Judge blocks doping suspensions of 2 Vikings
by tomh115 on Jul 9, 2009 11:23 AM CDT
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MINNEAPOLIS (AP)—A judge has blocked NFL plans to suspend Minnesota Vikings players Kevin Williams(notes) and Pat Williams(notes).
Hennepin County District Judge Gary Larson on Thursday granted the players’ motion for a temporary restraining order. That keeps the NFL from suspending them until their case is decided.
That may be a while. The judge also scheduled a hearing for July 22 on whether he should put state court proceedings on hold while a federal appeals court considers other issues in the case.
The defensive tackles tested positive last summer for a banned diuretic that can mask the presence of steroids, though they’ve never been accused of taking steroids.
The NFL had intended to enforce the Williamses’ four-game suspensions at the start of the upcoming season.
Hopefully they will wait until week 10 when the vikings have 4 conference games (2 divisional lions then bears), 3 of which being home games to make the decision to ban these guys for their usage of banned substances. I would love to see the lions beat them and I think it is pretty obvious what prospect of 4 conference losses and the divisional losses would do. Go Bears!
This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.
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Hopefully, 37 year old Pat Williams will be broken down by week 10 anyway.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I hope this blows up in their face.
I’m all for due process and what not, but it seems to me these guys have been trying to run this out as long as possible. Accept your punishment fellas you broke the rules. But if it waiting screws them against teams they should beat I’m all for it.
I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T
JUST TAKE IT!
Take your punishment already!
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jul 9, 2009 11:36 AM CDT reply actions
I hope they skate.
So the Vikings have no excuses when we torch them.
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
From now on
Can we always spell Vikings as Viqueens?
As long as we can refer to the bears as the teddy bears
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Why would we do that? This is a Bears website
Plus, everyone loves a good cuddly teddy bear. Nobody likes a Viqueen.
I wanna backhand the judge and scream
I’M HANK WILLIAMS JR. BITCH!!!
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Jul 9, 2009 3:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I wonder how we'd feel...
if the shoe were on the other foot and it was Urlacher and Briggs…
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
We didn't pitch a fit
When Jim Miller got four games for his “dietary supliment”
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on Jul 9, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
No arguement there,
However, he was the best option at QB we had at that point. I would have been equal to losing Orton last year for four games.
The fact is they had a substance in there bodies that is banned by the league. The NFL should take the same stance as the IOC and say that the athlete is responsible for anything they put into their system, and face the penalties when banned substances are found.
This should not be something that should be governed by the US legal system, but by the NFL and the NFLPA. The substance is lot illegal, but is banned by the league. This is a league issue and not one of the courts. The NFL banned substace policy is well known and I believe is part of the current CBA, so there should be no reason that players should feel the need to fight the ruling of the discipline committee.
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
The only thing is though...
the ingredients weren’t listed on the labels, and the NFL didn’t tell the players that the substance was banned.
I’m not defending them, but this was a huge clustercrap by the league… and now it has to be decided by an outside agency to mediate.
After all of this is over, you can bet your arse that the entire policy and procedure part of the banned substance policy will be rewritten.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
But the same thing happenen with Miller
The ingredient that was banned was not on the label, that’s what caused his problems…
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on Jul 9, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Also,
You can’t tell me that at this level, these players and their handlers don’t know every ingredient or substance that goes into their bodies.
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on Jul 9, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey, I'm not saying that they aren't at fault...
But honestly, if I were a player, i wouldn’t send an over the counter dietary suppliment to a chemist to break down every ingredient. And even if they had, they would not have known about the banned ingredient, because the NFL did not release that ingredient on the banned list!
/ Hate the Vikes
// Piss on the Williamses
/// The system was different in the Jim Miller situation, but I see where you are coming from.
//// Want the Vikes at full strength… just to see if we can whip ’em.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
Then your stupid...
if I’m making millions of dollars a year, and the only thing I have to worry about is not putting banned substances in my body, then I’m sending my shampoo to chemists. And your wrong, as far as I understood it from NFL Live, the ingredient was on the banned substance list it just wasn’t on the label.
Also, I don’t understand how this is different from the Miller situation, except that the Williams’s are actually good.
Lol... maybe I should put my old sig back up.
1- If you are going to call someone stupid, you may first want to learn the difference in “your” and “you’re”.
