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Around SBN: Bill Stewart Dead From Apparent Heart Attack

I Just Don't See The Reasoning or Rationale...

I cannot believe that there are people out there who actually believe Jay Cutler, Rex Grossman, and Kyle Orton are comparable. They are most certainly contrastable; Cutler is mobile while Grossman and Orton are not. Or if you like, you can find the contrast between Cutler never having a QB rating below 86.0 in his 3 years in the NFL while Orton and Grossman never have had a QB rating over 79.6 (Orton's rating last year).

I hope to finally put this petty issue to rest. I say petty because, in the end, I really don't believe the media-types and mindless fans actually believe what they are saying. They more than likely just like to argue the counter-point. There are those types in life no matter where you are.

My thesis shall be thus: the more weapons you have on offense, the better your offense will be. I don't mean to wade into the murky waters of bad analogies, but I will if only to make a very general point. Take the NBA's Pheonix Suns of the last few years, before they traded away some of their core pieces. They had multiple weapons on the offensive end; from Nash, Marion, and Stoudemire, to Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa, and Raja Bell. They had so many weapons that they could simply outscore the other team at will on seemingly any given night. Now, moving on from that, I understand there is a defensive team and offensive team in football. All the better, I say to that. Let's look at the weapons the Broncos and Bears will have on offense this coming year.

First of all, I would like to look at the top third or so of the running back and quarter back positions, as I think it will shed some light on this subject.

Here are the quarterbacks in the NFL who had at least 3500 passing yards and 20 TD's. I pick these numbers because it gives you about the top one-third (10) QB's in the NFL.

Drew Brees.... 5,069 passing yards..... 34 passing TD's...... 17 interceptions...... 65.0 passing percentage

Kurt Warner.... 4,583 passing yards..... 30 passing TD's...... 14 interceptions...... 67.1 passing percentage

Jay Cutler ........ 4,526 passing yards..... 25 passing TD's...... 18 interceptions...... 62.3 passing percentage

Aaron Rodgers... 4,038 passing yards... 28 passing TD's.. . 13 interceptions...... 63.6 passing percentage

Phillip Rivers ... 4,009 passing yards.... 34 passing TD's...... 11 interceptions....... 65.3 passing percentage

Peyton Manning... 4,002 passing yards... 27 passing TD's... 12 interceptions...... 66.8 passing percentage

Donovan McNabb... 3,916 passing yards... 23 passing TD's... 11 interceptions... 60.4 passing percentage

Matt Cassell .... 3,693 passing yards.... 21 passing TD's...... 11 interceptions........ 63.4 passing percentage

Chad Pennington ... 3,653 passing TD's... 19* passing TD's.... 7 interceptions..... 67.4 passing percentage

next up would be Brett Favre(3,472 , 22 TD's), Tony Romo(3,448 , 26 TD's), and Eli Manning(3,238 , 21 TD's)

All in all, a pretty great group of quarterbacks. With the exception of Favre, if your team has any of those quarterbacks going into this season, you are not worried about the QB position. There are only a few others out there who would make one's team feel comfortable: Matt Ryan and Ben Roethlisberger are the only other legit examples. After that, you can start poking holes pretty easily in every other QB.

That is your upper echelon of QB's folks. Including Favre, Romo, Eli Manning, Ryan, and Roethlisberger, there are 14 quarterbacks listed. Without Favre, you have 13 top QB's, with maybe 3 tiers. Any team that has one of these QB's has a pretty good weapon on offense.

Now let's look at the top 10 or so running backs last year. I'm going to use the following categories to observe the running backs: rushing yards, average yards per rush, td's and I'm throwing receptions and receiving yards since a lot of running backs are a little more versatile these days. However, because I think that you need a running back who can carry the bulk of your yards rushing, I am going to go from most yards rushing down to about 1100 yards, because that's about 10 or so of the top running backs by total rushing yards. If you disagree, then please let me know which name you would take off of the list. As I did with the QB's, I will note some other stellar running backs who are not on the top list.

