
Hester singelhandly won two games (Rams & Broncos) and was huge in many others (like that Cardinal game).
The way Rex was treated by many Bear fans was kind of idiotic, to say the least.
Nice job
Kudos for putting some perspective on draft history. We seldom put…anything…in perspective when complaning about missed draft picks, unsigned free agents or anything else that will immediately catapault us to the Superbowl. (sic)
That said, I would challenge four things. Two concepts and two players.
1. Evaluating future injury – Good when evaluating draft results – poor when evaluating draft skills. Assuming you avoid injury cases (Chris Williams?) how do you predict it? Answer is – you don’t.
2. Case in point, Marc Columbo deserves credit for a 3 year fight through a massive injury and becoming a fixture on the Dallas line. Its hard to argue that Angelo drafted a kid who can play, obviously has a huge work ethic and tons of heart. Without all three, Marc Columbo had a career selling auto insurance.
3. Terrance Metcalf – The guy is a perennial benchwarmer. He’s been given every opportunity to permanently crack the starting lineup – including the 2007 offensive line fiasco. To date, his only strength is knowledge of the Bears offense. In short, he’s just good enough not to train somebody else.
4. Number of Picks…notice the discrepancy in numbers of picks. Smith and Angelo parlay picks and trades like investments…which they are. Millen pissed em away like casino chips. Total count:
Smith 22
Angelo 22
Millen 18
I LOVE YOU GUYS.
Really. No matter how much I annoy some of you guys and no matter how much some of you annoy me. Really!
I’ve got some GOOD news for you guys and some BAD news:
The GOOD news: Next Tuesday I am having shoulder surgery and my arm will be in a sling for three weeks.
The BAD news: I’m having my left arm operated on and I’m RIGHT-HANDED!!!!!!!
That means that, for a few weeks, I’ll have nothing to do but pop some pain pills and use my RIGHT hand to keep in touch with my good buddies at WCG!
Oh God, that could get REALLY ugly. If you guys think I’m a jackass now, wait’ll I get some pain pills to go along with my “whiskey and water.”
Good luck w/ the surgery dude
And pain pills + whiskey= death or one hell of a night ha
"URLACHER IS GOD"
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