The Greatness of Jim McMahon
I never saw Sid Luckman, the man commonly considered to be the greatest QB in Chicago Bear history, play football (I’m old . . . but not that old).
And now, as we go out with the old (Rex & Kyle) and in with the new (Jay Christopher Cutler) I feel that this is a perfect to time to stop and pay tribute to the ‘man-in-the-middle.’ One Jim McMahon.
And nothing makes me angrier as when people (ESPECIALLY Bear fans) either ignore the greatness of Jim McMahon or speak of him in less than reverential tones. I almost expect and can almost deal with that from 49er fans, or Packer fans, or anybody else‘s fans, but Bear fans? That really elevates my blood pressure. Makes my blood boil.
With that in mind, it’s long past time for GeoMak to set the record straight for any and all non-believers. Jim McMahon was a GREAT Quarterback! Period. End of story. This, my friends, is non negotiable.
Now, if you define a great QB as one who got under center and lasted 10 + years (like say, a Dan Marino or Peyton Manning) then Jim doesn’t fit that bill. If that’s your criteria, then you have my permission to disagree with me.
However, here’s how I define greatness at the QB position:
Leadership:
Jim was a born leader. As a sophomore at BYU, Jim McMahon replaced starter Marc Wilson who had gotten injured.
As teammate Clay Brown recalled: "Jim came in with so much confidence, it was like he had been there for ten years."
Bill Ring: "I have a lot of respect for Marc Wilson and he was a terrific QB, but competitiveness was what really separated Jim from Marc."
Jim’s leadership skills were never more evident than in the 1980 Holiday Bowl, where BYU overcame a 20 point deficit against SMU with only four minutes remaining to win the game. Key play in that game? In the fourth quarter, BYU faced a 4th and two near midfield. HC LaVell Edwards sent in the punting unit and McMahon refused to come out of the game. Refused to come out!
McMahon sent the punter off the field. Edwards called a timeout. Jim told his offense to stay on the field and he then went to the sideline where he started yelling at Edwards: "What? Are you giving up? That’s BullS---!"
Edwards: "The guy was upset to no end, so I said ‘OK, go back in and we’ll go for it.’"
BYU converted the fourth down and eventually won the game on a Hail Mary pass on the games final play.
(BYU scored 21 points in the final 2 ½ minutes of that game).
Going over to yell at your HC for attempting to throw in the towel, to wave the white flag, to just give up? That’s leadership, and that’s why his teammates at BYU and in Chicago loved him. With Jim under center, his guys always felt like they were in the game. They won that game because of QB Jim McMahon and in spite of HC LaVell Edwards.
Geo reminds you...
Steve Young played behind Jim at BYU (the school named after Steve’s great, great, great grandfather, Brigham Young). Steve Young: "I learned how to play quarterback by watching Jim McMahon."
Passing Skills:
Jim is, statistically, the greatest passer in college football history. McMahon broke or tied 56 NCAA Division 1-A records. His arrival in Chicago in 1982 (as the 5th pick in the first round) signaled an end to the motley QB’ing crew of Bob Avellini. Mike Phipps and Vince Evans. The Bears now had a real, genuine, passer. And not just a ‘hander-offer.’
The incomparable Walter Payton (and to a lesser degree) Buddy Ryan’s defense were being wasted in the Windy City because the Bears had no NFL caliber QB. Thus, they were basically a defensive team with a ‘four play’ playbook:
1. Walter left.
2. Walter right.
3. Walter up-the-middle.
4. Cross your fingers and hope against hope that the Bears can complete a pass on third and a mile.
Walter was getting killed (Cowboy RB Preston Pearson: "Walter Payton, on every play, was taking a pounding. Every play") and the Bears had almost no hope of ever winning it all.
First, like a Bull (or a Bear) in a china shop, in blew Iron Mike in 1982.
And then in walked Jim McMahon, holding a can of beer in his hand for his introductory press conference at Halas Hall.
And (thankfully) the Chicago Bears would never the same.
Geo reminds you...
The year before McMahon was drafted (1981) the Bears averaged 14.5 points-per-game. In 1985, for example, the Bears led the NFC in scoring, averaging 26 points-per-game. This total doesn’t include any defensive TD’s or safeties. Just the offense. That’s a difference of two TD’s per game and that’s a HUGE difference in the NFL.
Also, in the third game in 1985 in Minnesota, Mad Mac came off the bench and threw three TD’s in FIVE minutes to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I don’t know if that is an NFL record, but I’m guessing not too many NFL QB’s have ever thrown three TD’s in five minutes.
Intelligence:
Along with his leadership and passing skills, one of Jim’s greatest abilities was in reading defenses. Few if any NFL QB’s have read defenses as well as Jim McMahon. He had an almost ‘Larry Bird, Wayne Gretzky’ like quality to see the entire ‘field’ ahead of mere mortals.
Jim watched little film (he pretty much only had to see things once and he got it . . . and besides, he didn’t like the overhead view of the coaches tape). This caused some friction between him and Ditka because Iron Mike was used to guys like Roger Staubach, who watched a lot of film in Dallas. Jim didn’t because he didn’t need to.
My favorite story regarding this:
During a nondescript regular season game at Soldier Field (I’m not sure about the year/opponent) McMahon called an audible at the LOS and threw a TD pass to TE Emery Moorhead to beat the oncoming blitz. In the Chicago Tribune the next day, Moorehead expressed great surprise at McMahon’s ability to read the blitz and audible to a play that turned into a TD pass to him.
Moorehead explained that usually, a quarterback SEES the DB creeping up towards the LOS and THEN calls the audible. McMahon called the audible BEFORE the DB ever made a step towards the LOS. Moorehead was bewildered as to how Jim McMahon knew the DB would blitz before the DB ever signaled his intentions by moving closer to the LOS.
Jim’s answer: "I could see it in his eyes." That’s right, McMahon could tell the DB was going to blitz just by reading his eyes. That’s pretty impressive. Jim McMahon had an acute intuition for the game of football that’s missing from many who play the position.
Jim McMahon: Great team leader, great passer and extremely intelligent. Other than that, I guess, he really wasn’t much as an NFL quarterback.
Oh, and his reputation for getting injured? That’s fair. But as Ditka said: "Those guys (the O-Lineman) would have done anything to protect Jim McMahon. He didn’t play the game like a QB. He didn’t have any respect for his body. He played the game with reckless abandon."
SMU HC Ron Meyer (who later coached the Colts and Patriots) had this to say about Jim’s reckless, no regard for his body, style of play: "I don’t think he ever took a safe slide like you see the quarterbacks today. Is that smart? Ahh, probably not. But does that win? You bet. And that’s Jim McMahon."
I personally think that Walter Payton was the greatest ‘all-around’ player to ever play the game. And there isn’t a bigger Buddy Ryan fan than myself. But the Bears, with Walter (1975) and Buddy (1978), didn’t win squat. And they weren’t going to. They needed a real QB. And they finally got a real one in 1982 with the arrival of Mad Mac.
He was the spiritual leader of that offense. Whether it was head-butting his lineman after a TD or ignoring the play sent in by Ditka ( "F--- that" he would often say in the huddle . . . We’re running this play") Jim was a key component in leading the Bears to the greatest single season in NFL history.
