Amazing Stat.
by Seejay on Jan 19, 2010 8:42 PM CST
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Today on 670 the Score Mulley and Hanley said this.
Since Lovie has arrived he has drafted 27 defensive players in the 5 drafts he has been a part of. (6th coming up)
Now you think "27 players? Really thats alot! I bet most are starters on this team." Do you really want to know how many are starters?
12! Good Joke
10? No
8. No way Jose
6? Closer..
The answer is FOUR. 4 freaking players. Now time to guess who they are.
Tommie Harris- a gimp.
Afalava-A rookie who misses tackles.
Kevin Payne-takes horrible angles and is a straight-line player.
Zack Bowman-Isn't the greatest pass cover guy but he has a chance.
Now you think "Wait a second three of these players are from recent drafts" Correct! Payne-2007 draft, Afalava-2009 draft. Bowman-2008 Draft. Tommie Harris-2004 Draft.
Woah Wait Now! We haven't had I'm sure there are more starters. You are right. Two are playing for other teams. McGowan for Patriots and Harris for Panthers.
So we have not had a continued GOOD defensive starter from the 2005 Draft to 2009 Draft? Yeah. Angelo sucks.
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Wow that's crazy.
One of the biggest problems that i personally have with Lovie and JA is their ability to judge talent. Neither of them seem to have the basic necessity to do that. Doesn’t make me feel any better about their responsibility to bring in good coaches either. Reguardless, lets just hope for the best.
I will trade you three pretzel's, two bologna sandwiches, and one Lovie Smith for your pudding.
by Bears fan 4-ever!!! on Jan 19, 2010 10:09 PM CST reply actions
If you want to know what's wrong with this team
Look no further than the offseason of 2007. You have the extended contracts of Angelo and Lovie, the firing of Ron Rivera, one of the most unproductive and worse drafts in Bears history, the addition of Adam Archuleta, which led to the eventual trade of Chris Harris for a 5th round pick. As a result they’ve been looking for and drafting a new safety almost every year since.
That offseason of overconfidence and cockiness by this front office and the favoritism of former players by Lovie has led to the product we see today and is the REAL reason why both of those guys should have been let go. Their egos are the reason this team is in trouble.
Disagree and agree
Zack Bowman-Isn’t the greatest pass cover guy but he has a chance.
I fully believe Lovie had a leash on him cause he played so conservatively, and still managed to pick off a team-leading 6 passes.
Agree part- it’s rediculous that they’ve made a debacle of the safety position the past three + years.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
I'd like to see some comparisions here...
What do other teams have starting on their defense out of their own drafts?
Maybe 4 out of 11 is the norm?
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 20, 2010 9:02 AM CST reply actions
not to mention...
5 out of 11 current starters on offense. Four starting for other teams.
And to defense, isn’t Manning technically the starting nickel? And Urlacher, Briggs, Ogun, Brown, Tillman were all here prior. There’s only so many positions you can fill.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
I was curious so I looked up a few teams
TEAM – defensive starters they drafted or signed as a rookie FA
Eagles – 7
Pittsburgh – 6
New Orleans – 4
New England – 7
Chiefs – 5
Washington – 5
Denver – 2
Packers – 9
Jets – 6
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 20, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Drafted over the same time period?
Because, we have 8 out of 11 (9 if you count Manning), going by the overall drafted numbers.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
I went with starters acquired by draft or as a FA rookie by their teams on my list
But it looks like Seejay was only loking at Bears acquired during Lovies time.
I agree with you, how can you criticize a team for not replacing the guys that were drafted prior to the Angelo regime taking over? They were still picked by the Bears.
Are we really to criticize Lovie and Angelo for not drafting a starting middle linebacker in their time in Chicago?
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 20, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Yup.
And actually Seejay only went as far as Lovie Smith (2003). Angelo (2001) would include Briggs, Tillman and Brown bringing the total up to 7 (8 for Manning). That’s a higher percentage than majority of teams on the list.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Alex
is who I was talking about. But he was actually drafted in ’02. I thought he was drafted later than that.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
sorry.
that post was correct, I take back my take back.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
And another thing...
these “stats” are a prime example of why people should take what the media says with a grain of salt. Make an educated opinion by putting in the time and doing the research, not just by listening to what you hear on the Score.
