Debate Time "QBs vs. WRs"
by chase17 on May 6, 2009 4:10 PM CDT
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PrintSo I was browsing ESPN.com and came across this question on the NFC North Blog.
If you had to pick, would you prefer a great quarterback with average receivers or vice versa? After all, that pretty much describes the situations in Chicago and Minnesota, respectively. What's the preferable arrangement?
In response to the question as related to the Bears and Viqueens, I take Cutler all day and the reason don't believe that the Minnesota receiving core is that dominant. They have Berrian who is a solid #2 receiver and Wade who is a very weak #2, possibly even a #3. Then when you throw TEs into the mix, all I have to say is I take Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark over Shiancoe any day. So my point is that Minnisota doesn't have a good enough receiving core to make this a debate.
Now in response to the question throughout the NFL, I still take the QB and the reason is found in Seiferts reponse
A really good group of receivers can bail out an average quarterback at times, but not to the extent that an elite quarterback can lift an average group of receivers. I'll take Tom Brady with Troy Brown and David Patten over Ryan Fitzpatrick with Chad Ocho Cinco and T.J. Houshmandzadeh any day.
and who wouldn't?
What are your thoughts?
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That's a tough call because they compliment each other IMO.
With that being said, QB.
by Bears fan 4-ever!!! on May 6, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
QB. Duh. It's the single most important position on the field.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Give Me A QB
We as Bear fans have no clue what it is like to witness a good QB make average WR’s better…just Average (or worse) QB’s making Average WR’s look average
(Asshole Sr) "If you learn one thing here, NEVER pass out in Ohio."
it's symbiotic, of course, from a stats point
if a WR can’t catch or run routes or can’t get open there is nothing even Peyton Manning can do.
But a QB is much much more than just a guy who throws a football, so as far as importance overall to a football team, the QB is far more important than the WR.
definitely a great qb
qbs make things happen. they r the leaders of the team. you can have great receivers but if the qb cant make it to them who cares. the qb is definitely the heart and sould of any team. which is exactly why we lost the super bowl against the colts. rex grossman was not a team leader, he was a follower. when he was good he was good. but when he was bad he couldnt get out of it unless someone else made a great play to save his butt.
QB QB Cutler QB QB :)
Most important position in all sports, not just football.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 6, 2009 7:01 PM CDT reply actions
Hard to argue with that Brady logic
But its hard to debate fairly because of all the variables. Unless 2 teams change QBs in midseason, you have to account for differences in almost every other facet of the game.
But I still say the Bears had some decent QBs in Orton and Grossman; they just had some of the worst WR corps in league history. Add to that a aging OLine and IMO, a consistently poor offensive game plan and that would make any QB look a little worse. I think our OLine could be very good this year, and our WRs to be a little bit better.
While I don’t believe Denver has great WRs, they were productive last year. Lets see what Orton can do for those guys; and what Cutler can do for the Bears WRs(who will look pretty different this year). Of course Denver has new coaches in place, so its still not an ideal comparison.
Agreed, QB. But I've always wondered
Were Mark Clayton and Mark Duper really great receivers, or were they average or slightly above-average players who were elevated by Marino’s play? Since it’s kind of a related topic, I thought I’d ask for some opinions. I’ve always kinda questioned whether they would have been standouts on another team, even with an average QB.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay
I argued this a lot actually and i looked at it like this.
I think if the Dolphins would of put a better team around Dan Marino. A better Running Back, A better Defense, and yes Better Receivers, then Marino would have won multiple Super Bowls in my opinion but guess we’ll never know.
by Chitownproduct on May 7, 2009 6:15 AM CDT up reply actions
to add on that
Look at the receivers that Tom Brady had winning all three superbowls. Troy Brown, David Patton, Deion Branch, David Givens. all average number two and three WRs. Then, look at his stats explosion when he got Stallworth, Moss, and Welker.
so the WR definitely helps, but all in all, I’d say the quarterback makes the biggest difference.
Think With Your Dipstick Jimmy!
by ifuwannacrownem on May 7, 2009 6:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree the QB does make the biggest difference
I think some of the Dan Marino, Warren Moon, etc etc QB’s that never won a Super Bowl could have if they had an all around good defense and offense and special teams balance around them. I never remembered the Dolphins for a good defensive team or the Houston Oilers for that matter (although they may have been better statwise, they weren’t known for good defense)
Maybe coaching was a factor too, i think in general people underestimate how important a coaching staff is.
by Chitownproduct on May 7, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Marino had a HOF head coach. In fact, the winningest coach in NFL history.
They just couldn’t assemble a “team” that could win it all.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
No running game.
I am fairly certain Marino never had a 1000yd rusher.
Yeah... that was always a problem.
He only had one 1,000 yard rusher… Karim Adul-Jabbar in 1996.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
But... as evidence to how great QBs can make WRs look good.
Marino only had Clayton and Duper all those years. Both guys were only 5’9"… and put up enormous stats.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
And Brady made Deon Branch
a WHOLE LOT of money.
Marino's Dolphins
Marino played with average to below average teammates in Miami most of his career. His ability made them competitive. If Shula could have put a decent group of guys around him, who knows what Marino could have done.
by lookingdeadred on May 7, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Clayton and Duper
They were at best good players. Marino made those two guys not the other way around. Marino’s quick release and uncanny accuracy would have made any run-of-the-mill WRs look like pro-bowlers.
by lookingdeadred on May 7, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Though good receivers can...
… obviously make a huge difference, especially at the college level. I’ll take a QB.
a great QB can make average WR’s good
a great WR can make an average QB, a little better than average… because you never know if the QB has enough accuracy to get the ball close enough for a great WR to make a play on it
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on May 7, 2009 11:29 AM CDT reply actions
Steve Smith and Moose
have made Delhomme what he is. I don’t think the guy is a #1 in the NFL.