Mike Ditka: "I never did try to control him because Jim McMahon wouldn’t have paid one bit of attention to what I said. If I would have said ‘Don’t run’ he would have ran. I said ‘Slide’ he would have jumped over people. It didn’t matter. There’s no point getting into that."
Jim’s teammates fed off his rebellious energy. It helped to bond them as a unit. Which led them to say this:
"We listened to the coaches from Monday to Saturday. Sunday was OUR day."
Jim McMahon ran the offense. Mike Singletary ran the defense. And for one brief moment in time, the 1985 Bears were the greatest team in the history of the NFL. And nobody can take that away from us. NOBODY!
Oh, and another thing Mike Ditka is on record as saying: "I don’t care how great Walter Payton was. I don’t care how great our defense was. We don’t win the Super Bowl without McMahon. Period."
Now, are any of you ‘non-believers’ man enough to take exception with ’Da Coach’ regarding the previous paragraph? I didn’t think so.
I mean, you can talk smack to the GeoMak. You can attack the GeoMak.
But argue with Mike Ditka? I don’t think so.
Class dismissed!
* (Most quotations from ESPN's 'SportsCentury - Jim McMahon' which first aired on January 24th, 2001).
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158 comments
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Comments
Jimmy Mac..
Was my first real experience at watching the QB position. I was only 7 when we won in 85 but i remember watching him. Talk about confidence, even if he made a mistake he didn’t care cause he was coming right back to make a big play.
by Chitownproduct on May 22, 2009 2:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree he was an excellent QB
I don’t, necessarily agree with “great” passing skills. Despite his records in college, McMahon had an average arm at best. That’s not to denegrate his ability as a QB. I have always been of the opinion that too many “passers” have been described as great QB’s, when there is so much more to the position (I really hope that’s not the case with our new QB). It’s too bad that his injuries limited him after the ’85 season. I really believe that is the only thing that kept the Bears from returning to the Super Bowl.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 7:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For the record BearsFan611
He’s got an average arm like a Joe Montana. He’s doesn’t have a laser arm like a Cutler/Elway.
He doesn’t have a weak arm like a Chad Pennington.
To me, the essence of QB play is getting the ball in the hands of your receivers (hopefully in stride).
The ability to read defenses quickly plays a huge part in that process.
Kurt warner doesn’t have a stronger arm than Matt Leinart. I would describe both of those guys as ‘average’ when it comes to arm strength.
Last year, in the middle of the season., some of the Cardinals were talking about the difference between Warner & Leinart, and they basically said that Kurt is quicker and better at reading the defense and knowing just where to go with the ball. that’s basically what separated those two in their eyes.
With that in mind, I was watching an NFL Replay game the other day. Brian Griese just missed completing a pass and the analyst said that if Griese had thrown the ball a split-second earlier he had his guy wide open.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sound pissed, but didn't I basically make the same point in my original post?
McMahon himself was the one who described his passes as wounded ducks and, again, I think he was an excellent QB and that pure “passers” are overrated.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i believe the term was...
end-over-end egg beaters…
by windycity72 on May 22, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I wasn't pissed.
Sometimes Jim threw spirals. Sometimes not.
As long as it got where it was supposed to go, that’s all that matters.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hot Stuff!!!
What a great post GeoMak! The “Punky QB” was the man! At least a three-peat if he stays healthy.
by rocko1 on May 22, 2009 8:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
GeoMak, Great job, Great read.
Love Jim McMahon and always will. BearsFan611, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of McMahon’s arm. IMO his arm strength wasn’t elite, but it was above average. Bottom line, had he not been injured so often. I think he would have been HOF caliber.
I have mad love for Buddy as well and was fortunate enough to meet him about ten years ago. He lived in Harrodsburg, KY (he still may) and was a regular at the Olive Garden in Lexington, that my then girlfriend was employed with. I asked her to let me know the next time Buddy and his wife was in. Very nice, very cordial, and stated on the autograph “GOOD RUSH”.
by rdent4hof on May 22, 2009 8:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We could use some of Buddy's attitude on this team
not to mention his knowledge of how to attack with his defense.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I HOPE Marinelli will provide that...
… and I think he will.
by rdent4hof on May 22, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
It’s interesting. Look at the four teams in last years Championship games.
1. Pittsburgh – Pressure defense.
2. Baltimore – Rex Ryan – Nuff said.
3. Philadelphia – Pressure defense.
4. Even the Cardinals, while not in a class with those other teams, used to mix it up a lot on defense.
I’m sorry. To me, I can’t stand the following two words: COVER TWO.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great story about Buddy rdent4hof
He’s my ATF NFL coach. Needing a change-of-pace, I left Chicago in 1994 and followed Buddy out to Phoenix when he was named HC of the Cardinals.
Unfortunately, Buddy only lasted two years here. And I’ve been stuck in this desert ever since.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometime down the road...
… ONLY IF NEEDED!!! I must admit, I would not be disappointed to see a Ryan or a Singletary crack the Chicago coaching staff. “I know you must be shocked”
by rdent4hof on May 22, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would too, but won't happen while McCaskey's are in charge
They have seemed to go out of their way to distance themselves from that ‘85 group. I’ve said this before, organizations take on the personality of the person in charge. When George Halas was alive, you had intense, fiery people running the team from Halas, to Ditka, to Ryan and the team was the same way. When Michael McCaskey took over, we went to the more cerebral, mellow, BORING, management from Michael, to Ted Phillips, to Angelo, Jauron, Lovie, etc. and the teams over the last decade have matched their personalities. The Bears should be a team that intimidates, fights, and doesn’t back down from anyone (kind of like the descriptions of Jimmy Mac in this post), but instead get pushed around more often than not and are not good against teams that will try to out physical you. Once the McCaskeys sell, which I think will happen after Virginia is no longer around, I would love to see a return to the old mentality and people like those you have mentioned wouid be a great start.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Al Davis or Bud Adams
would be interested in buying the team.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
by Dane Noble on May 22, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm aside
That’s just horrible…
I don’t even want to imagine that scenario…
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on May 22, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said BearFan611
We lost our soul after Papa Bear passed on.
They went out of the way to change the culture of the team. STUPID!
WTF is it with Yale? I’ve come to HATE that school! They gave us one guy (MIke McCaskey) who thought he could run an NFL team. He COULDN’T!
They gave us another guy (XXXXXXXXX) who thought he could run the country. He too, COULDN’T!
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Great comparison! Yale obviously has an elite propaganda course.
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait a minute...
gary fencik anyone? ahhh, the days of not worrying about the FS position… i actually live in new haven now, and believe me, it’s extremely tough to deal with the majority of the “yalies” (what the local’s call ‘em). the athletes normally aren’t that bad, and the football team has had tremendous success lately, but you wanna talk sense of entitlement? at it’s truest form baby!!!
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of yale...
they had this RB named mike mcleod that was sooooooooooooo fun to watch the past couple of years. i honestly think that yale’s coaching staff single-handedly railroaded this kid’s senoir year of ball, and subsequently, his hopes of an NFL career!!! he reminded me of garrett wolfe(maybe a step slower). the yale bowl is a great venue for college ball, and the tail-gating(well, if you call massive tents, catering, servers, and lots of wine) is so over the top it’s great!!! nothing like catching “THE GAME” at the end of the season…
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yale a bastion of NFL talent.
