Talent and Da Bears
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 1:28 AM CST
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I've been hanging around WCG for a few months now and while I generally find this to be a great community, there are a few things that have bothered me lately. First among those things is the common complaint that the Bears are lacking in talent.
I've heard it for years, and it always gets me. I'm no shill, and I have serious issues with some of the personnel moves made by the Bears over the years, but to act as if this team doesn't have the talent to compete for a Super Bowl seems odd to me.
Has anyone noticed a common theme over the past few years of players who didn't make the cut in Chicago, for whatever reason, finding more success elsewhere? Cedric Benson, Thomas Jones, Bobby Wade, Justin Gage, Mike Brown, Marc Colombo, Mike Gandy, Brandon McGowen, Chris Harris, John St Clair, Tank Johnson, Mushin Muhammad. For whatever reason, none of these players performed well in Chicago, but had elsewhere (with the exceptions of Jones who blossomed here after being considered a bust in Arizona and Tampa and continued to improve after arriving in NY, and Mike Brown, who was just injury prone)
As we sit here and complain about our suffering in the secondary, Brandon McGowen outperformed our safeties with NE, Chris Harris outperformed our safeties with Carolina, and Mike Brown had the best season of his career for the Chiefs. While we huff and puff over our Truly Offensive Line, Mike Gandy and Marc Columbo helped the Cardinals and the Cowboys, respectively, to the playoffs and John St Clair quietly had a better year than Chris Williams. Chris Harris and Brandon McGowen were liabilities in coverage and Mike Brown was injury prone. But they all had better seasons than our safeties. Gandy and St Clair were garbage and Columbo was injury prone, but they all outperformed our tackles.
Chris Williams is being viewed as having a good season (allowed 8 sacks in 590 passing attempts for .0136 sacks/pass play, good for 48th amongst tackles) while last years Chicago line punching bag, John St Clair allowed 6 sacks in 498 attempts, .0120 S/PP, good for 40th among tackles. For the record, Orlando Pace was criticized a lot this year while giving up only three sacks in 443 pass plays, good for a .0067 S/PP and 16th among tackles. Too bad he couldn't run block.
My point here is that we, as Bears fans, spend an awful lot of time criticizing the players, and Jerry Angelo, for the talent level, only to watch those players succeed elsewhere. This begs the question: Who is really at fault for this pattern of unreached potential?
I would suggest directing the stares at the men behind the curtain: The coaching staff. Perfect examples do exist, mind you. Ron Rivera took the Bears to the '06 Super Bowl with a ferocious defense that ranked 1st in points allowed and 2nd in yards allowed in '05 and 3rd in points allowed and 5th in yards allowed in '06. Rivera was ousted after the Super-Loss, and with Babich coordinating effectively the same group of men, the defense plummeted to 16th in PA and 28th in YA in '07 and 16th and 21st, respectively, in '08. In the three years with Rivera at the helm, Da Bears averaged allowing 16 points and 304 yards per game. And over the three years since Rivera left the Bears have averaged allowing 22 points and 342 yards per game.
Between 2005 and 2006, Rivera's coaching produced 3 All-Pro performances and 8 Pro-Bowl appearances by five different players on the defensive side of the ball. Since his departure, the Bears defense have produced no All-Pro performances and 3 Pro-Bowl appearances, all by Lance Briggs. Most interesting, is that eight of the starters from '05 campaign, and nine of the '06 starters, are still on the roster, including 4 of the 5 Pro-Bowlers.
Decreased production with Rivera's departure plus increased success for players who leave the team leads me to one conclusion: Coaching is the problem.
[All stats and figures calculated using info from www.pro-football-reference.com and hosted.stats.com]
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its bad
i voted coaches, as the problem.why was rivera let go, when he could have built on his his mistakes and rectified any of his personnel weaknesses ie players who didnt or wouldnt perform.lovie could have maintained stability by keeping him or did they have issues.
Rivera....
Lovie Smith and tthe Bears chose not to renew Rivera after the Super-Loss. Instead of renewing Rivera, Smith chose to promote Bob Babich to the DC position.
According to this CBS News story, Rivera wanted to return, but was informed that he would not.
Appears to have been one of the stupidest mistakes of Smith’s HC tenure……….Maybe Ron can replace Lovie after next year.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 3:26 AM CST up reply actions
Superb post.
Rec’d.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
Just realized...
that I voted the wrong way, oh well…
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 24, 2010 7:18 AM CST up reply actions
Nice friggin FanPost T-Train...
I promoted it to the front page; sorry about the Poll… it was a casualty of some technical difficulties. Feel free to re-add it if you like.
Sending condolences and peaceful thoughts to the family and community of Gaines Adams.
Thank You.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
I've said this for a long time.
While Jerry Angelo isn’t completely off the hook, I’ve always felt it’s a lack of player development by the coaching staff that is more responsible for the majority of our problems. Where Jerry needs to be called on the carpet is not intervening enough in getting some players on the field sooner, when it’s apparent that the players Lovie wants to stick with aren’t cutting it.