A great OLine
makes the entire offense better.
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which makes the running game better...
which opens up the passing game… which keeps the defense on the sidelines, and in turn contributes to make the D better cuz they’re fresher, which helps with either punting less, and/or better field position, which in turn helps our offense. so…. i guess what i’m saying is if i had to choose between a QB or WR, i’d pick defense.
If I had to chose,
I’d chose OL, then QB.
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but as the old addage goes...
… defense wins championships. maybe i’m partial cuz that’s where i played, i don’t know. yep, i’m the fan of the 13-10 games… frequently played over in the AFC north. think about it, the cards have a great QB with not only one, but two great WRs… both of which were going nowhere until there D finally synched up… or woke up… whichever.
You are 100% correct.
The Cards finally figured out how to stop the run. And that gets over-shadowed by Warner/ Fitz/ Boldin.
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No, they were pretty decent at stopping the run for the past few years...
but they finally learned how to play some pass defense which allowed them to play there schemes better and didn’t have to play the LBs in coverage as much, which caused there stats to be skewed
Very true...
Their pass defense did greatly improve too. And yes, they have been solid in their pass rush for a few seasons. I am just remembering all of the 1st and 10 situations over the last few years when teams would get 5-6 yards every time. Last season, they were much more effective in 1st down situations, and in 3rd and short situations, as compared to recent years.
/Their
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Cutler is the perfect test subject for this question.
I think you first have to consider whether Cutler was made good by good WRs (and scheme) or if Cutler enhanced the WRs (probably it’s some of both). The Broncos have a top 5 WR core, good TEs, a solid running game, and an elite O line. Not to mention a proven scheme and coaching staff that produced Pro Bowl seasons from Elway, Griese, Plummer, and Cutler. These things certainly didn’t detract from Cutler’s performance. The question is “how much did they contribute to it”? It’ll be interesting to find out how Cutler does without some of those things.
The obvious answer to the question at hand is that you really need some of both.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
A solid running game?
really, when did you see that last year? That was there one weakness on offense last year, they couldn’t run the ball to save their lives.
I actually wrote a fanpost about that (based on a pervious conversation at WCG):
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/4/822393/why-we-shouldnt-draft-a-rb-in-the
From the fanpost:
According to nfl.com the Broncos were 12th in the league in total rushing yards at 1,862 yards on the season. That in itself is not bad; however, in terms of average yards per carry (ypc) the Broncos were tied with the Carolina Panthers and Kansas City Chiefs for second highest in the league at 4.8 ypc. Furthermore, they were only 0.2 ypc behind the Giants who had the highest average ypc at 5.0. For comparison purposes, the Bears were 24th in the NFL in total rushing yards and 26th in ypc. Despite running the ball 47 more times than the Broncos (averaging just shy of 3 more times per game) they had 189 less total rushing yards.
From SlowWhiteGuy in the comments in that article:
Football Outsiders tracks a lot of statistics to try to isolate individual elements of team performance. One of those statistics is Adjusted Line Yards which attempts to isolate how much of a teams running is based on offensive line play and how much is based on the running back. According to FO the Broncos had the best run blocking line in the NFL, by a fairly significant margin. NE was #2. That would tend to indicate that Denver’s success was due to line play and not the backs which begs the question how much better would the Broncos have been with better RBs?
I think that the Broncos had a greater problem committing to the run than actually running. I can’t site the source, however, I remember reading that Cutler would frequently audible out of running plays at the line. I think Cutler and Jeremy Bates were conspiring to eliminate rushing from the Broncos offense entirely. But that doesn’t mean we couldn’t run the ball.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
I dunno,
Personally, I think the fact that teams expects you to pass most of the time helps your running game. At least it should (AZ 32nd in Rushing). The funny part is that despite their relatively effective rushing attack (12th), the Broncos only scored one more Rushing TD than AZ and the Bears (and Vikings and Eagles) scored just as many (14). I think that comes down to the playcalling in those situations as well as the player’s ability to get it done when it counts most. Playing from behind a lot of the time (at least that is what it felt like all season, I don’t have any statistics on how long they were trailing) probably discourages eating the clock up with 5 yard running plays. You don’t run the ball when you have many yards to go (see Broncos ST) and many points to make up.
In all honesty, I don’t think stats will tell you as much as actually watching the game. I watched all of the Bronco’s games last year except for 2 (vs. the Jets and vs. the Bills). I thought the Bronco’s passed as much as they had to to have a chance to win. If they would have run any more than they had I would argue they would have beat the Raiders for the bottom of the West title.
And yes, I do use parenthesis far too often.
!
I completely agree that stats rarely tell a whole story. However, the Broncos rushing stats are pretty hard to ignore. At very least, I don’t think you can fairly say the Broncos “couldn’t run the ball to save their lives”, which was Chase17’s point that I was attempting to dispute. I think the Broncos probably weren’t as good of a running team as the stats would suggest; however, I also don’t think they were anywhere near as bad as many people seem to think. Once again, I think the Broncos had a bigger problem with committing to the run rather than actually running (I don’t think that’s a surprise considering our primary playcaller was 32 years old).
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
Why don't they make the actual comparison?
Brady is arguably the best QB in the league. Ocho Cinco and Houshmanzadeh are arguably in the Top-10.
Why not say: Would you take Jay Cutler w/ Troy Brown and David Patten, or Tavaris Jackson w/ Chad Ocho Cinco and T.J. Houshmandazadeh. I’d take the latter there.
Or at least: Tom Brady, Troy Brown and David Patten or Kyle Orton, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
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