And Garrett Wolfe is a peripheral nfl player. minus a step and he’s a men’ room attendant.
by tempchad on May 23, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ouch!!!
good thing i’m not his agent…
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how far are you away from scottsdale???
that’s like a suburb of chicago.
by windycity72 on May 22, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in a town called Laveen
which borders Phoenix and it’s about 40 minutes from Scottsdale.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it seems like everybody in scottsdale...
is from illinois!!! not kidding either!!! but the joshua trees national park??? to die for!!!
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joshua Trees, went in 02' Beautiful!!
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow!!!
i didn’t realize that it was that long ago since i’d been back…
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does it have to be so hard to find a good ol' Adidas neckband these days?
by PolishSausage.Ditka.Bears. on May 22, 2009 9:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jimmy Mac was the man…
I used to be a designer for a newspaper and my buddy was a sports writer, we had a little wager on a pre-season game, and I (well, the Bears) won… So he was forced to write and print this column. Of course, he added his spin on it, but enjoy none the less.
- Smudgers
I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!
by smudgers on May 22, 2009 9:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. At no time was I worried about the Dolphins winning that game or having to write that Kirby was the best RB to ever play... It's was just nice to see it published and that is is still archived!!!
- Smudgers
I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey!
by smudgers on May 22, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post; I’d also add that, as a backup QB for the Packers later on in his career, he wore his Bears jersey to the White House because, he said, the ‘85 Bears’ visit had been cancelled in the wake of the Challenger disaster. Not related to his skill as a QB, but it’s another reason I always think of him as a Bear. That he did this in the face of the Packers is mere icing on the cake… :-D
His autobiography is a great read, written just before he was traded to the Eagles. If it’s allowed to do so (I don’t know where we stand on things like copyright laws) and if there’s interest, I can see if I can dig it out and post some of what he wrote about key games/plays. One of the best lines that I can still recall, some 15 years after I last read it, was his thinking that “If you have a locker room full of 45 beer-drinking fools who love each other, I think that you have the basis of a pretty good football team” – which says a lot about the spirit of the ’85 team.
by Spongie on May 22, 2009 9:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know that Spongie
about him wearing a Bears jersey to the W.H. ( I knew the trip was canceled. I think that Buddy Ryan was announced as the new HC of the Eagles the same day that Challenger went down).
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay Christopher Cutler
Notice how there’s a “J” and a “Christ” in there.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on May 22, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thus, they were basically a defensive team with a ‘four play’ playbook:
1. Walter left.
2. Walter right.
3. Walter up-the-middle.
4. Cross your fingers and hope against hope that the Bears can complete a pass on third and a mile.
Unlike last year, when we were a defensive team that could stop either the pass or the run but not both in the same game, and we had seven plays!
1. Forte left.
2. Forte right.
3. Forte up-the-middle.
4. Dump a short pass to Forte on 3rd and a mile and hope he can make the other 9+ yards on his own.
5. McKie fullback dive, baby!
6. Cross your fingers and hope against hope that Rashied Davis doesn’t drop the ball.
7. Throw deep to Hester and hope for a pass interference penalty.
by Spongie on May 22, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
hopefully we will have a passing game this year
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
by tomh115 on May 22, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that qualifies for progress
in that they expanded the playbook from 4 to 7 plays!
Funny Stuff!
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McMahon is a MAN
Perhaps if he had not had questionable work ethic and practice habits he could have stayed in shape and avoided the injuries that plagued him. His ability to read defenses gave him a job long after his physical talent had diminished.
The thing that speaks volumes to me is that as stubborn as he was, defying coaches, swearing at them, etc, no one ever thought he was a prima dona. They knew he had the confidence to get it done. They trusted him. Coaches routinely ignore guys like TO, Boldin and Sillylastname when they bitch about not getting the ball. McMahon did basically the same thing but coaches let him because they knew he would back up his word.
by GallopingGhost on May 22, 2009 10:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A TEAM man, too
There’s one part in his autobiography where he talked about having been criticised for getting injured trying to tackle an opposition player who was returning a fumble in a preseason exhibition game. The argument was, of course, that it was a meaningless game, he shouldn’t have put himself at risk.
His response was along the lines of “How would you feel if you’d been the one to fumble the ball, and your teammate just stood idly by while it was returned past him for a score?”
Maybe not sensible, but the guy had heart.
by Spongie on May 22, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point GallopingGhost
Bill Jauss said he reminded George Halas of a young punk named George Halas.
McMahon has said that he would have loved to have been a teammate of Mike Ditka’s (and I’m sure Iron Mike would have agreed).
Even when they clashed Ditka respected McMahon because he knew that Jim was all about winning.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the reasons I passionately hate the Packers
Was the game in which Charles Martin of the Packers literally picked up McMahon from the blind side and spiked him into the turf on his shoulder a full 3-5 seconds after the referee’s whistle had ended a play, thereby costing the Bears at least one more Super Bowl victory. It was a totally malicious and uncalled for assault and in today’s NFL he would probably have drawn an eight game suspension, minimum, and be subject to criminal charges for assault. Back then, I think all that happened was that he was fined some insignificant amount, considering that it ruined the Bears chances for the Super Bowl, plus McMahon was never quite the same afterward. The Packers under Forrest Gregg were one of the lowest class teams in the NFL.
by BigGeorgeTX on May 22, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I remember watching that
and absolutely screaming at the T.V., after that there were a lot if fights in that game. Charles Martin is a douche, he was ejected from the game and I think, not sure, that he had to pay a fine. That was also when I truly started hating the Packers as well.
by Fridge72 on May 22, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was ejected
My dad saw the ref from that game speak at a business conference or something and he remembers him telling the story of that game apparently the ref and Martin had an exchange some along the lines of Martin saying “What? Why was I ejected?” and the ref responded “Charles, this is Solider Field, listen to these fans, if I don’t eject you, they will kill both of us in the parking lot after the game.”
by GallopingGhost on May 22, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point being that he wasn't even suspended for a flagrant foul that ended McMahon's
season, essentially the Bears as well. Look at what happened when Tom Brady got injured in a legitimate play… They changed the rules of the game. Charles Martin committed a flat out assault which would have gotten him prison time if it had happened on the street and the league yawned. And that jerk Forrest Gregg probably condoned it because the Packers always played outside the rules while he was head coach.
by BigGeorgeTX on May 22, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NFL
didn’t protect QB’s back then as much as they do now. I’m never sure what side of that debate I fall on.
Difference IMO, what happened to Brady sucked for him, but I didn’t really think it was a dirty play.
What happened to McMahon was one of the dirtiest thing I’ve ever seen on a football field. Douche intentionally threw McMahon down on to his throwing shoulder.
by Fridge72 on May 22, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Charles Martin play was closer to assault
like you said Big George than to football.
That’s the beauty of the 85 Bears (to me). They were one of the most vicious teams in NFL history and also one of the cleanest.
They didn’t do the ‘late hit’ thing, let alone the ‘on-field’ assault thing.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the record
Martin was fined $15,000 and suspended 2 games. The worst penalty handed out for an on-the-field incident until Haynesworth’s head-stomping incident.
by GallopingGhost on May 22, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The refs
really started losing control of the game after douche Martin threw McMahon to the ground like a rag doll. The offensive line started looking for retribution on almost every play after that.
by Fridge72 on May 22, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be great if NFL network would re-broadcast that game.
