Does anyone else think that Lovie gets to much credit for Ron Riveras defense
by njddgd on Aug 17, 2009 3:07 PM CDT
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PrintWell I started looking up the stats after I read everything that Lovie smith has done since he has been coach of the Chicago Bears. http://www.chicagobears.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=1. So I wanted to take a closer look. of how it really looks. Here are the defensive stats the years with Ron Rivera. And the stats with the Lovie and Bobby show. This is not including playoffs since Lovie hasn't been alone
Ron Rivera Bears team Lovie Smiths Bears team
Wins/losses 29W-19L 16W- 16L
Sacks per yr avg 38.6 34.5
Tackles 4 loss per yr 112.6 83
Forced fumbles per yr 22.6 16
Int's per season 21.6 19
defensive TDs 3.3 1
Opp yrds per gm avg 304.3 345
Opp rushing yds per gm 109.5 108.5
Opp pass yds per gm 194.6 236.5
points per seaon avg 262.6 349
This might have been covered by someone else. But i got really curious after Lovie smith said that letting Ron go has been good for him and us. Its probably gonna be a long season with Lovie's cover 2. And Windy I know i'm gonna hear from you so let me know what I got wrong so i can correct it.
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Ron Riveria ran Lovies D
I don’t remember where I saw it, but the 06 Bears ran the Cover 2 more than the last two seasons. The Cover 2/Tampa 2 that Lovie implemented. I think Riveria was jobbed too, but the defense he was calling plays for wasn’t of his design.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2009 4:15 PM CDT reply actions
thought it was more cover 1 they ran?
Either way, there was definitely a shift in defensive sets after Ron was kicked out.
"If God had wanted man to play soccer, He wouldn't have given us arms" - Ditka
Cover-2
It’s because the defensive line was at its peak, unlike the past two seasons. RR didn’t have to blitz to get pressure, thus the better overall passing numbers.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
The difference isn't Rivera or Turner
The difference is Tommie Harris being an absolutely dominating player in ’04, ’05, and ’06. And being pretty much an injured dud in ’07 and ’08.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Aug 17, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Ogunleye and Vasher as well
They were more productive players too.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
yeah but we still made it threw the playoffs
Without tommie. I think the difference is more Ron was honest with his players and Lovie sugar coats everything. plus we didn’t play 10 yards off the line.
by njddgd on Aug 18, 2009 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bingo!
There is nothing wrong with cover-2 if you have a d-line that can apply pressure, something the d-line has been unable to do the last two seasons.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
its harder to get pressure
if the DBs are 10 yards off the line and the QB can keep throwing quick passes.
i agree
the bend not break, all the way down the field, will eat us alive this year. press coverage!
(i know in preseason they won’t adjust that)
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 18, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
bottom line
cover-2 can work if you have the right personnel, as the Bears proved a few years ago, and several other teams proved before that. Can other systems work? Of course, but there is not an inherent problem with cover-2, it can work.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem being
this year, is will it work with our personnel this year?
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 18, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
i think our personnel is good enough
It just needs to be put in the right play calling. Cause our defense looked faster in the preseason game than it did last year
If healthy, yes, I do
What would you prefer they do for a defensive philosophy?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Get a lineman
who can stay Healthy, especially if you are going to run the Cover/Tampa -2. “hoping” that Harris is healthy, won’t win us games, not with our defensive scheme.
EVERYTHING relies on his play at the line. without that, we will surely get scorched in passing D again. which will once again relegate us to the non playoff contender again.
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 18, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not as if they have not been drafting DLs
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
changing the subject
who do you want as free safety?
Good question
Can Chris Harris still be an option?
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 19, 2009 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions
none of the above?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 19, 2009 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions
have a coach who will
Get knee deep in their a$$ for missing assignments. If we can’t press play 5 yds off the line instead of ten. But honestly i dunno But i do think we still have the talent and depth in some spots for a great defensive year
Cause and effect
We’re not getting pressure from the front 4, so we have to blitz. Because we have to blitz, our CBs cannot jam and release at the line of scrimmage like they are designed to, because the coverage zone they are releasing to is now vacant… because the LB or safety is blitzing the QB.
See how it works now?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
i see
how it doesnt work, if we continue to blitz, or mug the line
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 18, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
The CBs can’t jam and funnel the WR to the middle coverage zone, if the LB or safety who is responsible for that zone is blitzing the QB. So, instead, they have to play soft, and cover a bigger zone.
The slants and underneath quick stuff is supposed to be in the zone of the outside LBs, with the middle LB dropping deeper into his zone. But, if a LB is blitzing… he’s vacating his zone, and guys have to rotate or cover larger zones to compensate.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
well i hope harris isn't the key
To the season. Cause I don’t think his knee will hold up, he is our next mike brown :(
Without pressure, our D is doomed to repeat last year.