> this is not a shot a Seejay… just at people who let the media think for them.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Zacck Bowman had 6 INT's
he’s good.
You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes.
by ifuwannacrownem on Jan 20, 2010 10:52 AM CST reply actions
I thought he had a solid year
He improved as the year progressed, and that’s what you want to see from your young players.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 20, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
At the very least
He was one hell of an improvement over Vasher. He’s got the potential to be a solid cover guy and a great ball-hawk.
"Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking." - Jim McMahon
Thank you, Coach Smith :)
You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes.
by ifuwannacrownem on Jan 22, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
At a minimum it shows he has the potential to be quite good
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 20, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
McGowan
Was an Undrafted FA if I remember correctly but I guess that is a type of drafting.
"My ficas tree could call plays better than Ron Turner." - My Dad
by Sam Householder on Jan 20, 2010 11:47 AM CST reply actions
Kind of a continuation of yesterday's discussion...
But a big part of this is because this organization accumulates 5th and 6th round draft picks (cheaper contracts) while shunning 1st and 2nd round picks. It is not breaking news that the talent in the earlier rounds is much better than that in the later ones. In that sense the stat is a little misleading because we aren’t talking about missing on 1st round picks (don’t get me wrong, they do that aplenty), but not turning 5th and 6th round picks into starters is not really a shocker. Letting 5th and 6th rounders who can actually play like Harris and McGowan is devastating though.
What I would do: trade into the late 2nd or early 3rd round to ensure we get Kam Chancellor; while keeping our early 3rd round pick (currently our first pick) to draft Toby Gerhart. You get better by moving up to draft talented players (THE guy) that fit needs, not by moving back to draft less talented cheaper ones and hoping our nonexistent player development turns them into starters.
What will happen: undrafted Rookie Free Agents here we come.
Chancellor.
With an awesome name like that, I’d do anything to get him.
The only time the Mets win is in the offseason.
THE THING THAT HURTS THE MOST
Is the Fact that Bowman, Payne, and Afalava have only been starters for one year. We haven’t had any draft pciks contribute for a while.
Bowman replaced a draft pick
when he took the job from Vasher, and Mike Bown (another draft pick) was replaced at safety.
Of the week 17 starting defense for the Bears 9 of the 11 starters were initially acquired by the Bears, only Hunter Hillenmeyer (Packer draft pick) and Anthony Adams (FA from San Fran) came from outside.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 20, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
I understand alot of our players were initially acquired..
But The Bears haven’t gotten any good defensive talent in the recent drafts. The Draft is the blood-line for a NFL team. Right now our blood-line is running dry and it is showing by the play on the field.
Did you read any
of the other comments?
We had a good defense. Built from the players we drafted. We currently have seven different starters from our 2003 defense. Two from free agency and five from our drafts. Who else would you have had them replace from those four… Urlacher, Briggs, Brown, Tillman?
Again, 9 out of 11 starters. Look again at the sampling Lester posted above.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Of course I read them.
What happens when Briggs/Urlacher/Tillman/Brown’s play starts to decline? We haven’t gotten any help from the recent drafts. I am saying that Jerry has done a horrible job picking players to fit Lovie’s Defense and players who have talent in general.
All the good teams reload through the draft every year. The Chicago Bears have not done that defensively for the past several years.
I’m not letting the media think for me. Think about it. 4/27 in the past 5 drafts? Thats really bad. It’s common sense. The Draft Picks before that may have been good, but the Bears ARE NOT developing or drafting good talent on the defensive side of the ball.
We didn’t have a good defense this year. Warner/Palmer/Farve/Flacco/Stafford all carved the Bears up.
Good defense
was in reference to our defenses of the past.
Your 4/27 is mis-leading. That’s 4 from this years team only. You continuously leave out players like Vasher who once started. And again, you don’t count Manning, who is the team’s starting nickel.
There’s only 11 positions available. Four were being occupied by other draft picks, Five by draft picks from this time frame. Again, only 11 positions.
I’m really not sure what else to tell you without actually turning into a broken record.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 20, 2010 8:15 PM CST up reply actions
I understand..
that Vasher and Manning were starters once.
But Vasher used to be good and Manning recently has done nothing.
Is Manning even a good nickel? The Fans can’t really tell. Manning never seems to have pass deflections or picks.
Manning should be our kickoff return and thats it.