Adrian Peterson... 1,760 rushing yards.... 4.8 average... 10 TD's.... 21 receptions... 125 receiving yards - 0 rec. TD's

Michael Turner..... 1,699 rushing yards.... 4.5 average... 17 TD's.... 6 receptions...... 41 rec. yards - 0 rec. TD's

DeAngelo Williams.... 1,515 rush yards.... 5.5 average... 18 TD's... 22 receptions.... 121 rec. yards - 2 rec. TD's

Clinton Portis...... 1,487 rushing yards..... 4.3 average..... 9 TD's.... 28 receptions..... 218 rec. yards - 0 rec. TD's

Thomas Jones.... 1,312 rushing yards.... 4.5 average..... 13 TD's... 36 receptions.... 207 rec. yards - 2 rec. TD's

Steve Slaton........ 1,282 rushing yards..... 4.8 average..... 9 TD's..... 50 receptions.... 377 rec. yards - 1 rec. TD

Matt Forte............. 1,238 rushing yards..... 3.9 average...... 8 TD's..... 63 receptions.... 477 rec. yards - 4 rec. TD's

Chris Johnson..... 1,228 rushing yards.... 4.9 average...... 9 TD's..... 43 receptions.... 260 rec. yards - 1 rec. TD

Ryan Grant........... 1,203 rushing yards..... 3.9 average...... 4 TD's..... 18 receptions.... 116 rec. yards - 1 rec. TD

Ladanian Tomlinson... 1,110 rushing yards... 3.8 average... 11 TD's... 52 receptions... 426 rec. yards - 1 rec. TD

Now, any time you have a running back rushing for 1,100 or more yards, you are pretty set at RB. There are guys like Reggie Bush who, while being great assets on offense, require someone else to get the bulk of, or at least as many carries; you know, the guy that can run between the tackles. This is key in the NFL. No way around that one.

I would say that any running back who was able to carry the ball 200 or more times for their team was the main rusher, with anybody else on the team being more of a role-type running back. Reggie Bush only had 106 rushes for 404 yards. He only played in 10 games! Don't even try and predict what his numbers would have been over 16 games because a key part of being a starting running back in the NFL is being able to take the brunt force for 16 games! In baseball you can't just say a pitcher is better than another pitcher because "if he had pitched 200 innings" his numbers would have been so much better. A huge part of being a starting pitcher in baseball is being able to take on those innings and be an innings eater. Again, kind of an iffy analogy, but I think in its general comparison you can see the point I am making. 

The Bears now have a starting Quarterback and a starting Runningback that fall into the top 12 or so at their respective position. Michael Turner and Matt Ryan are one great duo at runningback and quarterback. Brett Favre and Thomas Jones were a top combo in the league last year. Eli Manning and Brandon Jacobs were also one of the top tandems. Phillip Rivers and LT were as solid as ever. Aaron Rodgers and Ryan Grant were a surprisingly stellar pairing. Marc Bulger and Stephen Jackson were also a pretty good combo. For the most part, those teams did not lose because of their QB/RB play. The Jets imploded and so did the the Broncos. But just as much blame, if not more, could be placed on the paultry defenses. Green Bay certainly had a much better offense than defense. I don't think anyone in GB is screaming to scrap the QB and RB. Nor in San Diego are they clamoring for a better offense. As far as offense goes, those teams had the weapons to win.

Now, I will move on to one more interesting subject: Denver's running game last year. The Broncos averaged more rushing yards per game (116.4 - 12th in the league) than the Bears (104.6 - 24th in the league).

I was shocked when I saw that stat. Denver's running game was supposedly in shambles, and yet they averaged more yards per game than the Bears? So, it occurred to me that the Bears did play more of a "win the field-position battle and don't make too many mistakes" type of game while the Broncos obviously had more of a "just outscore the other team" kind of gameplan. I think as coach in the NFL, or in any sport for that matter, you are going to adjust your style of play based on the types of players you have. You won't see the Pheonix Suns running as much with Shaq on the floor, the same way you are probably not going to run-n-gun with Kyle Orton as your QB. You're also not going to run the ball like crazy if Drew Brees or Peyton Manning are your QB's, which is not to say that you can't have a stellar running game and passing game. But I think you can see the point I am making. So, after seeing the stats on the Broncos' running game and the Bears' running game, I decided to look at the actual running backs on each team.

Denver Broncos, running backs by games played, rushes, yards, and rushing average:

Note: I included every rusher who accumulated 100 or more yards last season for the Broncos.