2- I may very well not have all of the info on the situation, but unless something has changed, the banned ingredient was not relayed by the NFL. The “hotline” that is available for the players is widely known as being ineffective.
3- You would send your shampoo to a chemist? C’mon, not if it were over the counter shampoo.
4- The Miller thing was different because there were an entirely different set of policies and procedures back then to deal with it. the current rules and regulations were largely overhauled in 2001 and again in 2004.
5- This was not your best work on this blog. You’re better than this.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
Hilarious reply - #5 is money.
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
wtf?
5- This was not your best work on this blog. You’re better than this.
Refers to #1
One of my many pet hates about native English speakers…..
"They tried to take out the quarterback, and if they managed that, they tried to take out the backup." - Bears SB20 TE Emery Moorehead, on the mentality of *that* defense
personal attacks...
arent the issue.
the issue is they broke a rule and they need to suffer the consequences. If i were a player i would know what supplements are banned and what ones arent. worst case scenario you go buy a banned one and compare it to what you want to take..or you contact the leage and say hey i wanna take this it shares x ingredients with xyz banned substance is this ok and i want it in writing that its ok. As i am not a football player but i would assume that most take some supplement pills and they have figured out one way or another which ones arent banned..better yet we are talking about veterans not rookies..they should know better.
it would be great to run all over them at full strength..but i would love to see other teams beat the snot out of the viqueens (it has a certain fun appeal to it)
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
You don't really pay attention do you?
The Williams’ took a product called starcaps, which is a diuretic, which is used mostly for weight loss and can also be used to “flush” a system. Starcaps did not list a certain banned ingredient on the box. Not only that, but the league knew Starcaps had that certain ingredient in it, but failed to place Starcaps on the list of banned supplements.
Well couldn’t they just call the hotline and ask? It has been repeated by many NFL players that no one answers the phone at the hotline. You are forced to leave a message, which does not get returned.
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe you should do your research....
Quality control
Ullman said it was not necessarily a failing of quality control for contaminated batches more than two-years-old to go undetected.
"Look at how long melamine was in the food supply for before it was detected," he said. "Unless you are specifically testing for an ingredient you are not going to find it. There was no need to be screening for bumetanide. It wasn’t a sports product, it was a weight loss product for women."
However the National Football League said it had warned front officers, trainers and players unions in December 2006 about the supplements and had added Balanced Health to its list of prohibited dietary supplement companies.
At least one the NFL players banned because of consuming StarCaps was suing Balanced Health, and the case was due to be heard early in 2009.
Bumetanide was found in the StarCaps dietary supplements at a level 0.8mg per capsule.
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Regulation/StarCaps-diuretic-recall-expanded
it is against the law to not label what ingredients are in a product, per FDA. This has been a law since before the nfl was created. they were warned now they pay up.
dont do the crime if you cant do the time
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
It's not against the law to not list ingredients in dietary supplements
They don’t need FDA approval.
That’s why most dietary supplements are a joke. They don’t need testing or any of that.
even if they don't bother to learn what is what
you would think it’d be pretty easy to show your team’s nutritional people every and any little supplement you are using to get their ok. At least when there is a big f-up and a suspension is looming the player can point the finger at the careless team instead of being (maybe unfairly)treated as just another imbecile.
I’m with you guys, I want the 2009 offense to march up and down Soldier Field against these purple pantywearers at full strength. From watching a 2007 line which included Metcalf and Miller to what we have now and having potential to be a very above average O line…it’s a feeling not unlike climbing the rope back in gym class.
by reefermadness3 on Jul 9, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Just to clarify for you:
It’s not that the substance was banned, it was the ingredient in the substance which is banned.
Personally, I take umbrage with the league using StarCaps as a trap against players, when they knew that the banned ingredient was in the substance, even though it was not listed. And when the players call the hotline and never get a response, how are they supposed to know?
Legally, Minnesota law prevents a employer from taking action against employees for consuming any non-regulated drugs. (I’d have to look up the exact wording, and I don’t care to do that right now, but you’re more than welcome to.) This means that the NFL’s actions against the Williams were illegal under state law, which is why while the other players suspensions have gone through, theirs have not.
Finally, if they get suspended for the first four games, I don’t really mind. Browns, Lions, Niners, Packers. Could use them for the Packers, but wouldn’t mind them getting an extra four weeks of rest over that period so they’ll be fresh in the late season.