I had forgotten about how the Bears went headhunting after that. That team had cojones, unlike most teams nowadays. Unfortunately the damage had been done and the Bears had to try and win with Steve Fuller. They made the playoffs, but just couldn’t make it back to the dance.
by BigGeorgeTX on May 22, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would
be pretty awesome. I suspect it would renew my hatred of the Packers.
by Fridge72 on May 22, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading all of you talk about...
… Charles Martin has really lit a fire with me. Decided to throw this good read your way.
by rdent4hof on May 22, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame he died young, but his actions that day shamed his family and team.
There have been many ferocious NFL players who were mild mannered and good people off the field, that never resorted to totally despicable behavior on the field. As I mentioned above, the blame starts and ends with head coach Forrest Gregg condoning and encouraging that sort of play. As I recall, neither Martin or Gregg ever apologized to McMahon for the transparent attempt to break his shoulder. It wasn’t a clean hit in the course of play, but a plain assault long after the play had ended.
by BigGeorgeTX on May 22, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Gregg encouraged it.
There’s no place for that kind of stuff in the league.
Even when you watch old footage of Butkus slamming guys to the ground it was always in the course of the play. Not after the play was over.
Martin’s play was the act of a coward.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst mistake of his life
from that point up to his death, he received death threats on a monthly basis, and his legacy will forever be intact as the dirtiest player in NFL history.
Think With Your Dipstick Jimmy!
by ifuwannacrownem on May 22, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I LOVE JIM MCMAHON!
MY GOD YOU SPOKE FOR ME!! NO ONE COULD’VE SAID IT BETTER THAN YOU DID! I LIVE IN THE BAY AREA OF CALIFORNIA (RAIDERS/49ers) TERRITORY. I PROUDLY SPORT MY #9 MCMAHON JERSERY AND IT NEVER FAILS I GET COMMENTS EVERYWHERE I GO ABOUT HOW GREAT JIM WAS/IS. I’LL GO TOE TO TOE WITH ANYONE WHO HAS ANY CRAP TO SAY ABOUT MY JIMMY MAC!!! LOL NOW…IF I COULD JUST GET BUTKUS AND MCMAHON ALONE FOR A FEW HOURS….THAT’S MY FANTASY FOOTBALL!!! HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!! GO BEARS!!!
by BUTKUSMCMAHON on May 22, 2009 11:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
by Dane Noble on May 22, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me say sorry...
It seems all the screamers are from Cali…
When I played I was a triple threat.... Stumble.... Fumble.....Grumble....
"Marcus Harrison iz in ur Backfield sackin ur Quataback!"
by scespy12 on May 22, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just laugh and laugh and laugh
when people talk about Joe Montana like he invented the QB position and guys like Jim and Phil Simms were dogs.
Here’s my take:
Montana won the SB with his 84 Niners.
McMahon with his 85 Bears.
Simms with his 86 Giants.
Montana was perfect in all of his SB’s.
Don Shula, no big friend of Ditka and the Bears, said at the time that McMahon played on of the greatest games ever as a QB in the SB.
Simms set a SB record by going 22 of 25 (for an 88% completion rate).
Biggest difference between Joe Montana and McMahon/Simms?
Montana played in a warm weather city for one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history.
Jim & Phil played in cold weather cities for two Neanderthal HC’s in Ditka & Parcells.
While Bill Walsh was designing schemes to spring open Jerry Rice for a short catch and a long run to the endzone, Ditka & Parcells were sitting around inventing new ways to run the football and keep their QB’s from having to pass.
I’m not taking anything away from Joe. He’s great and his four SB’s are testament to that. But to me, Jim and Phil were great enough that they would have accomplished similar things to Joe if THEY played for Bill Walsh in SF (and likewise, Joe would have been great in Chicago or NY under Ditka/Parcells).
I’m pretty sure that Jim & Phil would have done a great job dropping back 3/5 steps in SF and hitting Jerry Rice & John Taylor much like Montana did. Really.
And it’s interesting. One HOF QB leaves for KC (Joe Montana) and another HOF QB (Steve Young) takes his place (and BTW: This is the same Steve Young who said that he learned to play QB from watching Jim McMahon at BYU). And I’m pretty sure that that is the first time any team had back-to-back HOF QB’s
The common denominator there?:
The Bill Walsh, WCO system and a certain WR named Jerry Rice.
That speaks VOLUMES to me.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which leads me to my next point.
I just laugh and laugh and laugh when people say that Jerry Rice was the greatest PLAYER in NFL history.
Greatest WR? Yeah. Certainly in the modern era (along with Don Hutson from the olden days). Greatest NFL Player in the history of the league? Not as long as there was a Walter Payton.
It’s the same thing as above with Montana.
Beyond the obvious (Walter was a GREAT runner. He blocked like a Guard. He threw like QB. He caught like a WR. Team leader. Never complained. And on and on and on) is this:
For most of his career, Walter played in a one dimensional offense with an average line (I think his first Pro-Bowl Lineman was Jim Covert, who was drafted in 1983, Walter’s NINTH year in the NFL and didn’t make the Pro-Bowl until a couple of years later. I may be a little off here but if so I know that I’m close).
EVERYBODY in the stadium knew that Walter was the ENTIRE Bear offense until the arrival of McMahon & Ditka. Like Cowboy RB Preston Pearson said, “Walter was getting pounded on every play. Every play.”
As opposed to Rice, who played in space in an offense that was designed to get him the ball in the least amount of traffic.
Walter’s offense was designed to get him KILLED, for the most part.
HUGE difference to me there.
Even Rice’s legendary conditioning like his ’Hill Running" for which he was famous for. Walter Payton had been doing for a decade BEFORE Rice ever entered the NFL.
Like Montana I recognize Jerry’s greatness. He played the position as well as it could be played. But he also played in a SYSTEM that was built for his talents.
But he was a better NFL player than Walter Payton? That’s STUPID. Or a Lawrence Taylor? I don’t think so.
Put Walter on any NFL team and he would’ve been GREAT (as evidenced by the fact most of his Bear teams were pretty crappy).
I would have liked to have seen what Jerry Rice would’ve done on a team without Bill Walsh and Montana/Young.
I would like to have seen what Rice would have accomplished with a Dave Wannstedt (for example) as his HC. Or a John Shoop as his OC. Or a Cade McNown as his QB!
That’s almost too cruel to ponder for old Jerry. I can just imagine him waking up in a cold sweat after having a nightmare in which he was surrounded not by Walsh & Joe & Steve but by Wanny, Shoop and good old Cade!
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with you
but one of the first people to make the statement about Rice was Mike Ditka. I never understood his comments, especially since he played with Butkus and coached Walter, but I remember him doing an interview and saying those exact words.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that too.
And it looked to me like he almost just didn’t want to argue about it with the other guys on set. That’s the feeling I got while watching him say it.
Cause he has also said that Walter was the greatest player he (Ditka) ever saw.
So I have seen Iron Mike basically give two different answers.
But you are correct. He has said it (but I don’t think for a minute he believes it).