P.J. Pope - 6 games - 17 rushes - 130 yards - 7.6 rushing average

Andre Hall - 8 games - 25 rushes - 144 yards - 4.1 rushing average

Tatum Bell - 7 games - 44 rushes - 249 yards - 5.7 rushing average

Selvin Young - 8 games - 61 rushes - 303 yards - 5.0 rushing average

Michael Pittman - 8 games - 76 rushes - 320 yards - 4.2 rushing average

Peyton Hillis - 12 games - 68 rushes - 343 yards - 5.0 rushing average

(Jay Cutler - 16 games - 57 rushes - 200 yards - 3.5 rushing average)

I have to say, I did not keep track of the Broncos running game last year, can someone please tell me why they had 7 players who recorded at least 100 rushing yards for them? Did they just have that many injuries? You would think that with 4 players having a 5.0 or better rushing average that one of them would have been able to take hold of the starting spot. I know Denver has loved using multiple runningbacks in the past, but really.... 6 rushers accumulating at least 100 yards and the QB going for 200 as well? And don't say "well Cutler doesn't count, he's a QB" because you wouldn't say it about Vick... 200 yards rushing is 200 yards rushing. Anyhow, I could be the illogical type and say, "well, the Broncos had good WR's and four good RB's and that is why Cutler could stand back and throw the ball and not get sacked very much." Or I could be reasonable and say, "Denver had a Pro Bowl QB and that is why their receivers had success and that is why no matter who they put in the back field they were able to succeed at running the ball." I could also guess that their O-line was pretty decent, if not stellar.

Now let's look at the Bears running backs last year who recorded at least 100 rushing yards:

Note: Please, take your time, this list is a long one!

Matt Forte - 16 games - 316 rushes - 1,238 rushing yards - 3.9 average

Kevin Jones - 11 games - 34 rushes - 109 rushing yards - 3.2 average

Adrian Peterson Lite - 15 games - 20 rushes - 100 rushing yards - 5.0 average

Wow, so if rushing average were everything then the Broncos had 6 ball-carriers better than Matt Forte last year. Not only that, but the Bears third option was better than their starter! Well, good thing rushing average isn't everything or else LaDanian Tomlinson and his 3.8 rushing average last year would have retired.

So, here is my final take on all of this.... you can spit out all of the stats you want, but it really does come down to the eye test; the stats just help support the story at the end of the day. There is no stat for Orton overthrowing Hester by 5-6 yards, or throwing at teh feet of someone on a slant route. Just like there's no real stat for Cutler putting the ball in the hands of the receiver that is 30+ yards down field.

There's no stat that says, "hey guys, look, Forte didn't rush the ball for a high average, but he rushed the ball every game, every Sunday 20-25+ times... he gave stability to the RB position."

All-in-all, my final take is this: you can't just say Greg Olsen and Dez Clark don't count as receivers. You can't say Forte doesn't count as a receiver. Those three right there are a huge part of the receiving game. That doesn't make the Bears passing game a bad one. It does say a bit about the fact that we didn't have too many established, starting WR's last year. Certainly if we had a TO, Randy Moss, or Boldin, the QB would have been throwing more to that WR and thus less to the other three mentioned. But when you take into account, Forte, Hester, Olsen, and Clark and add into that mix guys like Iglesias, Bennett, Rideau, and Knox, you have to come to the conclusion that the offense will not be the weak link of this team next year. I'll even go as far as saying that the Bears have a top 10 offense.

In fact, I like the Bears' offense a heck of a lot more than I like the Broncos' offense. If I were a fan of that team, I would be a bit worried about the offensive situation. But I'm also pretty honest with myself.

Honestly, the Bears defense can only be better than it was last year, in my opinion. The Bears with a so-so offense went 9-7. With the additions on offense, plus a most-likely slightly improved defense at the least, I like the Bears chances of going 11-5. Honestly, I think 13-3ish is achievable depending on the play of the defense.

Take that post how you will. I hope you enjoyed my first post here on the WCG.

Oh, and compare Orton and any of those 6 running backs on Denver to the other combos around the league... If you're a Broncos fan you might start to worry if you are honest with yourself.

This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.

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Haha

Great post man. Usually I don’t read through the really long ones, but yours was a good read. Though I never thought Cutler is comparable to Orton or Grossman, your post convinced even more that there is no comparison there. I think your offense will be very good. I could see it being top 10 but I think for now I would say top 15. I think Cutler, Forte, Hester, Olsen, Clark is a good core, and I think one of your other wr’s will step up this year as well. O and the Broncos had that many rb’s because of injury. Again, good post, I really enjoyed reading it.

by packallday555 on Jul 16, 2009 1:08 AM CDT reply actions  

I understood some of the essence of the

“Cutler will drive you nuts like Grossman did” stuff.