When you go to somebody's house, you don't crap on their floor. Being a fan of one team does NOT give you license to be a dick to fans of another.
hmmm
Legally, Minnesota law prevents a employer from taking action against employees for consuming any non-regulated drugs. (I’d have to look up the exact wording, and I don’t care to do that right now, but you’re more than welcome to.) This means that the NFL’s actions against the Williams were illegal under state law, which is why while the other players suspensions have gone through, theirs have not.
If it is in there contract papers in the fine print i believe it supersedes state law. we arent talking about rookies they knew better. they knew not to take something on the banned substance, whether it was an ingredient or not. Dietitians could have been consulted.
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
There were a number of claims preempted by Federal law
But two claims that were state specific as far as consumer protection that were not preempted.
Except...
The NFL and the Hotline constantly warned to stay away from all such products. If they started saying “this product does contain a banned substance” the player just moves to another such product. So they gave the general warning that “all dietary supplement products may contain a banned substance” as a cover all.
they also said
to not take pills from the manufacture of starcaps..6 players out of the whole league did…well they just didnt listen like the rest now did they
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
Masking Agents
It’s the same thing Manny Ramirez was suspended for. Masking agents. I wonder why he didn’t utilize the same lawyer the Williams brothers are represented by. I can assure you at some point this season their fat asses will sit out those 4 games.
Not quite
ManRam was caught using a womans hormone. Not a diuretic
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions
It All Serves The Same Purpose.
These players in Professional sports take these substances for 1 reason. To pass the sceening process for taking illegal substances. A duretic passes the fuids out of the body at a quicker pace to hide the steriods. Face it PurplePeopleeaters, the Williams brothers are a couple of steroid freaks and are cheaters. The gig is up. That’s why Professional sports are banning ALL masking agents. So these cheaters can’t continue to cheat and circumvent the system.
Wow.
Generlizing much? Fact is, we don’t know if these things that you make blatant accusations about are true or not. But nice to see you have it all figured out.
If it were so black and white, it would not be at the place it is now.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
Generalizing?
I don’t think so GeaxBears. My opinion is backed up by years of study from the Olympic committee, to M.L.B., to N.F.L. As the steroid era is phased out in levels of sports, the second phase will be the masking agents. I will go ond record right now with the following statement. The Williams brothers will not be near as effective in 2009 as they were in 2008. The Vikings will be gashed with their run Defense this year. Once this becomes apparent, I will no longer have to defend myself against the critic’s.
When you make a statement like this:
the Williams brothers are a couple of steroid freaks and are cheaters
That is indeed a generalization an unfounded accusation. No matter what you have spent years of studying, there is no way in the world you could know that for sure, and there is no way you can back that up.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
That's True GeauxBears
I can back up they violated the policy in place though. So they will serve their 4 game suspension just like Manny Ramirez served his 50 gams suspension in M.L.B. It is irrelavent whether or not they used the steroids. They used a banned substance. End of story.
Highly doubt
that Kevin Williams’ play will be deemed ineffective this year. He’s one of the best at his position, and has a duel threat similar to our own Tommie Harris. A simple weight loss supplement won’t change his performance one bit. Pat may suffer a slip of some sorts, but not because of whatever he took; it will have more to do with his age.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
Oh boy
You say that you’ve studied this problem and thusly formed your opinion about it. That statement actually pisses me off. People saying stupid crap like that takes away from the academics who are ACTUALLY performing REAL studies. If you’ve studied this phenomenon, explain to me how you came to your opinion. What evidence did you use?
Second, way to flip your position. You go from saying they’re “steroid freaks and cheaters” to admitting GB was right in his statement.
Look, I don’t like the Williams boys either and I (personally) think they’re in the wrong. But come on….use some rational, thought-out logic.
I'M A MAN! I'M 23!
What I'm Saying...............
What I’m saying is I believe, just my opinion, that the Williama were taking steroids. I never stated I could prove it. What is a fact is that the substance they were taking are:
1. Containing a banned substance
2. Is a substance commenly used to mask the use of steroids.
So yes, GeauxBears is right that I can’t PROVE they took steroids. I don’t agree with GeauxBears that the Williams have any ground to stand on because of their ignorance. Which there seems to be a lot of in some of these comments.
