Don't Baby These Players
by GeoMak on Aug 6, 2009 7:36 PM CDT
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PrintCause it makes me sick. About working them ‘too hard’ in camp.
Are you kidding me?
The incomparable Walter Payton made 650 K in 1985. For some of today’s players, that's a ONE week game check (out of sixteen). Some two weeks. Prices haven't risen that much in 25 years.
Cost of a new home in 1985: $100,800. A gallon of gas? ($1.20) A gallon of milk? ($2.26)
(Hell, Jason McKie made more in 2008 than what Walter made back then). Jason McKie should never make more than the greatest Bear of them all, no matter what century he plays in).
These guys are making a ton of money to play the game of football. Don’t baby them about ‘working too hard.’
It's disgusting.
BTW: In the Donte Stallworth case, teammate Braylon Edwards spent $3,443 at the club the club where they were at, including $1,500 on Perrier-Jouet Rose champagne and $695 on Grey Goose vodka.
But the game has changed GeoMak. Don't you know that? (Yeah. I do. They make too much money now and many (certainly not all by a long shot,) are way too soft.
Ever notice how, when some of these guys cash a lottery size signing bonus paycheck, that their game tails off?
I have.
Lendale White, in a contract year, just dropped 30 pounds by not chugging tequila anymore. I'll give the guy credit for honesty but, are you kidding me? Was chugging tequila part of your workout routine?
Pathetic.
Toughness involves both physical toughness and mental toughness. Vince Lombardi toughened up his players both physically and mentally when he took over the sadack Packers. He had to. They sucked.
He turned them into a dynasty, in large part, because of the way he ‘toughened’ up his players. He was an accomplished offensive mind in his day and that too was a factor, but toughness came first.
What’s Bob Brenly say about baseball? "You can always hustle. You might be having a tough time at the plate or in the field, but you can always hustle your ass off."
Same thing with being both physically and mentally tough in football. That’s just attitude.
In his first team meeting, Lombardi said "Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it because nothing is perfect, But we are going to relentlessly chase it because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely in being just good."
Then he went out and rode them like dogs (he closed the country club at camp).
Phil Simms has been playing and broadcasting football for almost 35 years. As a broadcaster he spends most of his time watching tape and talking to players and coaches. You may or may not like him, but all he knows is football.
In Super Bowl XXI, Simms set SB records for consecutive completions (10), completion percentage (88%) and QB rating (150.9)
Simms, in his book written in 2004 (not in 1984), says this:
"If I had to cite the one factor that determines the winner in the NFL, it would be the team that is winning the physical battle."
"An old coach of mine once said, ‘It just comes down to which teams big guys are going to beat up the other team’s big guys to give the small guys a chance to have success.’"
"As much as we all like to talk about what wins and loses in football, how much the game has changed, how much time coaches invest in drawing up all those wonderful plays, it still just comes down to this: Which team is hitting the other one harder? Twenty years from now, that’s still going to determine who is going to win football games."
"As a QB, I knew when my line was winning the physical battle without even having to think about it. The space I had in which to throw the football told me everything. . . Interceptions thrown by a QB almost always result from a lack of time."
Anyone that watched the 2006 Bears Super Bowl (not the ‘85 Bears) saw one thing:
The Bear defensive line being manhandled by the supposedly finesse, indoor, warm weather, Indianapolis Colt offensive line. Had a lot to do with the Bears giving up 191 yards of rushing (almost double their total in the regular season) and just one sack.
There is no substitute for physical and mental toughness in the NFL, and that starts every year in camp.
BTW: Injuries? Please. They happen in the NFL. Dan Marino started 145 consecutive games before he tore his achilles tendon in 1993. Did he get hit by a huge lineman? Not really. He wasn't touched. It happened while planting his right foot (something he'd done a million times before) as he was making a ten yard completion.
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not really playing devil’s advocate but wasn’t there a whole lot more bodies in training camp back then, i.e. a lot more than the 80 they allow now? maybe one small reason they don’t punish each other as much. Doubtful though. Also, I would guess the main reason is that since today’s game is such a ginormous moneymaker that suffering a couple of serious injuries to star players even before preseason starts could negatively impact that team’s overall financial picture.