They both have the strong arm and confidence. But Rex drove me nuts because he made the same exact mistake every week.

I watched a few Cutler games while he was in Denver… he made mistakes from over confidence sometimes, but never because he got the “F it, I’m going deep” but “Hell, I can fit the ball there”.

Completely different, IMHO.

Nobody who ever gave his best regretted it. -George Halas

by Allie on Jul 16, 2009 1:53 AM CDT reply actions  

Yup

Not just that…but Grossman’s footwork was just plain clumsy when he was forced out of the pocket…like a very bad imitation of Drew Bledsoe. At least Cutler can throw off his back foot, which will be important against that Vikings D Line.

by MetalGearPeaceWalker on Jul 16, 2009 6:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

When I played I was a triple threat.... Stumble.... Fumble.....Grumble....

by scespy12 on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

RecX1000

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

by propheteer on Jul 16, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Glad you saved that

i’d lost it. :-)

Nobody who ever gave his best regretted it. -George Halas

by Allie on Jul 16, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

There should be a cartoon for the Sex-cannon

Call it You’ve been Rexcked!

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

"We want to create havoc and chaos under an umbrella of discipline, if that makes sense." - Rod Marinelli 7/16/09

by propheteer on Jul 17, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I try to stay up on that.

I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T

by Ditkavsworld on Jul 17, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Way way way

too much is made of stats in the NFL.

The records of the top 5 QB’s on the list?

8-8
9-7
8-8
6-10
8-8

The QB stats for the team with the best record in the NFL last season (Tennessee)?

2,902 Yards 13 TD’s 9 INT’s 58.5 Completition %

Compare that to the Bears:

3,229 Yards 20 TD’s 14 INT’s 57.6 Completition %

Pretty similar stat line.

Their RB’s?

Matt Forte & Chris Johnson are listed right next to each other.

Tennessee won 13 games; the Bears 9. That’s a big difference.

Beyond the stat line, football is about how well you play in all three phases of the game, how many BIG plays you make in clutch situations and how many turnovers and stupid penalties you DON’T make in critical situations.

Cutler isn’t going to be measured by his stat line. He’ll be measured by how many times he uses his great arm and legs in clutch situations to win (or lose) the game.

What’s the enduring image of last years Super Bowl (besides the James Harrison play)?

At the end of the game, on THE crucial drive, Big Ben bouncing off tacklers, scrambling out-of-the pocket, and firing pin point completitions to his receivers.

That’s the essence of NFL football.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 3:50 AM CDT reply actions  

Thank you GeoMak

That’s why I love football. If I wanted to watch a game where the statistically better team always wins then I might as well watch the US Olympic Swimming team vs. the Sudanese Swim Club.

Like Big Ben, I can see Cutler moving around, scrambling away from the Williams Wall…and still having the playmaking ability to throw the rock deep.

by MetalGearPeaceWalker on Jul 16, 2009 5:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think you bothered to read my entire post...

If you had read my entire post, you would see the parts where I talk about Green Bay’s paultry defense, how Green Bay clearly had a much better offense than they did a defense, and how the Bears won’t be losing games because of their RB or QB play. In fact, I even pointed out the Phoenix Suns and how the more weapons they had, the more they could simply outscore the other team. If they lost a game, it was because of something lacking on the defensive end.
You also failed to mention that a Kurt Warner-led Arizona team went to he Super Bowl. Just because the top ten QB’s have good stats doesn’t mean that their team has to have a 500-ish record. Take any of those QB’s and put them on Baltimore, New England, or Indianapolis. The whole premise of my article was that the Bears have solidified the RB and QB positions. Their offense is looking really good. Their record will depend on their defense. I have them going anywhere from 10-6 to 13-3 depending on how well their defense ends up playing. Not once did I say having a good QB guarantees a team a winning record. I even said at the end of the day it comes down to the “eye test” because too much is made of stats.

by Homer-ism101 on Jul 16, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I read the entire post

It was well written. I wasn’t criticizing you personally at all.

I’ve seen sets of stats that make Cutler look average, or below.
And I’ve seen sets of stats that make him look great.

Stats can only take one so far in the game of football.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry...