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Da Coach has been known to have a drink or two before going on the air so let's write it off to that
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may have solved that puzzle BearFan611
He might have been tired from playing golf in the hot sun, downed a few cocktails and, combined with all the dents in his head from his days as a human battering ram in the NFL . . . he might have forgotten and thought that he coached Jerry Rice instead of Walter Payton.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, great post
I’ve only been involved with this for a short time, but this generated more good discussion than any of the one’s I’ve seen. Great job.
by BearFan611 on May 22, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He must do the same before the draft...
at least when he was with the Saints :-)
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on May 22, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it wasn't for that
asshole from Green Bay(I forget his name) who illegally slammed McMahon to the turf we could of got at least another 3-4 seasons from Jimmy Mac.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
by phastphil on May 22, 2009 12:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW
Great Post! My favorite all – time Bear (outside of Walter of course). He was inspirational and he bled being a bear at the time. I have met him once and he autographed my Mad Mac jersey which hangs on my basement wall. By the way my fantasy football team is named "Mad Mac’s’! an my logo is the McMahon picture of mooning superbowl week!
by tfrabotta on May 22, 2009 12:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Football aside
McMahon is probably the coolest human to ever walk the earth. He makes guys like Jim Morrison, Jack Nicholson, James Dean…. look like dweebert nozzles.
by weasel27 on May 22, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Jim was off the charts on the coolness scale.
Like him or not, he never wavered. He always stayed true to himself.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
great spot loved to read it
is it september yet? GO BEARS!!!!!!!
If you live in Chicago you are a bears fan, if you move from chicago you stay a bears fan, if you move to chicago you will be a bears fan.
by chi-town on May 22, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is untrue actually a tremendous prick
A great football player, yes but as a human a real jerk
My brother and I saw him at Northbrook Court one day just walking around. (We were probably 12 and 8 respectively)
We walked up and said that we were big Bears fans and thought he was great. Then asked for a autograph. He proceeded to berate and yell at us that we were invading him personal life and to leave him alone.
12 year old and an 8 year old.
Class act.
by tempchad on May 22, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That kind of stuff can really stick with you when you are such a young kid and that happens.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
by Dane Noble on May 22, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is that on the field he was great
off the field, he wasn’t a nice guy.
let us don’t combine the two things.
And, I can separate them to a point. I can deal with a guy who is a general prick and still root for him but then there is Ron Mexico who I hope dies real soon.
by tempchad on May 22, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a big lover of live music,
and for a couple of years would meet different artists that I liked, either at festivals or smaller venues. It seemed like for a while, every artist I would meet would end up being total d-bags, and I would quit listening to their music. Now, I don’t even try to meet them… I just go for the music, and that’s all.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
by Dane Noble on May 22, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could try Tupac on a ouija board
Death might have mellowed him out a bit :-D
by Spongie on May 23, 2009 6:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or catch him on the beach...
in jamaica somewhere…
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's funny is this
someone was saying that Mike Singletary was rude to his mother or aunt or something like that. Seriously. I had trouble even picturing it but that’s what the guy said.
I mean, I’ve never heard anything like that before regarding Singletary.
You never know. Not to excuse that kind of behavior, but if you or I had a million people coming up to us we might lose it sometimes too or act like a jackass.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to children. that was inexcusable
and he was walking around a mall. not in a store in the middle of doing something.
it’s not like i interrupted a meal either. i live in los angeles and i find bothering a celebrity in the middle of their lunch/dinner awful. but outside walking around in public, you (he) are a public figure. that is the price you pay for being a rich celebrity.
now, some fat drunk guy walking up to him saying things like “hey dude, too bad your injuries cost you a career, but i’m still a fan”, now that guy deserves it.
side note: we also saw BJ Armstrong right after he got drafted by the Bulls and my brother (older than 8 but not old enough to understand what a backhanded compliment was) goes up to him and says “i don’t care what they say about you in the papers, i think you are going to be great in the NBA”
by tempchad on May 22, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not excusing his behavior at all.
It’s too bad something like that had to happen. I’d be upset if I was you too.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no f#ckin way does he get away with this!!!!
i used to have to serve him and a group of at least seven other people at carlos murphy’s in schaumburg… he was the biggest prick and never left a tip… sorry i don’t share everybody else’s love for him… btw, he was coming from church when he would do this to me… and since i was the only manger on sundays, i actually complained to the church!!! and anybody who lived in palatine knows i’m telling the truth!!!
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Tippin' Pippen, Favre,
Rod Woodson etc… Billy Gillispie was fired from Ky because he wouldn’t embrace fans. Steve McMichael will not make the HOF and not because of his performance on the field. Jim Rice is just now going to the Hall of Fame. Some of these athletes pay the price publicly for their short comings and some I believe pay the price privately. Given a chance, many people change. Some folks take longer to realize that they’re a**holes than others. Many of us would give anything to take back horrible things we have said to people we love, let alone strangers. People for the most part are good natured, but unfortunately we do get wrapped up in moments of selfishness, carelessness, entitlement, and being short sighted. I battle with it every single day.
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my zen moment for the day...
thanks…
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look
I am talking about McMahon and all these other guys ON THE FIELD only.
I tended bar in Chicago and in the suburbs (like Schaumburg). I’ve served guys from Steve McMichael to Paul Hornung.
I currently live in Phoenix where I’m good friends with a family whose son played for the Dallas Cowboys alongside guys like Michael Irvin.
A lot (certainly not all) of these guys are jackasses for a very simple reason: Since the time they were old enough to put on a uniform, they had people kissing their asses and telling them how great they are.
Unless they kill someone (like OJ) or end up in jail (like Vick) athletes should be judged by what they do on the field only.
The ‘greatness’ of Jim McMahon applies only to his on-the-field play. Not off-the-field.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
roger goddell would strongly disagree with you.
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What
about not tipping about about being rude to fans?
Come on now. Let’s be serious here.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the part about...
athlete’s only being judged by what they do on the field… and probably the tipping thing too, not sure.
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The not tipping applies to a large number of celebrities outside sports also.
After years of people kissing up to them they really start to believe that just being in their presence is reward enough. Politicians too… They’re probably the worst, especially once they’ve been in office a long time.
by BigGeorgeTX on May 23, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the post that spawned this was
one that said he was the coolest guy in the world. i.e. not just in football. stay with the subthread .
by tempchad on May 23, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that it exonerates him, but he was probably drunk.
by Spongie on May 22, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
GREAT POST MAN!
Keep ’em coming!
Mathias
by Mathias-K on May 22, 2009 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you listening Jimmy Mac
I only wish Jimmy was reading these….he’d probably be laughing his ass off!!! GO BEARS!!
Butkus/McMahon4evr!
by BUTKUSMCMAHON on May 22, 2009 7:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McMahon changed everything
He was the last major piece to the championship caliber team. It was only a matter of time after he was drafted. Both sides of the ball had young and very talented players.
How does this compare to what the Bears are trying to do now?
The defense might have already seen its’ better days and the offense is like a big piece of swiss cheese with plenty of holes. In Cutler we have a young and talented kid with the potential to develop into a top 5 QB. Can the Bears figure out how to rebuild around Jay?
by rocko1 on May 22, 2009 8:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the funny thing to me is
the defense was so scary and bad-assed yet it was McMahon that gave that team attitude.
by tempchad on May 22, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's my suggestion:
I hope the Bears win it all in 2009. Or at least make the playoffs and do well there. That said, if Lovie Smith & his staff falter:
The Bears must dump Lovie and bring in Mike Shanahan.