Anyways I agree with you for the most part, reminds me of something Buddy Ryan once said – Intelligence and toughness are the two most important qualities to have as a football player. Stupidity and cowardice get you beat every time (paraphrasing).
I don't know how many bodies they had back then
And yes, a coach can work his team too hard. Bill Walsh admiited that he (uncharacteristically) worked his team to hard during the two week layoff preceding their 1987 playoff game against Minnesota.
They lost and the players and Walsh himself cited his practice schedule (and overconfidence) as a reason for the loss.
The reason I brought this up the other day was this: Forget training camp. During the season the ’85 Bears practiced as hard as anyone in the NFL ever has.
Practices were grudge matches between the offense and the defense (Ditka & Ryan).
Doug Plank talks about, how, if there was any penetration into the backfield by the defense, Mike Ditka would say: “The next time that guy comes through the line, cut his ass. . . . As soon as Buddy would here that, he’d say, ’Ok, were sending everybody on the next play.”
Reporter Don Pierson told Bears GM Jim Finks that he should charge people to watch to practice grudge matches . . . they were that good.
That was all year long in practice. End result? Almost no injuries and total domination (by both sides of the line).
If that part of Bear history offends some people . . . Oh well.
(Kudos to your Ryan comment. 100% accurate).
There's more than one way
to skin a cat.
I bet seeing Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy competing for the Lombardi trophy really made your head spin.
I am all for figuring out the most effective way of doing things (I’ve done it professionally for going on 10 years now), but I don’t think it is a far-fetched idea to think that there can be different paths taken to achieve a certain goal.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec (wreck) comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
Nah
there’s only one way! The True Warrior Method ©!
DO YOUR RESEARCH AND APPLY SOME LOGIC!
by Allie on Aug 6, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Bravo.
The True Warrior Method ©!
There is no way that you shouldn’t get credit for this brilliance. I mean throwing up the quote is just awesome but to throw the copyright onto it is just genius. I AM STANDING AND APPLAUDING!!!!! WRECK FOR YOU!!
I'm teaching fools some basic rules.- MR.T
Allie
You making mocking comments and nonsensical ones (like every time . . . ) are fine.
And also a little childish.
If you have something intelligent to say, in opposition to my comments, then feel free to say it.
Really.
I wrote a long post.
Anything specific (and intelligent) to say that you disagree with?
I don't know how intelligent it is
but I do have something to add to this:
But the game has changed GeoMak. Don’t you know that? (Yeah. I do. They make too much money now and many (certainly not all by a long shot,) are way too soft.
Its not just the money that has changed. Its the time. There used to be a true off season. There isn’t now. Most guys kill themselves staying in shape year round, getting better. There is not “off” time.
Working your guys hard, which we have been doing this year with 6 straight days of practices in full pads, is perfectly fine. But it is not the only way.
Dungy was routinely trounced for not running a tough camp… sure was tough enough to get the job done against us as you quote so well. Did he baby his players then?
Hustle is great… but sometimes you as a coach need to protect your guys. Usually from themselves. Encouraging them to slow down and do it right, not burn themselves out. Thats coaching too…
Yeah
There used to be a ‘true offseason’ in the 60’s (and before). That’s when players had to work a Second Job, in order to pay the bills (insurance agent, auto salesman, etc?).
Football has been a ‘year round’ game since before the dreaded 80’s (as in the ’85 Bears).
Most guys ‘kill themselves staying in shape?’
You can be in the greatest shape in the world. You can run and lift weights all day every day. That has nothing to do with hitting. There’s NO substitute for hitting.
No player works on hitting in the offseason.
Dungy? Great guy. Good coach. Look at his team (the incomparable Peyton Manning and maybe the best all around talent evaluator in Bill Polian).
Then look at his playoff record. Not good. Not by a long shot.
He underachieved greatly as a HC. The Colts were just like the Atlanta Braves.
Made it to the playoffs a lot. Only won it all once. Got killed many other times.
(his first playoff game was a 41-0 defeat——in 2005 his Colts became the first team in NFL history to start out 13-0 and NOT make the playoffs).
What does EVERYBODY always say? The QB is the most important position in football, right? Dungy inherited one of the best ever in Peyton Manning.