I never said they had ground to stand on because of their ignorance.
I said the league dropped the ball in their procedure.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
New Procedure
Being this procedure was just recently implemented, it’s not surprising some rogue players thought they found a loophole. I have written hundreds of procedures and work instructions. They almost always have revision and addendums to them after they are initially launched.
well, isn't it? Not saying it right to point the finger, but isn't it obvious?
The NFL gets a free pass where performance enhancing drugs are concerned. Yet if Kevin and Pat Williams were baseball players or olympic sprinters, they wouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt.
Even if they were not aware that the supplements had a masking agent for steroids, they put themselves in a situation that makes them look bad.
Let’s look at the facts: the league did not have starcaps as a banned substance. BUT, the Players Association, did have Bumetanide as a banned substance. Players are notified to carefully go over the content of each supplement they are taking.
Now tell me this. Do you think it’s fair for the NFL to monitor the content of every supplement an NFL player might possibly ingest, and to keep the players informed of any content that might be harmful or illegal? If The FDA can’t do it regularly, what makes you think the NFL can?
All four of the players claim they were taking them to lose weight. this is the first time I’m hearing that any of those guys wanted to drop weight. If we know that Israel Idonije, who’s widely unknown to the rest of the leagues fans, wanted to lose weight and gain weight, why didn’t we hear about top NFL players wanting to do the same?
the bottom line is They should’ve known what they were putting in their body, and should not be given the sympathy song. And the fact they are trying to contend this in court makes them look even more guilty in my book.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Jul 10, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with you for the most part.
It’s like they say: Regardless of whether you knew the rule, you still are accountable if you break it. This is truly a mess, and the bigger picture is that the league should have been more prepared than they were.
It’s all good to have a policy for things, but like with any other organization, there has to be an effective procedure to enforce it. Yes, the Williamses broke a rule, but the NFL also dropped the ball. I completely respect Roger Goodell and what he is doing for the game, but this is one situation where he came out guns a’ blazing when he should have been more meticulous.
You can’t shoot, then aim. It has to be the other way around.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
Well...
Both of the Williams have weight limits in their contracts, meaning that by a certain point in time in mini-camp, they need to be below that weight or lose money. So yeah, they want to drop weight.
And Bumetanide was not listed on the ingredients for the supplement that they were taking.
I think that if the NFL discovers that a product has one of their banned substances on it, yes they owe it to their players to inform them that it is in the product.
Keep in mind, I see this as risking the health of the players. After having one player die during training camp due to heat stroke, I feel that the league knowing this substance was in Star Caps willingly risked the lives of their players in order to create a trap situation. And that to me is completely unacceptable.
When you go to somebody's house, you don't crap on their floor. Being a fan of one team does NOT give you license to be a dick to fans of another.
by Robert Rence on Jul 10, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
You are right. They could be steroid freaks and cheaters
On the other hand, they could be cutting weight, since they are DTs and it is in their contract that they must make a certain weight. That is what a diuretic is used for btw. Either way, we will never know.
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Cheating?
Their union contract, collectively bargained by their players’ association and the NFL is set up in a way that both sides can avoid as much responsibility as possible. The union doesn’t trust the NFL and the NFL doesn’t trust the union so it’s set up in such a way to make the biggest hassle problem that could be avoided.
But the NFL doesn’t want to deal with having to sift through every substance and make a deterimination. So they ban substances and then make warnings about other general types of products. The union doesn’t want to have to deal with the same thing so they try to claim reliance on the NFL’s list. But the ultimate final statement in the agreement that all the parties reached is that the players are ultimately responsible for what they put in their bodies. They have to make sure that every ingredient is ok per the policy.
Which explains the nice hair and perky... ummmmmm....
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jul 10, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
These comments aren’t all quite as bad as I expected them to be. Not as much slander as I anticipated. :D
I just want this situation done with. If we’re going to lose them, I’d rather it be at the beginning of the season, during the easiest part of the schedule. I really don’t want to face the Bears without them.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jul 9, 2009 11:12 PM CDT reply actions
yeah
wouldn’t wanna lose em around the time Favre’s arm starts falling off…
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Jul 9, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
At least if it falls off Chilly might actually replace him. Otherwise Favre will be in there even if he’s got a 0/10 TD/INT ratio.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jul 10, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the most important fact is...
that the league has compiled an enormous, comprehensive list of APPROVED dietary/medicinal supplements.