A). Shanahan is from the Chicago area.
B). Cutler is his boy. He personally scouted Jay and wanted him all along in that draft of 2006. Jay was Mike’s pet project.
C). The 49ers, long known for offense, now have a defensive HC in Mike Singletary. Maybe we should do the same. Instead of hiring DC’s, bring in an offensive mind. The defensive minded Bears go offensive for a HC, as a change-of-pace. Why not? You can still play great defense with an offensive minded HC. The 49ers under Bill Walsh were almost always had a top 5 – 10 defense to go along with their excellent offense.
D). I’m not the biggest fan of Mike Shanahan as HC, but give him a good GM to work with and an excellent DC to help compliment his offense, and it all makes sense.
The bottom line is this. The Bears went out on a limb to get a QB who could be/should be a franchise QB for the next 10 years. You simply cannot waste that. You must go all the way there and surround him with great coaches to take advantage of his great skill set.
If that’s not Lovie and Ron Turner, then Mike Shanahan is a no-brainer alternative. The Bears simply must bite the bullet and pay what is needed to get a HC like Shanahan to go along with Jay Cutler . . .
Shanahan took this year off because he’s still getting paid by Denver. He’ll be coaching somewhere next year.
This is my suggestion IF the Bears underachieve this year. The pressure is squarely on the coaching staff. I am not hoping that Lovie fails. I am simply saying what they should do if he does.
I don’t follow auto racing but to me, this is like getting a great car (Jay Cutler) and then hiring substandard mechanics and guys in the pit crew. It doesn’t make sense.
We’ve got a young stud QB. We need to surround him with the best available. If not Lovie and company, then a proven commodity like Mike Shanahan.
by GeoMak on May 22, 2009 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post, great memories
There will never be another team like the Bears in the 80s. Jim Mac arriving at training camp with a beer in his hand, mooning helicopters in New Orleans, wearing his Roselle headbands. Makes me laugh thinking about it. There were legends like Payton and Singletary. The head-butting kicker. The 300-pound Fridge carrying the ball for TDs. The sick, sick defense. Iron Mike. Roller skating around the office on Metrodome week. Getting in a fight with Buddy at halftime of the Super Bowl. Throwing clipboards. The super bowl shuffle. It was the perfect team for Chicago. Thanks for reminding us all of how great McMahon was. It’s too bad people forget about McMahon when they say the Bears haven’t had a good qb since Luckman.
by smithie love on May 22, 2009 10:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Forgive me if I am wrong, but...
Wasn’t there a big flap about Tomczak relaying signals to Jimmy Mac while the Bears were playing the Pack? I believe Hardluck accused Tomczak of trying to sabotage his start. Does anyone remember that? If true, do we then say, “Look at what a great competitor Jimmy was, willing to put aside his great love for the Bears just to help the Pack win!” Or do we say, “Jim McMahon was a pretty good QB, but his selfishness, as evidenced by his arrogance and cockiness (showboating), along with injuries. tarnished what would have been a wonderful legacy!” Some would say, “Good on him!” for being a part of it. But it seems to me that time often changes our opinions. Last year, the blogs were filled with demands for JA’s head, a mere two years after we reached the playoffs. This year, after the JC trade, not so much. Go figure!
by Fly1965 on May 23, 2009 8:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
it seems to me that time often changes our opinions
In JA’s case, not so much “time” as…
after the JC trade
by Spongie on May 23, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to remember that too.
It really comes down to what he did on the field. Being a jerk to kids is never acceptable, but that doesn’t change his performance and record. He knew how to play the position better than most guys do, that knowledge and anticipation is what allowed him to get away with his lack of a big arm (sorry, GeoMak), and he got his teammates excited about the game. One thing that Fly1965’s story did remind me about though, was the way McMahon and Tomczak (who I always felt was a real tool) really froze out Doug Flutie to the detriment of the team. Jimmy Mac didn’t seem to want someone with that much notoriety at the QB position while he was out with an injury and he knew Tomczak was a role player at best. That was a season, where we still could have beeen championship caliber if McMahon stayed healthy or another QB could have stepped up, but I always felt that Flutie was unfairly treated by McMahon and “his guys”, so he had very little chance of succeeding. Had not thought about that in a lot of years.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bears
really should learn how to handle success. They sucked at it then, they suck at it now!
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BearFan611
You and I are kind of not communicating here. I agree. Jim lacked a ‘big arm.’ I never said he had one. I said he was a great passer (IMO) with an average arm. Just like Montana.
Not all QB’s with great arms are great passers. Not all great passers have great arms.
And yeah, he resented Flutie as he thought Tomczak should have been his replacement and he was not a good teammate in that situation. GM Jerry Vainisi was angry about the way that all went down.
To me, when I speak of Jim McMahon is speak MAINLY of 1982 to 1985. From the day he was drafted to the day they won SB XX. Others can disagree, but that’s mainly how I looked at it.
After that it all started falling apart. Mainly because Buddy Ryan left (and Ditka replaced him with Vince Tobin, who ran a read-and-react scheme, the complete opposite of Ryan’s).
And mainly because the egos on the team (starting with Ditka and filtering all the way down) got completely out-of-control.
They started playing less as a team and more as a collection of individual players.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just busting your chops on the arm thing, from the previous posts
I think we’re exactly on the same page on this. McMahon was the key reason (they had a great defense and Walter before he got there) they were the dominant team that they were. I would rather have 10 McMahon’s (during his prime and uninjured) and Montana’s and even Bart Starr’s than a Dan Marino. Marino was so in love with his passing ability and Shula fell in love with it too, that they never played as a great team. I think he is probably the best passer in history, but far from the best QB. And I couldn’t agree more about the rest of the team falling apart, which I blame on Ditka. As rdent4hof mentioned, they could not handle success, including the head coach whose job it was IMO to do just that. When all is said and done, this is the ultimate Team Sport and when you try to make any part of it more important than the others, you will not be successful. It’s why I Iove it….it’s also why I hate Fantasy Football since it flys in the face of everything relating to team.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a big fan of fantasy football either...
the only thing i can’t stand more than that is the “betting” fan. now, i’m not trying to incite a riot with what i’m about to say, but i believe fantasy football waters down fanhood. i see it all the time… bears fans with minney’s D, cowboy fans with DNABB as their starting quarterback. if you ask me, move DNABB to the boys in madden… at least your still rooting for your own damn team!!!
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I enjoy fantasy football very...
… much. I have been participating in FF for 9 years and it has actually allowed me to enjoy the NFL more than what I originally did. I completely agree that it waters down fanhood. People are now watching the NFL, ONLY because of fantasy football. In fact for the long run, I’m not sure fantasy is good for football. That being said, I will probably play FF every season for the rest of my life. I enjoy it that much. For me it’s about the fellowship with the guy’s and gal’s in the leagues. Trash talk, bragging rights, and the “I told you so” factor. It’s fun. For the record, I do not draft any players in the NFC North (other than Bears) or any cowboys. That makes for a a pleasant and loyal FF experience.