I know I am leaving out players from previous years. It all goes back to drafting and player development though. They haven’t done anything productive recently. That is why the D is suffering.
4/27 is a bit mis-leading but its true. The NFL is a “what have you done for me lately” league. And 4 players have been starters recently for the Bears. Also they aren’t that good either.
Manning
In four years
1 Sk, 6 INT, 19 PD, 7 FF, 4 FR, 213 Tkl, 52 Ast, 1 Sfty
Not too bad for a player that’s been thrown around from position to position at the coaches will.
I don’t wanna keep going around with you, but I do think that your numbers should reflect how many starters you can put on the field – 4/11 not 4/27. The max it could be is 11/27 – misleading.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 7:21 AM CST up reply actions
Urlacher and Brown not drafted by Angelo and hence NO connection to Lovie.
His point is VERY valid. Between you and Lester this post feels like a Larry Mayer commentary.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
Urlacher, no.
Brown (Alex), yes.
As far as his point being valid, to each his own. I completely disagree, but I’m definitely done debating it.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
I get the point of the post...
but if the guys they drafted can’t beat out the other guys drafted previously is that really a knock on the drafters?
Should we criticize the new Redskin regime if they can’t draft a replacement for their rookie stud Brian Orakpo, since they didn’t draft him?
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 22, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, now I totally get why you two responded to my other post.
I’ve been beating a dead horse again. All points are valid. Everyone’s correct. And neither of you are Lovie Smith apologists. And I’d rather read a smudgers or wiltfong post than Larry any day. And I totally forgot the other Brown. When I think Brown and Bears I think Mike. However, I think Angelo’s draft record sucks starting with him forgetting to mark “compensation” on Warrick Holdman’s RFA in his first year and going down hill from there.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
Ha!
Thanks! And for the record, I think Angelo chould be doing a better job at drafting. Would it kill him to trade up for a guy once in a while!
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 22, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
I like Bowman
Any corner who can get 6 picks, 1 FF and break up 10 passes in Lovie’s current defense is good IMHO…
Of the 11 guys we send out on the field to pretend to defend the pass, I really don’t see Bowman as the weak link!
not the weak link but...
he’s not better than a 6 on a 1-10 scale, 10 being 1st ballot hall of famer. Picks/ints are such a misleading stat for a DB. 6 sounds good, but if he were a 7-8 on that scale, he finishes with 8-9 picks. He droped several more as well, some of which should have been easy catches for a pro and of the ones he did catch, at least 4 were right at him. Also, keep in mind he go burned more than a few times. A CB that wins 50-60% of the times he’s thrown at is good. This guy was probably 35-40% successfull. I can see he becoming the next Vasher. I do think he is better than Nate however. I still think Corey Graham is underratted. He always (60-70%) performs in coverage.
Keep in mind
That he was basically a rookie in 2009. 6 picks for a 5th round pick in his first year starting is pretty impressive.I’ll take a 6/10 given the circumstances.
Roll Tide... National Champs!!!
Lovie Smith doesn't do the drafting ....
That’s funny, nobody picked up on the simple fact that drafting is Angelo’s job ….
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 21, 2010 4:02 AM CST reply actions
I kinda mentioned it above.
Although I think he’s talking more about the player development post-draft.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 7:25 AM CST up reply actions
hub sez
lovie has a lot of say in the draft room
Everybody has a say in the draft room ...
….like everyone ‘has a say’ in the way the country is run. Angelo does the drafting – it’s his primary role. Coaching is taking a big hit this year, and rightfully so. But the players have to admit responsibility for their play this year. How do you beat the Vikings if you’re that bad ? They played hot and cold and that stinks of bad chemistry. Urlacher didn’t help things any, and for a captain that is unacceptable. And a Center cannot be the leader of your offense ….
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 21, 2010 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
But he has a lot of input wouldn't you think
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 21, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
None of our defensive starters
have been good enough to get off the field or win the ball games that matter… so it really doesnt matter who is starting.
4/11 starters or 4/27 starters… how many would start on other teams, and win?
Bowman is serviceable, Afalava is serviceable. all our “stars” will soon be on the decline.
I know we are all looking for the silver lining, but the reality is, we need to rebuild, and without any luck in FA/Draft, it’s gonna be a while before we can honestly… really honestly, think we have a shot.