Huge, huge advantage Dungy. Along with a bunch of other great players. The fact is that Tony Dungy was fired in Tampa Bay because he wasn’t demanding enough with his players. Especially his offense. (Tampa Bay, of course, won the Super Bowl the year after Dungy left).
Warren Sapp himself said that (right after he said the he LOVED Dungy). It pained him to criticize his old coach . . .but he was being honest.
Using Tony Dungy, in this context, really isn’t a good example.
I'll just put this here
The Bear defensive line being manhandled by the supposedly finesse, indoor, warm weather, Indianapolis Colt offensive line. Had a lot to do with the Bears giving up 191 yards of rushing (almost double their total in the regular season) and just one sack.
You continue to make no sense.
I thought it was very intelligent
and very funny.
Enjoy!
Sure there is
Bill Walsh was a great example of that.
Dungy & Smith. Two of the most talented rosters in the league. Nobody hits on more first rounders than Bill Polian.
Colts: One of the greatest QB’s in NFL history.
Bears. Maybe the greatest return man in NFL history.
One of them had to win.
There's also this thing
called a happy medium. A coach can still be tough, run a tight ship, and still be successful.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
john jurkovich
has beat this horse as well for years. he also credited the 49ers with instituting the softer camp. the 49ers that won super bowls. i have no way to verify what he said was true, as i know of no book written about the 49ers training camps.
bob brenly is a terrible person to quote.
The 49ers were an aberration
Walsh designed an innovative system based on short precise passing patterns. Walsh was more of a teacher as coach.
Walsh didn’t win because of his ‘soft practices.’ He won because of the genius of his system. That’s essentially the deal there.
While the defense was physical and usually top 5 or 10, the offense was a finesse offense that required constant repetition through practice.
he didn't lose because of them either
so i won’t be worrying much about camp.
He didn't lose because of them
Sure. When you have two HOF QB’s, a HOF WR and a HC with a unique system that coaches have trouble figuring out and defending, you can get away with it.
I don’t see that in Chicago.
GeoMak, you are a true throwback
I am currently a college football player. I have been through all sorts of different summer camps. I’ve been to ones where the coaches made us WR’s do Oklahoma drills on each other.I’ve been to ones where no one was allowed to hit (It was at one of my HS’s, not enough players to be on both sides of the ball).
The thing that separates the good teams from the bad ones = TALENT. I was on a team that hit like wrecking balls and was rewarded for taking players out of games. I was also on a team that taught technique rather than brute force. The common denominator in which teams were good and which were bad was talent.
The teams that hit harder do obtain a psychological edge, getting into people’s heads. But I can tell you having a ’roided up freak show that only wants to take your head off is easier to get past than someone who has more talent than you.
I understand what you are saying Wennington,
But when you’re talking about the NFL, the descrepancy in talent levels is much, much less than at the high school or college level. At that level, it becomes much more about who’s willing to put in the work, and then work some more. I’m not saying it has to be the conditions Geo is calling for (though a big part of me would love to see a return to that kind of ball), just that it becomes more about preparation, conditioning, and coaching.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
But there is a talent discrepancy
would you say the Rams or Lions are as good as the Patriots or even the Bears? Only so much is scheming.
And personally, I think the game now could not possibly go back to the way it was played in the 50’s or 60’s. Guys now are too fast and too strong. They would absolutely destroy their careers before they even got to the NFL.
No, there are definitely teams that are more talented than others.
What I’m saying is the difference between the teams and between players themselves is not nearly as drastic as at the lower levels. Even the worst teams are capable of turning things around in a relatively short length of time as we’ve seen season after season, and vice-versa. you’ve got teams that go from worst to first, and you’ve got the annual Super Bowl hangover syndrome. Teams don’t typically add or lose that many key players in one season to make such a huge difference. Quite often it comes down to coaching, to how hard they prepare for the season, and how they prepare week to week.
When you look at college ball, you have teams that quite possibly could be significantly better at every single position (or close to it) than their opponents. Your power-house teams like Florida, USC, Oklahoma, etc. are so far and away better top-to-bottom than many of their opponents that it’s almost not fair. That’s why you have so many more blow-outs in college than in the pros.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
Wennington
I agree with you about talent (although I believe that it’s spread more evenly throughout the league).