Bottom line is that the whole organization is ineffective and each level of management doesn’t hold the people below them on the organizational chart accountable enough. The decisions on some of the long term contracts and the length of time they’re tied to a player also falls under JA. I’m not saying we should never tie up our good performers, but Jerry needs to do a better job of playing poker and not going “all in” after one good season. That goes for dealing with his HC as well. The NFL is littered with coaches or players who found lightening in a bottle for one year, got rewarded handsomely for it, and never had a decent season again. I don’t care if Lovie WINS a Super Bowl next year, if they sign him to an extension we’ll go through this whole cycle for another 5 years.
It may even go further than just lack of player development & poor roster decisions
How about leadership by Lovie and the coaching staff? How about energy level and focus inside the locker room? Our head coach seems like a heck of a nice guy that the players all “like”, but does that translate into getting people motivated and ready to play at a high level every Sunday?
Why is it that several players have been signed to big contract extentions and then stopped producing on the field,or hit a sticking point – as if they’re no longer motivated (Tommy Harris, Nate Vasher)? By the way, I believe Phillips was mainly to blame for screwing up Lovie’s contract and giving him too big and too long a guarenteed deal (5 years), instead of 3 years, with an option for 2 more. His blowing that deal is the reason why we’re “stuck” with Lovie again this year.
"Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking." - Jim McMahon
Good point
but I’d have to think Jerry had some say in it. If he didn’t than my earlier comment about it being an ineffective organization is even more accurate.
I said in a post a few days ago that some of the players attitude toward Lovie based on “he respects us and treats us like grown men” almost allows them to underperform. Everyone should be treated with respect and like an adult, but if they’re actions (late to meetings, missing team events, not going hard in practice, not paying attention, stupid penalties during games, etc.) show that they aren’t deserving of that treatment, then Lovie doesn’t seem to be the guy to bring the hammer down. They all say “you don’t know how tough he is in practice” or “he doesn’t yell but he gives you that look”, please, when does he ever get in someone’s face or sit them down (unless it’s a rookie) to make his point?
I agree with you wholeheartedly, he’s weak as a HC and I look forward to the day when his title is officially changed to “former Head Coach of the Chicago Bears, Lovie Smith”.
+1
I agree completely.
In addition, though, what would our defense look like with someone in charge who could have properly utilized Chris Harris and Brandon McGowen? Or if someone who was in charge had thought about developing Hester as the corner he was supposed to be or Manning as the free safety he should have been instead of playing musical positions with him? Can anyone point to a player in the league who has worn as many hats as Manning and been successful? Imagine, instead of Afalava, Payne, Bowman and Tillman, you would likely be looking Harris, Manning, Hester and Tillman. I know it’s speculating to put Manning or Hester into those spots as starters, but is it really a reach? Hester has the skill set to be a (dare I say it?) Deion Sanders type corner, and Manning has the skills to be a top flight FS. Were they properly handled, this could have been the most feared secondary in the league.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
I have no idea why they tried the experiment with Hester and made him a WR
Other than the fact that he was so successful as a return man, that they wanted to put the ball in his hands on a more frequent basis. The logic they used was that his success as a KR/PR would transfer over to being a successful WR and he would have more chances “to take it to the house.”
I don’t think it was very sound reasoning by the Bear’s coaching staff, but Hester has given it a solid effort. Maybe he would have been a better corner than a WR, or at least had a shorter learning curve.
"Yes, risk taking is inherently failure-prone. Otherwise, it would be called sure-thing-taking." - Jim McMahon
look for yourself
ENUFF with all the Hester the wr hatting. He had a pretty good year. He ran decent routes, showed he has hands, ad a few back to back 100 yard games, and broke several punts (can’t blame him for flags by teamates). Just because the media is still on the bears about the move doesn’t mean it was bad. The guy has gotten better at it each year. The problem was he was our #1 WR and he is not a true #1. As a #2 with the #1 being a big guy, you have a weapon in Hester the wr.
The cold hard facts ...
Judge for yourselves, but this is what Angelo has brought us for talent (my personal favorite is the Michael Haynes Choice – who needs a Troy Polamalu?) :
First Draft…2002
1. Marc Colombo 2. Roe Williams 3. Terrance Metcalf. 4. Alex Brown. 5. Bobby Gray. 5. Bryan Knight. 6. Adrian Peterson. 6. Jamin Elliott. 6. Bryan Fletcher.
Second Draft 2003
1a. Michael Haynes (could have drafted Troy Polamalu, Dallas Clark or Larry Johnson !!)
1b. Rex Grossman. 2. Charles Tillman. 3. Lance Briggs 4. Todd Johnson.
4. Ian Scott. 5. Bobby Wade. 5. Justin Gage. 5. Tron LaFavor. 6. Joe Odom. 6. Brock Forsey. 7. Bryan Anderson.
Third draft 2004
1. Tommie Harris. 2. Tank Johnson. 3. Bernard Berrian. 4. Nate Vasher. 4. Joe Leon. 5. Claude Harriott. 5. Craig Krenzel. 7. Alfonso Marshall.