"Hey, the offensive linemen are the biggest guys on the field, they're bigger than everybody else, and that's what make them the biggest guys on the field." -Madden
by BearNecessities on Jan 21, 2010 7:56 AM CST reply actions
Do you the issue is
talent or development?
Also, factor in that our defense has been extremely banged up the past few years. They were good during our playoff years, hence why we were in the playoffs. Although, they did have some of the same issues then that they have now – they just weren’t as many. It bent, it just didn’t break as often.
I agree, we do need to think about rebuilding. But we have a decent core of young players in Manning, Afalava, Bowman, Payne, Steltz, Harrison, Gilbert, Melton, Williams, Roach, etc. Now we just need to be able to develop them… which takes me back to the original question.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 8:12 AM CST up reply actions
*Do you believe the issue is…
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure what the issues were
i’m starting to think that team chemistry and talent out weighed any coaching. the Bears defense in 05 and 06 really didn’t take any plays off, generating an awful lot of pressure on the QB.
so i would have to wager a guess and say development. most of these players in the NFL all have a great degree of talent.
but getting them in the right system, preventing/treating injuries. watching several other players move on to other teams and flourish really makes ya scratch your head sometimes.
"Hey, the offensive linemen are the biggest guys on the field, they're bigger than everybody else, and that's what make them the biggest guys on the field." -Madden
by BearNecessities on Jan 21, 2010 8:32 AM CST up reply actions
Agree completely.
There was just something about that 05/06 defense – a proverbial swagger. And it was more than just the talent on the roster. They played aggressively, they played like someone insulted their mothers. It wasn’t just one guy making a tackle, it was six or seven blue jerseys attacking the ball carrier every single play. If they got beat (Reggie Bush), they made sure to make up for it.
Injuries have definitely hurt us over the past few years, but you’re right. The chemistry does seem to be a bit off.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 21, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not a coach or GM
but i find it hard sometimes to understand this… because if i played in the NFL, and someone showed me how devastating the 2005-2006 2006-2007 Bears defense was…and then showed this last couple years… I’d cut myself. (from the team, not literally)
"Hey, the offensive linemen are the biggest guys on the field, they're bigger than everybody else, and that's what make them the biggest guys on the field." -Madden
by BearNecessities on Jan 21, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
finaly a smart post
great post Bearnecessities, its about time someone realized its not all about coaching when it comes to a teams w-L rec. Yes it plays a hudge role but at the pro level its more on the players and that includes that teams chemistry. That being said, it is the coaches job to do any and everything he can to help the chemistry. Problem is the coach is trying to bring together over men from 22-35 years olds with millions in their bank accounts and egos the size of our city. Sounds like a tuff job!!
I'm sure it's really tough
however, i’d take a crack at it, for half the pay. and i’d work twice as hard. I Love Chicago, and everything about it…almost. but the point being, i would do everything i could to make this team the best in the NFL.
Welcome to the Bears… come to play, or GTFO, would be the banner above my office.
and i’d hire a half way decent injury team.
"Hey, the offensive linemen are the biggest guys on the field, they're bigger than everybody else, and that's what make them the biggest guys on the field." -Madden
by BearNecessities on Jan 21, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Why does it have to be either/or ?
It’s obviously a combination of the two since Angelo sucks at drafting and Lovie sucks at developing his players …
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:51 AM CST up reply actions
2 things
1.) Bowman isn’t bad but he aint all that. Yea he had 6 picks but that stat is often misleading. I told people this about Vasher when he was known as “the interceptor”. The guy is a tad better than average for a pro. How many picks did he drop & how many of those picks were thrown right at him, ummmm about 3-4.
2.) Our draft hit or miss ratio is about on par with the rest of the league. Every team has a few 1st rd bust a decade, a few hits & some so so picks.
elvis patterson had 6 picks one year
doesn’t mean he was good
I Agree
Lovie Smitth and Jerry Angelo are a couple of ass clowns. However, we are stuck with them. They did do a better job of drafing on the offensive side of the ball. And you left out Hester on your post. He was actually drafted as a Defensive back out of Miami.
What's wrong with Bowman...?
4 guys in the NFL had more interceptions this year. 4 !!!
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:49 AM CST reply actions
nothing wrong
just think hes overrated due to his picks. Ints don’t always tell how good or bad a CB is. Vasher is a great example
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