I’m used to being defensive on message boards. I know peeps like to go after new posters so I just took the defensive role there. I shouldn’t take it so personal.

And yes, I know what you are saying in regards to people using stats to try and make Cutler look pedestrian, which he is not. That’s the main reason I wrote this, and because KC Joyner is out there taking the counterpoint of the argument simply to get hits on his website. I can say that it is most probably working! If there ever was a troll of a sports writer, he is it.

by Homer-ism101 on Jul 16, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not a problem

After I posted I realized that it sounded like an attack on you and it wasn’t meant that way.

Your post was long but well wriiten (otherwise I would’ve stopped halfway).

Besides his huge arm, the thing I like most about Cutler is his ability to bootleg AND throw completitions down the field.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let me introduce you to the stats at footballoutsiders.com

They are the stat gurus, and they compile stats and rankings based on information more microscopic than just plain old yards and TDs.

Their two main categories for statistical rankings: DYAR (Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement), and DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average). The simple version: DYAR means a player with more total value. DVOA means a player with more value per play.

How they rank in QBs 2008:
1. Drew Brees, NO
2. Peyton Manning, IND
3. Phillip Rivers, SD
4. Kurt Warner, AZ
5. Jay Cutler, DEN
21. Kyle Orton

Now, here’s something interesting. Each of the top 4 QBs, have WRs ranked among the top 15.
a. NO, L. Moore = #15
b. IND, R. Wayne = #6, A. Gonzales = #13
c. SD, V. Jackson = #4
d. AZ, L. Fitzgerald = #2, A. Boldin = #9, S. Breaston = #14

But, Jay Cutler’s WRs were ranked #32 (E. Royal) and #42 (B. Marshall). So, the top 4 QBs in the league last year all had the luxury of working with some of the top WRs in the league. Cutler, on the other hand, didn’t have that luxury, yet he still managed to outperform the 36 other QBs below him on the list. Find this guy a top WR, and big things are gonna happen.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions  

It is interesting to note....

“they compile stats and rankings based on information more microscopic than just plain old yards and TDs.”

Well, if you look at the top 6 quarter backs, by passing yards alone, last year, you have:
Drew Brees…. 5,069 passing yards…. 34 passing TD’s…… 17 interceptions…… 65.0 passing percentage

Kurt Warner…. 4,583 passing yards…. 30 passing TD’s…… 14 interceptions…… 67.1 passing percentage

Jay Cutler …….. 4,526 passing yards…. 25 passing TD’s….. 18 interceptions….. 62.3 passing percentage

Aaron Rodgers… 4,038 passing yards… 28 passing TD’s.. . 13 interceptions…. 63.6 passing percentage

Phillip Rivers … 4,009 passing yards…. 34 passing TD’s….. 11 interceptions…. 65.3 passing percentage

Peyton Manning… 4,002 passing yards.. 27 passing TD’s… 12 interceptions…. 66.8 passing percentage

compare that to:
1. Drew Brees, NO
2. Peyton Manning, IND
3. Phillip Rivers, SD
4. Kurt Warner, AZ
5. Jay Cutler, DEN

Looks like that top 5 are in the top 6, with Aaron Rodgers falling in the top 6 as well. Sometimes plain old touchdowns and yards say just as much. Interestingly enough, Kyle Orton was 19th in passing yards, compared to being 21 on that list you gave. If you ask me, it sounds like those stat gurus are going through all of that trouble to come to basically the same conclusion I came to in about 10 minutes worth of time looking at passing yards and touchdowns. I understand that doesn’t work with a QB who played in only 5 games due to injury, and it doesn’t point out what receivers each respective QB is working with, but all-in-all I basically had them ranked the same as those “gurus” in much less time.

by Homer-ism101 on Jul 16, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

The differences can be really big.

For instance, look at your RB rankings, vs their rankings.

Yours:
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Michael Turner
3. DeAngelo Williams
4. Clinton Portis
5. Thomas Jones
6. Steve Slaton
7. Matt Forte
8. Chris Johnson
9. Ryan Grant
10. Ladanian Tomlinson

Footballoutsiders
1. D.Williams CAR
2. B.Jacobs NYG
3. C.Portis WAS
4. D.Ward NYG
5. T.Jones NYJ
6. M.Turner ATL
7. C.Johnson TEN
8. S.Morris NE
9. S.Slaton HOU
10. L.McClain BAL

Matt Forte is ranked #38

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now... go back and look at your QBs

The top 5 QBs are likely to be very similar, because… well, top 5 QB play is a little easier to judge on a 16 game performance. If they’ve stayed healthy, they’ve started all 16 games, and never shared the ball with anyone, so the yards and TDs are going to be among the highest total.