I am not talking about playing football 50’s or 60’s style.
Here’s what I am talking about.
The Cowboys were considered to be one of the most talented teams in the league last season. They missed the playoffs.
The Giants won the SB in 2007 (beating the Cowboys along the way) and made the playoffs last year.
Big, big difference to me?
Wade Phillips———-mentally and physically a weak HC.
Tom Coughlin———-his team is disciplined and tough.
Tom Coughlin gets more out of his players than Wade Phillips.
I would disagree with your sentiment
I would argue that there is more talent up and down the roster on the Patriots than on the Lions or Rams (as much as it pains me to say it). True work in the off-season helps. And I also believe a tequila-less diet is bad for you, so what do i know?
And while it’s always fun to reminisce to back when Coke was a nickel and politicians weren’t corrupt, football was nowhere near as entertaining. With how fast and strong and freakishly athletic today’s players are, their bodies couldn’t last through college, let alone the NFL. Personally, I would rather see players running around at breakneck speed flying around the field and making plays that make me TiVo a few times, rather than the old mantra of three yards and a cloud of dirt. Which up until April was the Bears entire offensive playbook :)
lol When was this?
fun to reminisce to back when… politicians weren’t corrupt
Was there a year or two in some ancient time that I’ve not yet read about?
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Aug 7, 2009 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i thought the same thing
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
I Just Have One Question
GeoMak, do you often talk to yourself in the third person and then type out your thoughts? How many of you are in there? I mean like 2 or 3 or perhaps like 10 people?
Actually, I just THINK
about what I’m going to say and then write it out.
The operative word there is think.
I don't think this whole subject is necessarily about "toughness"...
The examples that have been given about the successful teams , both past and present, aren’t as much about working players harder as much as they’re about holding players accountable. That’s where, in my opinion, Lovie has fallen down during his tenure. The training camps are just a symbol of what seems to be his attitude of not wanting to get his players upset. This team always seems soft in crunch time because they know they’ll never be called on the carpet or reprimanded in any way. Training camps have always set the tone for the players to know that if they worked hard and smart they would be rewarded (there would be flexibility on curfews back in the Lombardi area or additional days off for veterans who EARNED it) but if they didn’t get in shape or made mistakes over and over again, it didn’t matter who you were, you paid the price.
That accountability is what makes great teams come through in the 4th quarter or when a playoff spot is on the line. “Working hard” and “toughening” players are just ways to make players more accountable. There are those rare players like Payton, Hampton, Butkus, Singletary, and some others who have that work ethic and accountability even without a coach having to push them, but as a group every team needs their leader to let them know that taking the easy way out is not acceptable. This is football and you need to be physically tough, there isn’t any player who reaches the NFL level that doesn’t know that or hasn’t displayed it to some point, but the accountability is something that many of them haven’t had to show because coaches, parents, and fans have given these special athletes a pass for most of their lives based strictly on their talent.
Sorry for getting on a soapbox, but I really think that’s the bottom line on this whole discussion.
by BearFan611 on Aug 7, 2009 8:01 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
good post
Great coaches get the most out of their players. How they do it varies greatly, there is no magic formula.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
I consider that (not holding players accountable) ‘mental toughness.’
Wade Phillips is a perfect example. Last years Cowboys were #1 & #2 in turnovers and penalties.
They are kind of undisciplined.
To me, that’s somewhat a sign of mental weakness
The HC isn’t tough enough on his players cause he’s too easy going and it shows up on the field.
wait a sec
aren’t you the one babying these players, seeing that you think they need a swift kick in the ass to motivate them? comare that to me, who thinks as grown men who seek a rich contract, they should be able to motivate themselves.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
Entitlement - Cedric Benson
Benson is a classic example to me, not of a mature grown man, but of a guy who thought he was ‘The Man’ and acted like it should all me given to him (fame, money, starting job, ect).
Didn’t quite understand that you have to earn it.
very true
now that he is fighting for a career he had to preform..if he gets a nice contract he will likely revert to the lazy asshat we all learned to hate.