Fourth draft 2005
1. Ced Benson (Could have picked Cadillac Williams, Jamal Brown, Derrick Johnson, DeMarcus Ware or Shawne Merriman)
2. Mark Bradley.4. Kyle Orton. 5. Airese Currie. 6. Chris Harris. 7. Rod Wilson.
Fifth Draft 2006
2. Danieal Manning. 2. Devin Hester. 3. Dusty Dvoracek. 4. Jamar Williams. 5. Mark Anderson. 6. JD Runnels. 6. Tyler Reed.
Sixth Draft 2007
1. Greg Olsen. 2. Dan Bazuin. 3. Garret Wolfe. Michael Okwo Josh Beekman Kevin Payne Corey Graham Trumaine McBride Aaron Brant
Seventh draft 2008
1. Chris Williams 2. Matt Forte. 3. Earl Bennett. Marcus Harrison Craig Steltz Zack Bowman Kellen Davis Ervin Baldwin Chester Adams Joey Laroque Kirk Barton Marcus Monk
Eighth Draft 2009
Jarron Gilbert Juaquin Iglesias Henry Melton D.J. Moore Colin Brown Johnny Knox Al Afalava Lance Louis Derek Kinder
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
Irish....
It’s always great to look at all of those picks with the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it. Yet none of those picks were considered poor choices when they were made. I come back to the fact that many of these picks are still on the roster, and many more are still on NFL rosters elsewhere. I’ll give you Haynes, though nobody was throwing a fit on draft day. But Ced Benson, I would argue , has turned out to be a better player than all you mentioned behind him but Merriman and Ware, and both, BTW are 3-4 LBs. Last time I checked, Larry Johnson was Benson’s 3rd stringer. Unfortunately, the Bears coaching staff couldn’t get Benson to his potential. The Bengals did, though.
I’m not in any way saying that Angelo is the best personel guy out there. But I am saying that anyone who ignores the success of the so-called talentless draftees with other organizations is blinding themselves to the biggest problem.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 2:08 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry, Colin Brown should read 'Marcus Freeman'
Ced Benson was a good pick. Larry Johnson was one of the premier running backs in the NFL. Where are the others ? It’s easy to pick out a few and go “Look ! Tommie Harris!”, you can pick another 8 nobodies for every good pick …
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 3:22 AM CST up reply actions
Compare the least 8 years of Drafts from most other teams.....
There’s another blog just down the way that seems to dispute your statements. You see, The Bears have an above average amount of starters on their team that they themselves drafted. the majority of those having been drafted by Angelo. These numbers are consistent with those the best teams in the league. In addition there are quite a few Angelo draftees starting on other teams. I’d be willing to bet that the Bears are above average in the number of players starting in the league that were drafted in Chicago.
As a matter of fact, I’ll do the math on all of that, and post it here later today or tomorrow. It would be interesting to see how Angelo’s image in Chicago stacks up against a league wide comparison.
It’s very easy to pick apart Chicago’s drafts without averaging them against the league, but some people act as if the rest of the league is drafting 6-7 starts a year. That’s not a realistic viewpoint, nor a fair comparison.
And, again, hindsight is 20/20. I spent a lot of time after the last post looking at old scouting reports on a lot of these busts, and find a hard time seeing where Chicago stretched for, say, Michael Haynes, who was the biggest bust of the Angelo tenure, so far. In fact, Scout.com’s reports on Haynes were very favorable, and basically tabbed his height as his biggest drawback. Every GM has busts. Having said that, it does seem like Angelo has a lot of First and second rounders who never start (at least in Chicago), so I’ll try to find comparison numbers from around the league there, too.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
I personally thought
Haynes was a horrible pick.
best first round decision
Mark Columbo. He has been the most successful out of them all. Too bad his success hasn’t come with the Bears. I hear he may be a FA this year, maybe we can beg him to come back
Makin' Copies
I don't understand the desire to fixate on one problem and act like no other problems exist
If you have bad coaching, then you do have talented players they simply are not performing. That statement (a poor summation of what I think you are saying) is logically false.
There is much truth to what you say about coaching being a problem. However, the fact that we have bad coaches does not necessarily mean we have talent and it simply isn’t being coached up. That is a false logical assumption. The more likely scenario is we have several problems, bad coaching and a lack of talent being just 2 of those problems.
Have we had talented players that have done poorly here only to perform well elsewhere? Yes. However that does not prove the point I think you are trying to make, that we currently have a talented football team.
In addition having let so many players go only to see them play well for other teams seems to highlight the inability of the Bears to “promote from within”. Yet they do not aggressively pursue top veteran talent in free agency. This leaves a bad coaching staff with young inexperienced possible talent instead of proven veteran talent more likely to perform at high levels in spite of the poor coaching. That is the worst part of the point you make, it is a one way trend with talent going out, but none coming in.