Yours
1. Drew Brees
2. Kurt Warner
3. Jay Cutler
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Phillip Rivers
6. Peyton Manning
7. Donovan McNabb
8. Matt Cassell
9. Chad Pennington
10. Brett Favre
11. Tony Romo
12. Eli Manning

Footballoutsiders
1. D.Brees NO
2. P.Manning IND
3. P.Rivers SD
4. K.Warner ARI
5. J.Cutler DEN
6. C.Pennington MIA
7. M.Ryan ATL
8. D.McNabb PHI
9. E.Manning NYG
10. A.Rodgers GB
11. T.Romo DAL
12. M.Schaub HOU

They have Cassel ranked #17, and Favre ranked #20.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

True, true, true.....

Even at quarterback you can look at some very efficient passers who did not have mind-numbing numbers. But those quarterbacks that didn’t have to throw the ball 4500 yards last season were on more complete teams. Drew Brees and Jay Cutler had to throw the ball as much as they did because their teams relied on them to do so. They didn’t get the ball at mid-field a bunch. So, I think we can draw the conclusion that while Jay Cutler probably won’t eclipse the 4,000 yard mark this season, he should still have great numbers and be more efficient because he won’t have to rely on throwing the ball so much. All-in-all, I think this Bears team has more complete offensive weapons than the Broncos team last year. We have two great pass-catching tight-ends, a young, healthy running back who can catch the ball out of the back-field, and one of the fastest young wide receivers in the NFL. That’s four guys to give the ball to. Denver didn’t have 4 consistent guys to give the ball to last year.

Here’s to hoping our defense and special teams can put Cutler and the boys in some pretty good starting field positions!

by Homer-ism101 on Jul 16, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

And that's what it's all about

It’s not how often you throw the ball, it’s how effective you are when you throw it.

That’s all that matters.

When people (outside of Chicago) talk about the ‘85 Bears, they say ’All Defense/No Offense.’

Nonsense. The Bears were the highest scoring team in the NFC that year.

Yes the defense helped out with field position.
Yes a lot of that was due to the incomparable Walter Payton.

But a HUGE factor was Jim McMahon and his receivers (Gault, McKinnon, Moorehead, Wrightman, Gentry, Payton).

They didn’t pass often but when they did they made a lot of big plays and also, didn’t turn the ball over a lot.

Roughly (and I’m guesstimating here) teams that throw for 300+ yards in a game win something like 30% of the time.

Teams that run for 100+ yards are closer to 60-70%.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look at Steve Breaston @ #14

Breaston was a Kick Returner in 2007 (He did catch eight passes). After 2007 Bryant Johnson left for Free Agency.

To Breaston’s credit, he has said that he worked harder than ever to claim Johnson’s position as the Cards # 3 WR.

How much of Breaston being ranked #14 has to do with a HOF type of QB in Kurt Warner and playing next to two of the best WR’s in the NFL?

Would Breaston be a top WR in Cincinnati? In Buffalo? Tampa Bay?

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Breaston had 77 catches for 1,006 yards last year.

And, he started games in Boldin’s absence. He’s good, and he’ll be a coveted free agent when his time comes up. Yes, being in certain situations helps, as he was on a prolific passing team. But, as those same stats point out, Jay Cutler and Kurt Warner both threw for 4,500 yards. Yet, Cutler WRs are ranked lowly at #32 and #42.

What those gurus are trying to tell us is, if you swapped out Breaston for Royal, or Breaston for Marshall… then Breaston would still be a top 15 WR, and Royal or Marshall would still be ranked low.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

How are they determining that?

That’s what I would like to know.

How are they determining that if they swapped teams, Breaston would be a top 15 WR?

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well... click on the links, and look at the stats they provide for viewing.

Then, you can read detailed explanations for their stats: DYAR (Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement) and DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average).

In a nutshell, the “thesis” they are trying to prove is that Breaston has a much higher value than an average replacement player. And, in the individual case of Breaston, it pretty much argues correct. The guy he replaced, Bryant Johnson, was ranked #53 by footballoutsiders last year with San Fran, and was ranked #70 in 2007 with Arizona as the third WR behind Fitzgerald and Boldin.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

So they aren't saying that he was the 15th

best WR are they?