Bring back our honey bears...sick and tired of hearing about the dallas cowboy cheerleaders and the bars they go work at when they quit. cold weather + cheerleaders in skimpy outfits = lots of fun
And Was Given The Starting Job
And Jones was run out of town. This after taking his team to the Super Bowl. Talk about entitlement!
Simms
“If I had to cite the one factor that determines the winner in the NFL, it would be the team that is winning the physical battle.”
Only if talent is equal between the two competing teams. Talent alone won’t win you ballgames, but if both teams are playing “physical” then the team with more of it will win the majority of the time.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
How can anyone quantify if the talent is equal?
You can’t.
Steve Mariucci said it best before the draft: The talent level is pretty evenly divided throught the league, except at the QB position.
There are some extemes. Teams like the Patriots and Steelers are at the upper end of the talent level.
Teams like the Rams & Lions the bottom end.
But for the most part (excluding the QB) most teams are somewhat similar. The Bears & the Vikings?
The Packers & the Saints? The The Cardinals & the Panthers?
All those teams have strong spots and weak spots.
Ever wonder why teams like the Patriots and Colts almost never miss on first round draft picks?
Are they geniuses at spotting talent? Maybe. But a bigger reason is that the new player comes to an established, well coached team.
Those same players might not fare too well in Detroit and St. Lous.
Same player. Same ‘talent.’ They might thrive in one place and dive in another.
Conflicting points here
First you say this:
The talent level is pretty evenly divided throught the league, except at the QB position.
Then this:
But a bigger reason is that the new player comes to an established, well coached team.
You’re right, Steve’s right, but this second statement completely contradicts the first one. The Colts and Pats are consistently good not because of their systems (cause most teams run different variants of a few systems/schemes), but because of their elite QBs. Tell me, do you really believe the Bears SB team in ’06 was much different than the Colts or Pats SB teams minus the QB?
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
How does the second contradict the first?
The Patriots are great because:
1. They have a great QB (as Mariucci said, about 1/3 of the teams have an excellent /great QB).
2. Bill Belichick is the best pire coach in the NFL. He excells at finding a teams weakness and exploiting it.
3. They have been so succesful for so long that they have maybe the most solid core in the NFL
That’s whay they are able to take chances on ‘malcontents’ like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss.
Any new player comes to a new England team that has one of the two best QB’s in the league, the consensus best HC in the league and a solid team with few holes.
That’s a big advantage.
No, I don’t think that, player for player, the Bears were much different than the Pats and Colts except for the QB (obviously, it’s not even Rex’s fault that he’s not Peyton or Tom. Few are.
And the HC. I think Bill belichick is a much better HC than either Lovie or Dungy
It seemed conflicted
because you support (I do as well) Mariucci’s claim that an elite or upper-tier QB usually makes the difference between winning and losing, but also believe a draftee will be a better player on those teams with an elite QB. My argument is that an elite QB covers up a lot of misgivings during the course of a game whether or not a young player is being properly developed on an established, well-coached team. I just believe it to be a moot point because a guy like Tony Ugoh benefits so much from P. Manning getting rid of the ball in 2.8 seconds.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
Furthermore
That “new” player coming into a great situation will play well no matter what team or system he’s on. You do realize there are many, many, many good/great players that play on crummy teams. I won’t name any names cause the list is endless.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
I saw it, up close and personal, with Thomas Jones in Arizona.
Argue with me all you want. When the Cards bypassed Brian Urlacher to draft Thomas Jones, Jones went to one of the worst teams in the NFL. The Cardinals, in their first 17 years in the desert, had exactly TWO 1,000 yard rushers. Two!
That’s pathetic. Jones went to a crappy organization (constant losers, bad O-Line, soft coaches, etc).
And in Arizona Jones was a crappy player. He then went to a good TB team and a better Bear team and was a Pro-Bowl player.
Did Jones learn more about running the football, after he left Arizona?
Not likely.
Some players will excell no matter what. But if you’re a RB and go to a crappy team with a crappy line, you are very likely to struggle big-time (unless your name is Walter Payton).
Jones was never really given a fair shot in AZ, nor Tampa(and the 2003 Bucs were a horrible team, BTW)
he was the feature back for a short time in AZ, but didn’t live up to his first round status. He became a better player in Chicago because the emphasis on the running game allowed him to hone in on his skills.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh God.