JA is responsible for the coaches and the talent, both are lacking.
Kinda agree....
But your summation of my post was a bit off. I didn’t say that the fact that we have bad coaching means we have talent. I said that the talent argument has been around for years, and those same players left to become better players. In other words, taking the past complaints and coupling them with those players successes elsewhere, to me, openly disputes the argument that Angelo has been ineffective at bringing talent to Chicago, and calls into question the viewpoint that the talent level in Chicago is sub-par. History seems to indicate that a large number of those “untalented” players suddenly became talented elsewhere.
As far as the current players are concerned, we can only judge based on experience. And past experience in the “Lovie Era” indicates that the talent is there, it’s just not being used properly.
Are some of those players less talented than others? Of course. Is the only problem with the Bears their player development and utilization? Nope. But I do think it is the biggest issue facing the Bears, and it is the biggest reason, coupled with play calling, that I was so disappointed in the retention of Lovie Smith. The only coach in Chicago who has consistently developed his players well is Dave Toub, and his name is starting to get batted around for head coaching positions. Andy Reed was quoted on Nov 18th in the Sun Times as saying that Toub “was cut out to be a head coach.” and the Bleacher Report dropped an article early this month about the possibility of Toub replacing Smith. Why is Toub being spotlighted? Because, unlike the rest of the Bears Coaching Regime, Toub has actually proven he can develop players and utilize them in the roles he envisions (See Ayanbadejo, Peterson, Wolfe, Idonije, Shaw, etc……)
And please don’t think that this is a pardon for Angelo. As I said before, Angelo has done a good job of drafting talent (better than he is credited with, actually) but has done a terrible job of filling needs and in the free agency market (Cutler aside). Other than Cutler, who the jury is out on, Thomas Jones, Des Clark, Adawale Ogunleye, Ricky Manning, John Tait and Ruben Brown stand out as the only effective free agent acquisitions of Angelo’s tenure, and none of those were highly touted at the time, other than Ogunleye.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
good point on Toub
The bears have been in the top 5 in Special Teams with a few number 1’s in there to boot for years now, thats not an accident.
Even after Devin Hester’s conversion to WR, he simply plugged in someone else and they didn’t miss a beat.
Dave Toub is the best coach we have on our team.
by Chitownproduct on Jan 25, 2010 6:32 AM CST up reply actions
He was an...
Offensive Lineman in college and spent most of his coaching career as either a strength and conditioning coach or in his current capacity. He did have one stint as a DL coach at the University of Missouri. For what it’s worth.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 25, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
agreed
It’s all like a house of cards. Everything dovetails into everything else.
"I am not an animal!" - Merrick
Agreed however
last time I checked they made a Super Bowl appearance with John Tait, Reuben Brown, Roberto Garza and Fred Miller, none of which were Bears draft picks, starting on the OL.
Angelo tried to repeat the formula last year with Pace, Omiyale and Shaffer. Results weren’t quite the same needless to say but I can’t really argue going with what worked before. It makes great sense to me: fill the holes on the OL with experienced veterans in hopes that they have less to learn and can gel more quickly than youngsters.
Having said all that I still blame the ’09 woes on injury and the abrupt retirement of Tait.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson
"More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
All of which suggests that he has no real concept of building an offense line through the draft.
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"I don’t care if Belichick wins twenty Super Bowls. He’s an asshole." - Da Coach
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
idk about shaffer
he didn’t come in until Cdub moved to LT and Shaffer did a heluva job
Makin' Copies
What about injuries?
I agree that one of the problems we are having is development of young talent. However what concerns me more and is something we defiantly need to fix is our ability to rehabilitate from injuries. I understand that in the NFL players have to play hurt but I think we can agree that our training staff and doctors are either putting the athletes back on the field too soon or are unable to determine when to put them back on the field. Year after year players are put back on the field after they supposedly had procedures to repair problems and they never get any better. While we are putting our eye on fixing the coaching staff I think we need to turn an eye to our training staff and their ability to rehab our players so they get back on the field and can play at 100%
oops, sorry.......
Meant for the below post to be a reply here.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I agree.....
Though, again, I think this comes back to the coaching and training staff, and directly in the lap of Rusty Jones (Director of Physical Development) and Jim Arthur (Strength and Conditioning Coach).
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 12:22 PM CST reply actions
wow
im the only thinking bad luck?
i mean for colombo who knew he could be a solid tackle? unfortunately with his time as a bear most of it was spent on IR.
We defnitly need better scouting and coaching because players flourish in other enviorments and not here then we need to take a look around and see why
Generally good post but
the Williams-StClair bit was off the mark. Williams is going to get a lot better whereas StClair had what was probably a career year. Also, Williams has moved to LT, a position StClair could not hope to fill. Williams will be qa solid LT for several yars, while StClair is a journeyman RT, nothing more.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Off Point...