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion
that’s what this whole site is about. I’m glad you enjoy it, I’m probably just too old and too old school to get into it. Hope you win your league this year.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i get the comraderie part to it...
i really do! but if you see the guys i watch football with, we run the gamit on team diversity, so every game of every team is closely scrutinized(being nice), and critiqued(again, being nice) way more than any FF league. it might be pulling more people to watch football, but when i’m watching a game, any game, all the games(i’m twisted like that), the last thing i wanna hear is how you should’ve sat so-and-so, shoul’ve played so-and-so…well, you get my point. plus, i like 13-10 scores(defense baby), which from what i understand, is kinda counterproductive when it comes to FF. at least it’s making the typical fan(can’t name more than three players on THEIR team) to think outside of the box and explore the rest of the NFL, so i guess it can’t be all bad.
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually...
… agree on everything you and BearsFan611 have said.
Discussing football > Discussing fantasy, and not even close.
I am a smash mouth fan as well. Run and stop the run. Like you said “defense baby”
Our opinions I think are the same. One plays FF and two don’t.
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol...
and i too hope you win your league. if i was a little abrasive, my apologies. i let some punk cheesehead ruin my coffee time.
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
and forgive the punk. He’s probably just some dumb a** fantasy player.
by rdent4hof on May 23, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO!!!
dumb ass, yes… but i doubt it he knows enough about football to achieve that goal!!!
by windycity72 on May 23, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Marino
never wanted to share the backfield with a great RB.
Shula felt like “Why run when Marino can just sling iot down the field?”
In the end, they both said “We should have had a running game to go along with Marino.”
Go figure.
I could not agree more with your assessment about Marino.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a preseason game
against SD right after McMahon was traded to the Chargers. Preseason games are a joke.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your man-crush with mcmahon is getting old.
You can’t say that he even belongs with the great QBs. Greatest is defined by being one of the best at what you do. Arm strength= par to sub-par, accuracy= marginal, decision making= good to very. I don’t see any catergory that he is elite in… You stand here and preach that he was sooooo great when in reality he is barely a top 100 quarterback if even that. Fact is that mcmahon would never have left the bench in today NFL. And his Punky attitude…. Wow the best QB ever…. Not a team player and an ass at that.
You need to understand that a Quaterback that is injury prone, and not that good does not derserve to be place among the greats. Period. Lesson Learned!
When I played I was a triple threat.... Stumble.... Fumble.....Grumble....
"Marcus Harrison iz in ur Backfield sackin ur Quataback!"
by scespy12 on May 23, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the dumbest thing I ever read.
Really. You should be embarrased to write something that stupid.
And beyond that, you twist things around and put words in my mouth that I never said.
Sub par arm strength? Really. Where do you get that?
Marginal accuracy? Again where?
Not a team player? Pure stupidity. Really. Most of his teammates loved playing with him.
Did you watch Jim actually play son?
I could go on but I can’t argue stupid. Really.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who wrote this above post?
geomak or tempchad?
by tempchad on May 23, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nowhere in this entire chain has anyone said he was the Best QB Ever
All anyone has said is that for the time he was with the Bears, when he wasn’t hurt, he was an excellent QB. We have compared him to different QB’s throughout history and made cases for why we preferred him, or not, but opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. I don’t think anyone claims that he’ll go down in history as one of the top QB’s in the NFL, but in the history of the Bears, you have to have him up there near Luckman. His personality off the field has also been pretty much spelled out and none of us put him up for Sainthood. I think you’ve taken all that was said in this post and taken it out of the original context, which was McMahon’s place in Chicago Bear history.
Kind of a similar comparison to a modern day player would be our #1 receiver. While his time was relatively short lived, it’s my opinion that Jim McMahon should hold a much higher place in Bears lore than Devin Hester, who only has had 2 seasons as a great KR/PR but a lot of people who write on this site consider to be “the best ever”. I think that fans who still remember Gale Sayers would beg to differ with that assessment despite what the stats (and the jerks at ESPN) say over a very short time.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At what he did Devin hester is the best....
In 2 years he came within 2 or 3 tds of the All-Time record. Gale Sayers was Great but…. Devin is the Better returner. Held by Gale Sayers…. No it not.
Regarding the Greatest QB ever… Geos man crush makes that pretty evident. In fact I challenge him to make an Accurate assessment of mcmahon.
When I played I was a triple threat.... Stumble.... Fumble.....Grumble....
"Marcus Harrison iz in ur Backfield sackin ur Quataback!"
by scespy12 on May 23, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You never answed my question
BearFan611 pretty much stated the case in his 12:42 post above.
Basically, my definition of Greatness for Jim lies in what Mike Ditka said:
“I don’t care how great Walter Payton was. I don’t care how great our defense was. We don’t win the Super Bowl without McMahon. Period.”
For that (Jim’s role in helping bring the Bears their only SB victory) he should be universally celebrated by long suffering Bear fans.
Think Ditka was wrong?
I have one word for you then.
1984.
In 1984 Jim’s season ended when he was sandwiched between two LA Raiders and his kidney was lacerated. It was a vicious hit that Jim took that day.
That game has long been considered to be one of the most violent in NFL history.
The Raiders lost so many QB’s that day that they almost had to use punter Ray Guy at QB.
HOF defensive tackle Merlin Olsen, who was a member of the Fearsome Foursome with the Rams, broadcast that game for NBC that day.
His comment about the level of violence he watched on the field below that day: “It was frightening.”
Anyway, the Bears went to Washington and beat the Redskins in the playoffs that year, only to get shutout in the NFC Championship game the following week in San Francisco, 23-0.
If they were all about the defense and Walter Payton, why did they lose 23-0?
Answer? Because Joe Montana started for the 49ers and back-up Steve Fuller started for the Bears.
The following year in 1985, the Bears again went to SF and this time won by almost the same score, 26-10.
The difference between the loss in 1984 and the victory in 1985? It’s mainly the fact that Jim McMahon played in 1985 but sat and watched in 1984.
That’s always my simple answer for people that question Jim’s value to a team with a great defense and a HOF RB.
But seriously scespy12, tell me how old you are or how many games you watched Jim play.
I’m guessing that you are under 35 and NEVER watch him play the game.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would kill to get my hands on a dvd of that game
fwiw, i have the dvd of the entire 85 season.
and no, i won’t send copies to anyone and yes i am saying this to brag.
by tempchad on May 23, 2009 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You obviously never saw Sayers
you also have to consider that Gale did what he did while playing running back full time, whereas the “great” Mr. Hester is so tired and distracted when they put him out at WR that he couldn’t return a kick or punt 10 yards last year. Not to mention they even took his KR duties away from halfway through the season. His stats may say he has the most yards/TD’s per return but no way is the return man Sayers was.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 3:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jim Mc Mahon
I once got crucified by GeoMak for posting that McMahon’s 1985 numbers weren’t much better than Ortons 2008 numbers. I was then and still am correct. However, before anyone goes running for the nails and lumber let me say that Jim McMahon was an electrifying football player and he brought an attitude to the offense. Statistically I think McMahon (Pro career Geo NOT college) was a slightly above average QB but he had presence in the huddle and that mysterious “it”. He made the Bears a better team in 1985. He didn’t have a long enough career to get a true measure of the man.
"Like a young contortionist, for the first time coming into his own...." -Bert Sugar
by Just Dave on May 23, 2009 8:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember that
But I’m sure that you are not making it up.
As far as Orton goes, I have always been on record that, to me, he played very well last year, at least until he was injured.