Dude. I live here. I know.
Jones went to a team that fired it’s HC (Vince Tobin) and replaced him with Dave McGinnis.
They were 3-13 in Jones’s rookie season and 12-20 in his next two in Phoenix.
As a HC, Dave McGinnis was a great cheerleader. When the Cards fired him in 2003, people were in tears. The loved Dave McGinnis. They hated to see him fired (but NOBODY argued against it. He was a crappy HC).
Jones didn’t live up to his first round status because, in large part, he was on a horrible team with, even worse a horrible O-Line.
I’m truly sorry that you have trouble following this.
don't start with your bullshit man. You could live on Mars for all i care, it doesn't make you more knowledgeable.
Jones didn’t live up to expectations in AZ because he was always injured. it was the same thing with the Bears for some of ’04 and ’05.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
You're right (LOL)
and the fact that he played on one of the worst teams in the NFL (for decades) had NOTHING to do with it. Nothing.
(You amuse me)!
Nothing?
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW: (Ifuwanna)
Jones played in 30 (out of 32) games in his first two seasons.
He started 9 games in 2002 before a season ending injury.
That’s 39 out of his first 41 games.
And he was always injured?
Huh?
uh... yuh
why you think he was always splitting carries with pittman?
Huh?
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
What is it (with you) and (parenthesis)(?)
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
"(are you serious man)?"
I’m pretty sure this (even without the parenthesis) wouldn’t classify as a run-on (or nonsensical) statement.
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
Easy there.
Or I will turn this into a photo thread! :)
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
Sorry
Turned off my sarcasm font.
I’m just a girl “trying to understand football” so I need to make fun of people to get my message across.
Wow.
Didn’t see Geo’s sexist post before. Just wow.
- Smudgers
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
Me neither
Is this the last of we see of GeoMak? if so…
It’s party time!
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
so, being racist isn't enough for him
now he’s gotta attack the women.
what a piece of garbage.
Nobody rec’d the bible or the declaration of independence. Those turned out swell.
-Ifuwanna
by KtownBear on Aug 7, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
if that is so, then you have failed miserably.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe it is what they do in Arizona? He lives there you know.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Thomas Jones sucked in Arizona for more reasons than just because the Cardinals sucked.
Jones couldn’t even beat out Michael Pittman for the starting job his 1st two years there, in part because he was always dinged up. Then, by year 3 (2002), the Cardinals let Pittman move on, and an injured Jones eventually lost his job to Marcel Shipp, who was outperforming Jones before he was placed on IR anyway.
In 2003, they traded him to Tampa… where… not surprisingly, he failed to beat out Michael Pittman once again for the starting job.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Any commentary about
Jones not becoming a powerhouse RB out of college (ala Adrian Peterson) isn’t disputed.
He went through his growing pains as a player and as a person (which is certainly not uncommon for young players).
What I am saying is that when a player goes to a dysfunctional team, and is a RB going to a team with a crappy line (only two 1,000- yard rushers in 17 years) then THAT also has a lot to do with it.
Football’s a team game. Unless you are as great as a Walter Payton (literally a one man offense), your success is going to depend greatly on your team (unit).
Steve Young? Four wins in TB. SB & HOF in SF.
Kinda simple,really.
There's no disputing that the Cardinals sucked... and Adrian Peterson wouldn't be too happy running the ball behind those lines.
But, what I’m saying is that Jones didn’t help his own cause. He was the #7 pick in the draft, and couldn’t even win the starting job, until they essentially gave it to him, when they let Pittman leave via FA.
Then, he failed to hold down the job on his own without stiff competition, and later got traded to Tampa, where he became Pittman’s backup once again.
In some ways, ironically, his first few years mirror Benson’s first few years.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Right
They mirror Benson’s.
Here’s the difference. The Bears team that drafted benson was far more talented and stable than the Cardinals team that drafted Jones.
Sometimes coaches don’t do enough to get a guy ready to play. That’s where coaching (and teaching come in).
Benson didn’t have that problem. He went to a storied, RB oriented franchise with good coaches.
Jones went to a clusterF++K in Phoenix.