Cause that I’m not buying.

15th most PRODUCTIVE WR?
That I can buy, given that, again, he was surrounded by guys like Warner, Boldin & Fitzgerald.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's what they are trying to prove with their research.

Also look at the category they call E Yards, marked in red.


Effective Yards, listed in red, translate DVOA into a yards per attempt figure. This provides an easy comparison: in general, players with more Effective Yards than standard yards played better than standard stats would otherwise indicate, while players with fewer Effective Yards than standard yards played worse than standard stats would otherwise indicate. Effective Yards are not the best way to measure total value because they are more dependent on usage than DYAR.

Their #1 ranked WR in 2008 was Andre Johnson. Hard to argue with that. Johnson saw 171 passes come his way. His standard receiving yards were 1,575. And footballoutsiders determined his E Yards were 1,872.

As you look at the list, notice that when you move down, the E yards start to become basically equal to the standard in the middle, and significantly less than the standard as you move lower.

In Brandon Marshall’s individual case, he’s ranked #42 overall, compared to Andre Johnson at #1. Marshall was targeted 181 times, more than any WR in the league least year. Johnson was second in targets with 171. Yet, Marshall only produced 1,265 yards to Johnson’s 1,575. And Marshall’s E Yards were only 1,293 compared to Johnson’s 1,872.

What they are trying to tell us is that along with DYAR and DVOA, Marshall’s standard yards (1,265) compared to E yards (1,293) show us that he didn’t play better than his stats indicate. In fact, he played to closer to an average level. So, if an average WR were targeted an astounding 181 times, they would have similar stats to Brandon Marshall. Another indicator of average play. Johnson, on the other hand, played significantly better than his stats indicated.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to argue with you here.

This much I know.

Last year two comments came out in the Arizona Republic.

1. Larry Fitzgerald basically said that Kurt Warner did more for him that Fitzgerald did for Warner. Maybe he was just being diplomatic but that’s what he said. But it leads into the second comment.

2. Matt Leinart was supposed to start last season but Ken Whisenhunt finally came to his senses and went with Warner.

Mid-way through last season a few players basically said that the biggest difference between Leinart & Warner is that Warner was “better & quicker” at finding the open man and hitting him. That split-second difference is huge in the passing attack.

We all know how great Boldin and Fitzgerald are. Would they have been as great with Leinart in there over Warner? No way.

If Steve Breaston played for the Bears last season and Devin Hester for the Cardinals, how would people judge them?

My guess is that people would judge Breaston a lot lower if he played in Chicago and Hester a lot higher in Arizona.

This is why, to me, the usage of stats has major limitations for football, unlike say, baseball.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

The questions you are asking, are precisely the questions they are trying to answer

Fitzgerald has proven over time to be an excellent WR, and Boldin has proven to be an above average WR… with different QBs throwing them the ball during different seasons… regardless. Footballoutsiders allows you to go back to 1995 to track their stats.

Devin Hester was ranked #64 last season, with below average DVOA (-9.5%), and less E Yards (642), than actual yards (667). He was targeted 92 times, but only caught 57% of those passes. Steve Breaston, in comparison, is ranked #14 and was targeted 113 times, catching 67% of those passes.

What they are trying to prove, is that if you put Hester in Breaston’s place last season on the Cardinals, Hester would have underperformed, compared to Breaston’s stats on the Cardinals.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh... and of course on the flip side.

They are trying to prove that Breaston would have outperformed Hester, if he were on the Bears in 2008, and was targeted 92 times.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's kind of my point

You(FO) say that Hester only caught 57% of his passess while Breaston 67%.

To me it’s kind of a no-brainer.

A) Supporting cast. The supporting cast in Arizona (as far as the passing game) blows away the supporting cast in Chicago

B) Despite all of his criticism, simply put, Hester was the #1 concern of the defense on every play. Everybody in North America knows how dangerous Hester is with the ball in his hands.

Now, the defense may feel that Hester is so crappy that they can defend him with just one man (maybe even their WORST man), but still, they know that Hester is capable of taking it to the house anytime he has the ball in his hands.

Breaston, (unless he was subbing for the injured Boldin) was receiver #3 to any defense.

Any and all double coverages were directd towards Fitzgerald and/or Boldin. Not Breaston.