It is made painfully clear to all players that if they stray from that list, they’re on their own.
The Willliamseseseses made that choice—now they need to live with it and accept the consequences like grown men.
The approved list is about as far as the league can be expected to go in terms liability—they are NOT the ones responsible for keeping banned substances out of the players’ bloodstreams,, the PLAYERS are, and rightfully so.
The Hotline nonsense, etc—that’s just a courtesy extended by the league, it’s not a RIGHT bestowed upon the players.
Short of issuing a bold-face lie to the players, the league can’t be held responsible for any information (or lack thereof) that players have about particular products.
You make a choice (take a RISK), you live with it.
Straying from the approved list was that risk.
I, too
see the hold-up for these suspensions as a GOOD thing…it increases the likelihood that they’ll have to be served later in the season.
As others have said, Minny’s schedule (on paper, at least) looks like cake for the first quarter….so I think, with or without the Williams Walri, if the Vikes aren’t AT LEAST 3-1 by that point, I think they’ll be lucky to finish the season at .500
That end stretch (Cincy, Carolina, Bears and Giants) will be no picnic (yes, I think Cincy will be good this year, given a healthy Palmer and a lot of off-season moves/upgrades…I’ll even go out on a limb and say they’re a surprise contender for the division!!)
These suspensions are going to be upheld
Having read the federal case that recently dismissed several of the claims (it’s my job to read and summarize these cases and I happened to pull this one), the players’ claims have no merit.
As Amishbear said above, the CBA is explicit in its terms that the players make the decision of what to put in their body and they are ultimitely responsible for whatever is found there. Even though the NFL likely knew that this product did contain a banned product, the NFL warned many many times to stay away from similar type products for the very reason that not every ingredient is listed. When called, the Hotline said stay away because it could contain. But they took them anyway.
The case lives on because the federal court sent the state claims back to state court when he dismissed all the federal claims as without merit.
Linky link to new developments
NFL released a statement talking about the delay in the Williams’ case(s).
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
That's very interesting.
That may end up coming back and biting them in the rear.
LSU Tigers Baseball... NCAA National Champions- 2009.
Hopefully
they prolong the process more and are suspended during the crucial November games.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
Why?
Brett would lose those games anyway.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Jul 10, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I hate myself for agreeing with this. But I’m going to hate Favre for losing those games even more.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jul 10, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't miss them at the 11/28 dome game
but I really hope they are at full strength when we beat them on Monday night at Soldier Field. It would be a nice end to a long stretch of Bears vs Favre futility (subtracting the last few years of course) when #4 gets a (finally) career-ending but not debilitating injury courtesy of #55 in the 3rd quarter. Hopefully this imagined win will clinch the division as well.
by reefermadness3 on Jul 10, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
What the hell is wrong with that judge?
I’m sure there are a helluva lot more criminal problems to be dealt with in a state court, than whether or not to fat as*es took a banned substance. The NFL should make it simple for their players here goes:
Want to take vitamins, have a Flintstone chewable
In pain from an injury, take some Aleve
Need to lose weight, push your fat a*s away from the table, and get on a treadmill
Don’t take any banned substances period or you will be suspended!
There that should make it simple enough for even the most brain dead person to understand!
by touchdown bears on Jul 10, 2009 6:45 PM CDT reply actions
You are right
Professional athletes should just take a flinstone vitamin, aleve, and simply stop eating and work out. Apparently that is all a person needs to do in order to play in the NFL. Maybe I should try it. Might try out for the Bears. I’m sure they need all the help they can get at WR! Hahaha (just a joke ppl, don’t get your panties in a bunch! :)
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure why you are replying to my comment
Doesn’t make any sense. Or am I missing something? I wouldn’t doubt it. Lol
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jul 10, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I was going with your joke of making fun of those statements
He also implied they shouldn’t be in court, a constitutional right.
Does anyone else find it odd that the judge who ruled in favor of 2 Vikings D linemen
is named “Gary Larson”….the name of one of famed “Purple People Eaters” defensive tackles? I wonder if there is any relation there.
One of my favs
I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T
by Ditkavsworld on Jul 10, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet you know someone who fits in this category.
I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T
by Ditkavsworld on Jul 11, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol
I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T
by Ditkavsworld on Jul 11, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
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