My point wasn’t in keeping St Clair over Williams. Or that St Clair is better than Williams. On the contrary, my point is that St Clair, an obviously inferior tackle, as well as Mike Gandy, also inferior, had better years with other staffs. What kind of year would Williams have had in Cleveland, or Arizona, or Denver? Probably significantly better than St Clair or Gandy. And Williams plaid 12 of 16 games an the RT spot, so comparing their numbers is certainly fair.
The point was that these players were supposed to be less than talented when they were here, but where shown to be talented once they were elsewhere. Not that they were somehow better than Williams. The point of the whole post was in defense of Williams and the other players and that the problem is with the coaching staff. I think you misunderstood that. I in now way think that St Clair is a better tackle than Williams. I think that Williams would be an even better tackle with a real coaching staff. Hopefully Tice will help that.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Williams will benefit in 2010 from two developments:
1. he will be playing LT from day one, his natural position, and
2. Tice as OL coach
As for the point of your post, as I said I thought it was a good post, so do you still want to say I missed the point of it?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 25, 2010 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
Just where Williams was concerned...lol.
Hopefully Tice works out, and I actually have hope there. And I agree that he’ll benefit from being solidified in the LT position. The Bears were complete dunderheads for bringing in Pace in the first place. Williams lost a year of LT development, and Shaffer, Omiyale lost out on development at RT, and Beekman was lost in the mix. All I see in the Pace experiment is a year of development lost for our younger linemen. Angelo and Smith were trying to win now to save their jobs, and ended up hurting the progression of 4 other linemen in the process, all the while sporting an inferior line to the previous year…..
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
I don't fault them for assuming Williams was not ready to take the LT spot.
He missed his rookie year and LT is the toughest spot on the OL. Did they make a mistake signing Pace? Clearly, but that does not automatically mean that Williams would have worked out there all season. He did pretty well late in the season, but he had gotten a lot of playing time at RT in preparation for moving to LT.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 26, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
wow!
Great post T! Angelo is maybe the best gm to find late round talent at the draft but his take on FA and first and second round whiffs is what worries me. If you miss on a couple of picks in a draft then it’s ok but to screw up the whole ‘07 draft with Olsen being the exception and the ’08 with williams missing a year in what was something they already knew and that draft brought the most amount of talented tackles we saw in the whole decade itls dissapointing and Bow being the only find late is extremely disturbing to me. I like lovie but he is too loyal sometimes to players that are not performing (rex) They do not lack that much talent but the coaches f*k development and since Rivera popped up… All those players that got big contracts all had their biggest years with rivera in 05 and 06. they need to make a decision with vasher who is making a whole lot of money! I thought he would be great for the nickel back pos with his ball skills and quickness(not speed) he doesn’t have the size and health to play outside anymore and let manning do his thing at FS. I like Turrenne but again Moore sat out the whole year and the Db’s got injured and they needed a big body with speed and he was activated for the final only. Iglesias just warmed up some bench and they need to make a decision with Jamar Williams or he’s going to walk after next year and be good for another team with nothing in return. Develop the young and hold some players accountable and blame all the coaches except toub and drake who did a good job with a whole lot of young receivers.
Fuck you, Fuck you, Fuck you, You're Cool! Fuck you, I'm out!
it’s ok but to screw up the whole ‘07 draft with Olsen being the exception ....
Olsen, are you kidding me ? The guy is a bust, and I don’t care if he caught 7 TDs this year. 3 of those were in a game that was already over. Greg Olsen is a liability on the roster …. can’t block, can’t get open, suspect toughness, and why was he prmoted over Dez Clarke ? Olsen is our # 3 TE in my book … K Davis is bigger, better and can block …
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:40 AM CST up reply actions
Not to mention Olsen and Angelo are both Miami U......
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 3:22 AM CST up reply actions
great post btw T
If you look thru the posts just on this site today you see they are talking about the injuries. Look at Mike Brown if he could have stayed healthy we wouldn’t have a problem with our secondary and he brought out the best in others on our D. I agree we have problems with coaching and developing but there is a MAJOR problem with conditioning and rehabilitation of our players. How long is Harris gonna have to be sitting out games or practices with a knee that was repaired last year? Mike brown is a prime example with Chicago he couldn’t stay healthy. What is the difference when he goes to KC? He is just one instance of players getting healthy when they leave Chicago also so T I agree with you and hopefully we do get some new coaches that will develope our in house talent. But I think we need to take a serious look at how we are getting our players conditioned and how we get them back after injury. Obviously Lovie’s idea of not hitting early in the off season isn’t working.
I agree. That's all part of coaching, Dawg....
Rusty Jones and Jim Arthur are part of Lovie’s coaching staff. Rusty is the Director of Physical Development and Jim is the Strength and Conditioning Coach. So we see eye-to-eye, here.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
coaching and talent evaluation seems to be a mess
for example, telling veteran QB’s they would be allowed to fight it out for a position backing up Grossman
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I heard ....
…. Hester hasn’t done any squat-lifting since he got to the Bears – can anyone confirm that ?
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:41 AM CST up reply actions
If you haven't heard it yet, nice post T-Train.