I just don’t see how anyone can take what Hester did in Chicago (with the Bears offense) try to figure out what he would’ve done in Arizona.

Two totally different offenses and situations.

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

The % of passes caught by WRs

We can review this stat in more detail. But, not with Hester and Breaston, they have such a small sample size. However, veteran WRs tend to average out to their norm. The better you are, the greater % you catch.

Let’s take a guy this year’s #1: Andre Johnson. He’s been the #1 WR on his team for a long time now, and is proving to be one of the game’s best. Despite being the #1, being the focus of the defense, and playing with average or below average QBs, Johnson continues to catch an incredible % of the passes throw his way.

Andre Johnson
67% in ’08
70% in ’07
63% in ’06

Terrell Owens, on the other hand, despite all his talent, hype, and accolades… routinely catches less than 60%. TO = 50% in ‘08, 57% in ’07, and 56% in ’06. When he has the ball in his hands, he makes great things happen. However, he drops the ball too many times… discuss this with a Cowboy fan and they’ll voice their frustration. Andre Johnson is a better WR.

My point to that is, put Hester on the Cardinals in Breaston’s place, and he’ll likely still catch less than 60%, simply because that’s the type of talent he is.

Don’t discount Breaston… both Breaston and Hester were prolific return men in college. But, Breaston left Michigan with 156 receptions… 5th all-time in Wolverine history, and there have been a bunch of pretty good WRs at Michigan: Braylon Edwards, David Terrell, Amani Toomer, Derrick Alexander, Desmond Howard, Anthony Carter.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not discounting Breaston at all

I live in Phoenix and it was refreshing to hear an athlete say (like he did) that he worked his ass off in the offseason cause he wanted Johnson’s job as the #3 WR.

I see it like this. Let’s say Aramis Ramirez gets traded from the Cubs to the Cardinals.

To me, projecting how he’ll do with St. Louis is somewhat reasonable. He’ll still be facing the same pitchers (except now he’ll be facing Cub’s pitchers and not Cardinal pitchers).

There would be some differences. Batting clean-up, if the Cardinals 1-2-3 hitters got on base more than the Cubs 1-2-3, then Ramirez might be expected to drive in more runs.

But baseball is static. It’s basically just the hitter vs. the pitcher.

Football is extremely fluid and dynamic.

Who knows? Hester is far less talented than guys like Boldin & Fitzgerald but faster and more dynamic in the open field.

Who’s to say that if Hester was teamed with Warner, Boldin and Fitzgerald that Hester might not have put up some huge numbers.

Having a prolific QB like Warner and surrounded by two WR’s that would be the focus of the defense might have opened up the field for Hester in Arizona in ways that never would have happened in Chicago (at least before Cutler).

There’s no way to know, of course, but who knows?

by GeoMak on Jul 16, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well... yes, it's very difficult to map these things out.

But… alas, that’s what the gurus at FO are trying to do. They’re trying to prove to you just how valuable an individual skill player is, over the average replacement.

Baseball staticians are doing the same thing these days with new ratings like UZR.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

And... to that point

Rashied Davis should be released. His below average production can be replaced with virtually anyone. So, you night as well let someone else have the opportunity.

 In ‘08, Davis caught 52%. In ’07, he caught 55%, and in ’06, he only caught 39%. He was a former Arena Football DB/WR… turned into a WR at the NFL level. He progressed, but he’s not good enough. It wouldn’t be too difficult to find a better WR.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

nice post!

The Broncos had some injuries at RB last year…

I think the most telling difference in the two rushing attacks is that 8th defender in the box the Bears had to account for on nearly every running down.

How often do you think the Denver opposition payed mind to the run game with Cutler under center? Rarely? Never?

This is a big reason why I think Forte will have a monster year. Teams can’t load up and sell out to stop him this year.

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jul 16, 2009 10:25 AM CDT reply actions  

another difference in the two rushing attacks

was the fact that denver’s o-line was one of the best in the league.
but youre right, with an upgraded o-line and qb, i think matt forte will be huge this year as well

by Puppet on Jul 16, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

drafting Clady really solidified their line… hopefully Williams can have a similar impact

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jul 16, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

HAHAHAHA!! What the F&@# man!

what’s up with your avatar?

Remember, remember, the 13th of September…

Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...

by ifuwannacrownem on Jul 16, 2009 1:07 PM CDT reply actions  

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