I’m not a big ‘numbers guy.’ As I related earlier in another response here, people often talk about Montana like he’s God and McMahon & Simms like they were dogs.
Montana played in a passing system under Bil Walsh and Jim & Phil in running offenses.
That skews the numbers quite a bit.
McMahon was really unhappy coming from what he had at BYU to what was there in Chicago, as far as scheme and philosophy. Fortunately it worked out for all involved.
His leadership skills and the confidence McMahon gave his team by them knowing that he had above average passing skills (unlike almost everybody that preceded him in Chicago) were a huge factor on that team.
And I agree with your last sentence: He didn’t have a long enough career to get a true measure of the man.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and Gale Sayers was the greatest Bear and football player ever.
Statistically, in theory, metaphysically, spiritually and in all planes of reality. Why, cause he had “IT”. I love Walter Payton. Really I do. The man was amazing!! He was! But Gale Sayers could make a GREAT defender look silly and routinely did.
"Like a young contortionist, for the first time coming into his own...." -Bert Sugar
by Just Dave on May 23, 2009 8:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
longevity goes a long way (pun intended) to be considered the greatest
bo jackson probably would have been the greatest of all time but got injured.
so no, Sayers was great but didn’t play long enough.
by tempchad on May 23, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He played long enough to make the Hall of Fame, and on the first ballot
so, no offense tempchad, but I have to defer to the HOF voters who say he was great.
by BearFan611 on May 23, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gale Sayers & Sandy Koufax
are two players whose careers were cut short by injuries but were so dominant that there was never any discussion about their being in the HOF.
Bo was a great player but he was only a part-time player in addition to having a short career.
Sayers & Koufax are the gold standard for HOF players with short careers.
by GeoMak on May 23, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sayers = greatest Bear?
While I agree Sayers was one of the most exciting football players of his or any time, I am not even convinced Sayers was the greatest player on his own team. That honor goes to Butkus.
by lookingdeadred on May 30, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,very good post.
I remember when JM first entered a game. Before that, it seeemed like no one was open and then all of the sudden Jimmy Mac enters the game and everyone is open. Funny thing from one perspective to another with QB’s. He was great, he had coaching, and he had talent around him. But I really think besides the physical attributes and good decision making…most of all he brought attitude. GREAT QB!!!!
Hear about the blind hooker, you gotta hand it to her.
by Bears fan 4-ever!!! on May 24, 2009 12:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's a really interesting interview on Letterman with McMahon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EBrJCJJr_g
He’s really entertaining to watch. My favorite part is when he called something else instead of the play Ditka sent in…
Letterman: Was that the play that had been planned or the play that had been called from the sidelines?
McMahon: No it wasn’t. Mike [Ditka] had sent in a draw play at that particular time, and seeing as how all of our draw plays weren’t working too effectively up to that point in the ballgame I didn’t see any reason to call it again
lmao what a badass!
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 24, 2009 2:12 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
He overruled his HC's
but they really couldn’t say much, basically because he was smarter than they were.
Like you say. He was a badass.
by GeoMak on May 24, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry it took me so long.
I remember the game, the play, and even watching him on Letterman. Nice work. Rec’d
Hear about the blind hooker, you gotta hand it to her.
by Bears fan 4-ever!!! on May 25, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McMahon and Luckman
I AM that old and I DO remember Luckman. He and McMahon are the two greatest QB’s in Bears history. If Luckman has an edge, it is in longevity and because the Bears won more championships under his leadership. (Luckman played on more great Bears teams than McMahon did.) They were both good passers but their greatness was in all the qualities you so eloquently attributed to McMahon. Ditto for Luckman. Sammy Baugh was the great passer in Luckman’s era (and possibly of all time – check his stats) just as Moreno was in McMahon’s. As you would choose McMahon over Moreno to win that one big game for you, you would have chosen Luckman over Baugh. Luckman knew the Bears playbook inside out. It was said of him that he could go through a season and never call the exact same play twice. McMahan, like you said, was more of a rebel when it came to conventional play calling. Both were great at reading defenses and both trusted their instincts completely. In the 1946 championship game against the NY Giants, the Bears were somewhere between the Giants 10 and 15 yardline late in the game needing a TD to win. Luckman took the ball and ran to his right, as if to pass. The defense faded back to defend the pass, knowing Luckman wouldn’t dare run, because nearing the end of his career, he was too slow. Luckman ran it in and the Bears won. It was not an option play. He intended to run it in from the call in the huddle. He called the now legendary “bingo keep it play” anticipatimg that the Giants would guess wrong because of his lack of speed.
Two other Bears QB’s looked like they were on their way to greatness when Lady Luck ran out on them: Johnny Lujack, heir apparent to Luckman, had a couple of very good seasons but then injured his throwing arm. He finished out his career as as an outstanding DB. Zeke Bratkowski played behind George Blanda his rookie season. When Blanda was injured and could no longer play, Bratkowski came in and guided the Bears through the last 6 games of the seaon in an outstanding manner. Because he was a graduate of the AF Acadamy, he had to spend his next four years in the AF. When he came back to the Bears he had lost his sharpness and hi touch. Two very sad stories about two great athletes – and the Bears.
by distressed on May 25, 2009 4:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak for everyone...
… but I appreciate the insight and old school comparisons. Reading this allows me to look back with a clearer vision and understanding of how some things played out.
Just so you know distressed, I don’t need to look at Sammy Baugh’s stats. He is one of the best ever. I was very saddened to here of his passing this past Dec. Baugh was ahead of his time on and off the field. He asked the redskins owner to sign some black players, when he knew it wasn’t a popular question with the racist owner. Baugh also often stated how much he loved the game today (when often you here the old school players rip todays game). For any football fan that doesn’t know much about ‘Slingin’ Sammy Baugh’s greatness or his effortless humor, check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdL6hY-9_e4
This video barely scratches the surface
by rdent4hof on May 25, 2009 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
for bringing a voice of reason to the conversation. It’s great to hear from someone who has seen as much of the NFL as you have and put some “realtime” comparisons to this post.
by BearFan611 on May 25, 2009 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post GeoMak-my turn
Jim was the greatest Bear QB period. In 1985 Walter threw TD to Mac. the next year I think, 1986 I was at a game vs KC Chiefs. Christian Okoye had run for 2 TD’s and the Bears were losing 17-6. Macmahon comes off the bench after getting the snot drilled out of him to throw 2 bombs to Willie Gault and a 20-17 win. I remember being at the WBBM radio booth before the game and Len Dawson threw me an autographed football. I won some silly contest. They had asked who drove the farthest to get to Soldier Field. I had just ridden into town on my BICYCLE from Milwaukee, 90 miles.
"It was a wise Man that invented Beer" (Plato)
by LarryCubFan on May 26, 2009 12:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that trip is boring enough by car!!!
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear.
by windycity72 on May 26, 2009 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mac was overrated
Mac was at best a good QB who had the good fortune to play on an immensely talented team. He was a very good fit, when healthy, for that Bears team. But let’s be honest, Steve Fuller’s record filling in for McMahon was pretty much the same as McMahon’s record. The offense was built around the O-line and Payton. McMahon and the passing game was built around taking advantage of the defense’s pre-occupation with stopping Payton, not because of McMahon’s “gifts” as a QB.
by lookingdeadred on May 30, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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