No doubt in my mind that we have more talent on this team than it shows. Do you think we would have had a better record with Ditka coaching them this past season? Ditka gets to choose all coaches..same players though. We make it to the playoffs at least imo.
Round and round ya go, where ya stop only Homie knows..spin your dumb ass!!! Homie D. Clown
by Bears fan 4-ever!!! on Jan 24, 2010 5:22 PM CST reply actions
I agree.....
But I don’t think it would even take a high profile coach. I honestly think that if Dave Toub were running the team, this team would have been a playoff contender, as long as he hired good coordinators. For that matter, if Smith brought in some decent coordinators this team could compete. Rivera was proof of that.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 24, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
I think we could have even won with Turner...
it’s the lack of discipline that runs through the entire team and Lovie’s unwillingness to identify/play the best players that kept us below .500. Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t crazy about Turner as OC, but it was stupid penalties, bad decisions, not being prepared (especially defensively) that would have caused a minimum of a 2 game swing for us in ’09. That, might have put us into the playoff picture at least. We need a few more pieces to be serious contenders, in my opinion, but we definitely had the talent to be better than a .500 team.
I dont know if it is discipline
of if it the inability to have the coaching positions defined. Lovie is all over the place coaching, and due to that it is more chaos than anything. How many times did Jim Miller talk about that on the post game show?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
it is coaching, no doubt.
We saw it this season. We trade for a QB, and forget it is ok to run a ball. A few times this season we had less than 15 TOTAL rushing attempts for the game, and that will always lead to trouble.
Regarding players like Benson, he is one who needed the ball 20+ times a game to get going, not a platoon backfield. That is coaching agaon, not knowing what they are drafting and how it needs to be used.
Berrien being let go, same thing. Coaching cant figure out what they have and watch him go elsewhere and light the world up.
Until Lovie is out we will be going no where. There is a reason why no one seems to want to be the Offense Coach with Lovie in charge.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Then the GM should've fired the HC!
He didn’t because he has consistently stated the he and Lovie are tied together. Angelo made his bed and now he has to sleep in it.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
While grammatically poor I stand by my post that Angelo has given Lovie his range
and allowed him to make (poor) coaching decisions and he is ultimately responsible for Lovies blunders.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
Except that it seems to be Phillips who made lovie an equal partner with Angelo.....
So if you replace Jerry Angelo’s name with Ted Phillips. I agree completely. Actually, I would have absolutely no problem with a top to bottom firing. But Smith’s retention burns my arse most of all.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 2:13 AM CST up reply actions
Good Job.
You can always tell a post is great when the replies are super long. This one generated a lot of feedback and further discussion. Hats off.
Not to let Lovie off the hook but..
Cedric Benson and Tank Johnson were let go because they kept going to jail. We dropped Cedric Benson after his second DUI arrest (both were later dismissed) and we dropped Tank after his arrest in Arizona (which was dissmised as well.) We traded Thomas Jones, and that hurts because even at 31, he got it. All three were Jerry Angelo decisions. We also need to compare our free agents and draft picks over the last 3 years compared to those of Minnesota. Jared Allen and Steve Hutchison (along with Berrian) in free agency, while the last three drafts 1.Adrian Peterson 2. Sidney Rice 3.Percy Harvin. I blame Lovie because I think he babies players, but we haven’t been doing anything in free agency. This year we picked Orlando Pace, a big name and future hall of famer. Too bad we got him in ’09 instead of ’99. Both of them should have been shown the door this year
Don’t look at the Steelers’ #1 draft picks over the past 10 years, then. You’ll end up chewing through your mouse cord.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"I don’t care if Belichick wins twenty Super Bowls. He’s an asshole." - Da Coach
News to me.
When did Benson and Johnson go to jail ?
by Irish Bears Fan on Jan 25, 2010 1:42 AM CST up reply actions
Tank, I agree with.....
But the Bears jumped the gum on Ced. As I recall, the charges were dropped in both cases. In the DWI case, the video evidence supported Benson’s case, and in the Boating indecent, witness accounts lined up with Benson’s account. But the Bears released him, and the Bengals showed him some faith. Ced is now doing very well in Cinci.
I’m willing to give Angelo a small bit of leniency, due to the aforementioned issues. But I also wouldn’t shed any tears if he were ousted, as long as Lovie went with him.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 2:22 AM CST up reply actions
Blame Tank for the Bears giving up on Benson
As for the Bengals showing some faith in Benson, they had a desperate need for a RB, so it was less a show of faith, and more a move born out of desperation.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 25, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
LOOK AROUND
The Bears hit & miss like most other NFL Teams. That’s the bottom line but you guys only pay this close attention to our beloved Bear. Every decade, every team:
Hits on a few studs (#54, 91)
Has a few bust (M. Haynes, Roe Will, Ced Benson need to understand it’s a privilege)
some tuff luck picks that don’t work out due to injury (Marc Clo, Dusty D.)
a few mid to late round solid finds(Briggs, Orton)
So get over it, it’s a league wide deal
by jay42 on Jan 25, 2010 9:32 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 25, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
This team has plenty of talent, and most of it came from outside the first round. I think Knox, Bowman, Harrison, Afalava, Gilbert, Bennett, and Chris Williams all will be above-average players, and they were all drafted in the 3rd round or later. All we need is coaching and player development.