They most certainly do mirror eachother.
Jones: #7 overall pick gets drafted to be the future of the franchise.
Year 1: he loses the starting job battle vs incumbent Michael Pittman, and starts only 4 games to Pittman’s 11… while pampering nagging injuries
Year 2: he still can’t beat Pittman out for the job, and gets only 2 starts to Pittman’s 14.
Year 3: the Cardinals let Pittman walk away as a FA, to allow 1st round pick Thomas Jones to become the starter. Jones performs poorly and loses carries to backup Marcel Shipp, before getting hurt and missing the final 6 games of the year.
After year 3: he’s no longer with the team that drafted him.
Benson: #4 overall pick gets drafted to be the future of the franchise.
Year 1: he loses the starting job battle vs incumbent Thomas Jones, and starts only 1 game to Jones’ 15… while pampering nagging injuries
Year 2: he still can’t beat Jones out for the job, and gets 0 starts
Year 3: the Bears trade Jones away, to allow 1st round pick Cedric Benson to become the starter. Benson performs poorly and loses carries to backup Adrian Peterson, before getting hurt and missing the final 5 games of the year.
After year 3: he’s no longer with the team that drafted him.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
The first year Jones came to the Bears, he was nothing to write home about...
it was when the Bears drafted Benson with the 4th pick that Jones picked up his game. He’s one of those players, in my opinion, who only plays hard when he’s threatened by another player.
It was when we got rid of the worst Offensive Coordinator in Bears history
That Thomas Jones started to perform well… in year 2. Benson wasn’t here until year 3.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Exactly
Ron Turners Zone Blocking scheme helped Jones utilize his quikness.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually... Benson did come in year 2. I forgot.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Exactly, that's why the Bears wasted the 4th overall pick on Benson
because they didn’t that much of Jones after his first year with them.
yeah, but
there is no denying that the bears did waste a 4th round pick on Benson. I can’t Agree that Jones stepped up only because Benson was drafted. A lot of credit has to go to Ron Turner implementing that Zone blocking scheme.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
In hindsight, absolutely, it was a waste but
at the time the prevailing sentiment among fans was it was a great idea and we were all hoping we might luck out and have the next Walter or Gale….what were we smoking? As far as Jones stepping up only because of Benson, I’m sure a different system had some effect but he went down on the first hit all the time his first year, after Benson was on the team he shook off that first defender more often.
Jones averaged
3.3 Y/A in 2000 with the Cards
3.4 in 2001
3.7 in 2002
4.6 in 2003 (with Tampa)
4.0 in 2004 (with the Bears)
4.2 in 2005
4.1 in 2006
Total Averages: 3.4 with Arizona, 4.6 Tampa Bay, 4.1 Bears
Jones performed well in Tampa when he was given a chance.
He fumbled a couple times which got him into Gruden’s doghouse (which didn’t usually take much), so he wasn’t given much of a shot. I was thrilled when Chicago picked him up after seeing him down here.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
You're talking about the Cards
one of the worst football franchises in NFL history.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
Belichick canceled the Pats afternoon session today
And, he’s given the team a scheduled day off on Saturday. How dare he! What kind of camp is he running over there? Club Med?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
He's trained his team so well
that he could probably cancel TC and still be better than half the teams in the league.
Allie,
I dealt with Geo’s comment. Easy on fueling the fire.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec (wreck) comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
Check yer email!!!!!!!!
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec (wreck) comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
Hey... can you edit my comment above on Jones and Benson?
So, it’s all in one comment. I accidentally hit post instead of preview. I wish there were post-editing functions here.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Can't edit a comment... can only delete.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec (wreck) comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
Oh well... if you delete it I can just re-post it.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Go for it.
Be nice. Flag comments that you think are offensive. Use the "reply" button. Drink plenty of water. Compliment others. Rec (wreck) comments and posts you like. Don't call people names. If you don't like someone's comment, attack the comment and not the commentor. Learn the difference in your/you're, then/than, to/too. Exercise. Relax. Stretch often. Find good in the world.
Thanks dude!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Actually, Sack
that Information is so intriguing, I think you should make a Fan Post out of it.
Camp ifuwanna, we hold you in our heart...
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 7, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
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