We need a DT to command double teams, to give us one-on-one match-ups for the other 3 D-Lineman. If Harris isn’t healthy, he’s not gonna command the double. Someone has to step up and achieve that. Hopefully Marinelli can make that happen.
That should be the main focus of our attention on the pre-season games. We’re not game-planning here, and we’re not going to give away our new wrinkles and adjustments. So, watch the D-Line and see if they apply pressure straight up…. that’s pretty basic.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
And I'll add...
When our second string is in, we better see Jarron Gilbert, Marcus Harrison or Henry Melton dominate the opposition.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Gilbert
better be a monster this year
I would debate you, but that would only lead to me being dragged away in handcuffs...
by BearNecessities on Aug 18, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
i believe havin
Tillman and bowman back will help the line have more time.
They're playing zone defense...
So, it’s a little different… it’s not like they are covering man-to-man, and will force a lot of coverage sacks. It all starts up front with pressure from the front 4.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
dam it sackman
i’m trying to find something besides tommie to save our season lol. we’re screwed
We managed to luckily go 9-7 last year
with these problems on defense.
Add Cutler and Pace… and hope the D-Line performs marginally better… and I think we’ll improve our record.
So… there’s what you’re lookin for:)
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
i want the GB game to get here
but at the same time I dont want to be disappointed. I know preseason don’t mean anything but that was the taste i got in that game.
agreed
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Harris is the key
because there is no one else who can be as disruptive in the front four.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 18, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I think there is more to it than just those #'s.
Like SackMan said above, Harris has not played to his potential the past couple of years. Plus our NT position hasn’t been as strong either. The Bears haven’t gotten as good of play from that position since Keith Traylor, Ted Washington, or (hate him if you will) Tank Johnson all departed. Those guys all really commanded double teams and gobbled up an O-line.
Also the Tampa-2 hybrid has been around for a while now and more teams have experience game planning for it.
That and other injuries make it hard to compare contrast the differences between Rivera and Lovie. I do like the way Rivera coaches though.
I think there is more to it than just those #'s.
Like SackMan said above, Harris has not played to his potential the past couple of years. Plus our NT position hasn’t been as strong either. The Bears haven’t gotten as good of play from that position since Keith Traylor, Ted Washington, or (hate him if you will) Tank Johnson all departed. Those guys all really commanded double teams and gobbled up an O-line.
Also the Tampa-2 hybrid has been around for a while now and more teams have experience game planning for it.
That and other injuries make it hard to compare contrast the differences between Rivera and Lovie. I do like the way Rivera coaches though.
The biggest difference, in my opinion, is the aggressiveness
that Rivera has over Lovie. While injuries are a fact of life in the NFL, as other people in this thread have pointed out, the overall attitude of the players is different now than when Rivera was calling the defensive signals. Lovie has more of a bend-not-break mentality, although he does a very good job in emphasizing turnovers, whereas Rivera seemed to attack the opposing offenses rather than wait and react.
Riviera
rarely blitzed, the defense was healthier so the Cover 2 was much more effective, the basic philosophy hasn’t changed except last year under Babbich they blitzed a lot. They are still a 1 gap attacking defense, that employs a Cover 2 in many passing situations. The Bears don’t teach the “read and react” which you see more in a 2 gap control defense.
Health is the key, as has been pointed out already. Harris, Brown, Urlacher, Briggs, among others have been dinged up the last couple years.
If the players are healthy this year all will be good!
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 18, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
100% Correct njddgd
I have felt this way since Ron Rivera was ran out of town. It was very obvious to me Lovie did not want to share the spotlight. Now the spotlight is on Lovie’s a$$ and we will soon find out what results it produces. We have seen what Rivera did for San Diego’s Defense last year when he took over. We also suffered through his replacement Bob Babich. I love your post and it really cements any doubts in my mind in the Ron Rivera theory before and after.
Sorry, but I'm gonna have to question the accuracy of this research
The W-L records are incorrect. That’s an obvious error for me to detect. Since the other stats have to be compiled and averaged, I do not know if they are correct.
Bears Franchise History
2008 NFL Chicago Bears 9 7
2007 NFL Chicago Bears 7 9
2006 NFL Chicago Bears* 13 3
2005 NFL Chicago Bears* 11 5
2004 NFL Chicago Bears 5 11
Rivera’s regular season W-L record is 29 – 19
Without Rivera, Lovie is 16 – 16
I’m not going to go through all the stats, but I suspect this has errors.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
rivera was only there for the 05 06 season right?
If that is correct than the stats are right. if i’m wrong let me know I’ll redue them
nope
he came in with lovie in 2004 lovie hired him from phillys staff his rookie season along with that bastard off coordinator terry shea
by Bear Lovin 21 on Aug 19, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
you were right
I looked it up and changed the numbers
Thanks for correcting it!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
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