The only time the Mets win is in the offseason.
All 3, but mostly coaching.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
I can't stand band-wagoner fans, stick with your team, throughout the good and the bad.
Coaching
is what it takes to make a team successful. The Bears coaching staff needs evaluated especially on the Offensive end of it. There are plenty of players with a lot of potential that will explode with the right coaches. We could use a better Defensive Coordinator as well, I mean the defensive line lets a lot of 3rd downs happen that shouldn’t. With the right guidance I think we could have an explosive team…i.e. Knox & Hester.
Dude, are you actually a fan?
Is there nothing good about the Bears in your opinion? I get not liking the coaching decisions, and having issues with Lovie Smith and all that, but I can’t find a post that you did anything but crap on Chicago, here. Lot’s of people here are angry, and I’m one of them. But you just seem like one of those GB fans who likes to post just to tear us down.
If not, then get a grip, bro. I don’t know if we’re in good shape, but I know there are at least some things good with the bears.
by HateMe2Morrow on Jan 28, 2010 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
What is it that you like about the Bears?
I’m just wondering. No sarcasm involved here. You’re obviously passionate about it, and that usually means there would be some things you would like as well. I’m just trying to gauge where you’re coming from, here.
I’m angry, too, bro. And I’ve agreed with some of what you’ve commented. I think the organization owes us more as consumers and fans. I think Lovie should have been fired. I think he could have taken everyone with him except Dave Toub. But I’m not blind to the youth and talent that exists on the team. I think we definitely have needs, such as a real FS for a scheme that requires a real FS to be effective. Another need is at least two true pass rushers because the cover two is garbage without them and we don’t have them. And a real guard or two to help out the running game would be nice, well. But this team has adequate to good talent in most positions, and great talent and depth in the linebacking corps and tight end corps, as well as an up and coming group of young wide-outs, and a talented young Pro Bowl QB, a couple of promising young RBs, A pretty decent set of corners in Peanut and Zack, and a couple of strong young SSs who could only improve in the offseason competition that is sure to happen if the Bears can acquire a real FS and allow Payne and Afalava to duel it out.
There are problem areas, and I don’t want to quite anyone from talking about those problems. But I also think it does just as much of a disservice to ignore the good as it does to ignore the bad…….
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 28, 2010 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
Been a fan me entire life. Tired of bleeding orange and blue and having people tell me that bloodletting is an effective remedy.
Hester is awesome. The inability to get him the ball, infuriating. Kruetz’s tough approach is reminiscent of what once made this organization a dynasty to be envied. I think Forte is a great back and his ability to get 2-3 extra yards on many carries has impressed me as he shows ability beyond his years. Cutler won me over with the TD/helicopter run. I think Alex Brown is a game changer and Mark Anderson is great when unleashed. A healthy Tommie Harris is a beast. Urlacher is, well Urlacher, at this point his return is my only significant source of optimism. Been a fan of Briggs since our days at Arizona.
Sure i took the bait and said positive things, but all that said I am very underwhelmed by our future prospects. Even if I acknowledged potential, potential is capability not yet in existence. Clearly this team as it currently exists is a bad team, 7-9 and no playoffs for 3 years in a row. Maybe some changes will be made to improve this team, until then I refuse to count chickens before they hatch and praise the 22nd best team in the league for how good it is.
Honestly, wasn't baiting....
Was actually trying to prove a point to others. You’ve come across recently as believing there is nothing good about the Bears. I found that hard to believe, as people who show that much passion for a team always have love for the same team.
This last post was exactly what I thought was behind it all. Exasperation and love. I saw glimmers of it in other posts. I thought you and I were probably a lot closer in our ideas than it looked like on paper. We are. I’m pissed and I hold little hope at all for this season, unless Lovie magically learns how to utilize talent and hire good coaches over night.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
Huh?
2-3 extra yards
He’s averaged 3.8 per carry since being in the league. How could he possibly get an extra 2-3 yards? His “fight,” as most call it, hasn’t translated to the field. I do love him as a WR, which is why Martz might be successful in Chicago.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
maybe 2-3 yards was a little generous
but i maintain that he fights for yards until the whistle blows. and what i was really alluding to is that even at the end of tackles when he is close to the ground he seems to be able to advance the ball.
Then again 1 yard on the HB dive + 2.8-3 yards after the initial contact is made at the line… sounds about right.
I am assuming sarcasm here
if this isn’t sarcasm ("I think Alex Brown is a game changer and Mark Anderson is great when unleashed. "), … wow!
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 30, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
A lucky rookie year
he benefited from having a lot of talented defenders around him. After his 12 sack rookie year he has not even gotten 12 sacks total since. It is doubtful these lousy sack numbers the last three seasons were due to his being leashed.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 31, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
I hope you're joking.
We have talent. Just aren’t using and building it like we should be.
"A lot of fans were drawn to me because they knew that whatever the score was, I was going to run as hard as I could on every play. You don't have that now, you have guys waiting for next week or even next year." - Walter Payton
by Ashley Czuba on Jan 28, 2010 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
There's a reason I'm ignoring you.
Don’t flatter yourself.
"A lot of fans were drawn to me because they knew that whatever the score was, I was going to run as hard as I could on every play. You don't have that now, you have guys waiting for next week or even next year." - Walter Payton
by Ashley Czuba on Jan 28, 2010 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
Most likely the total absence of a factual basis for your opinion.
Your silence is an implied admission that I am in fact correct.
whoo......
Please show us factual basis that supports your opinion……..Cause, honestly, if you really believe there is no talent on this team, I’d like more than a “because I said so” or “look at their record” answer.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 28, 2010 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
7-9 record. No playoffs for three years in a row. 22nd place in a race of 32.
Maybe those facts do not impress you, maybe you think we should get rings for 22nd place, but regardless of the weight you give to these facts they are sufficient evidence of a bad team.
Sure there is talent on this team. Only problem is a majority of the “talent” is not talented enough to start for good NFL teams. Sure our coaches are bad, but they really don’t have much to work with. Jerry Angelo is not very good, it is not a reach that the talent he has stocked this team with is not very good either. This is a guy who’s reputation and modus operandi are to stock the team with the best 5th 6th and 7th round picks available. Sorry, but that will lose just about every time to GMs who are good at drafting more talented players in rounds 1, 2, and 3.
Cut the condescending crap....
It’s not making your argument, for you. Again, you just gave a great reason why Lovie Smith should have been fired. But, try looking around the league at draft records. I am, as I promised earlier this week. So far, your argument doesn’t hold a lot of water. I’ve been working on tracking every draft pick in the last decade (which is why I didn’t make that “day or two” deadline I set for myself. Wow, was I underestimating the amount of work it would take to compile these stats) and so far the Bears drafting decade is stacking up well against those of the NFC North and West. Still have about 70 or so picks to track in the West, plus about 300 picks per division for 6 more divisions, but so far, Chicago’s picks storm in looking pretty solid by comparison to the rest of the league.
Right now, our defense is the biggest issue, and that consists of many of the same players, most of whom are still under 30, who went to (and many claim drove us to) a Super Bowl 3 years ago. Brown, Harris, Ogunleye, Briggs, Urlacher, Tillman, Vasher, and Hillenmeyer all started in Chicago in ‘06. These players are all talented. 5 of them have been to Pro-Bowls. Would have been six if Peanut wasn’t hurt this year. But there’s no talent in Chicago? Please…..
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
I did a post awhile ago
with all the bears picks since the Angelo era if that helps you guys.
I have a.....
thorough list of every player drafted by any team in any year. Thanks though. But the insane amount of work comes from tracking down where every player went, whether they started, whether they produced, and for how long. I’m good with research, but it’s honestly still taking me 6-7 hours per team of hard research, not to mention lots of paper for notes and lots more for calculations. Worst yet, one of my monitors died and I have to try and do all of this on one 19inch 4/3, which has greatly increased the amount of paper I use and the amount of time I spend clicking through different browsers. But it’s a labor of love………….I think……..
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
Can't wait to see the finished product.
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Jan 29, 2010 7:14 AM CST up reply actions
JA's specialty is defense. JA hired and chose to retain Lovie Smith.
He has been here since 2001 and our defense is our “biggest issue”!?! That is a friggin joke. The joke is on Bears fans. Don’t shoot the messenger peoples.
I agree with you here....
I wrote a piece in ‘07 forwarding the thought that the Bears should bring in an assistant GM in charge of offensive talent. Angelo is far better divining defensive talent than the average, but isn’t exactly striking gold on the offensive side in the draft (though his biggest bust would be Haynes, but still) and the “need” to move Hester to an unnatural position, as well as Rasheed Davis, illustrates that point perfectly. Maybe they can bring in a real OC and give him some personnel responsibility. I don’t know……
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
One of my biggest gripes is not knowing how to use Hester
I was at the U when he was there, have always been a big fan… The guy he has always reminded me of is Isaac Bruce. When Bruce was a rookie he was a very good kick returner. I’m pretty sure it was Mike Martz (OH NO!!!) that took those talents and developed that game breaker into a great WR. 4 years in and the Bears are clueless when it comes to getting one of the best playmakers in NFL history the ball on offense. I have been impressed with Hester’s improvement as a receiver and I am confident that he will be one hell of a good receiver, especially if DA prevents D’s from “umbrella” covering Hester’s side of the field.
That said I do not know why being a WR and special’s teams dynamo are mutually exclusive, but whatever.
The WR-ST dynamo...
Becoming a #1 or #2 WR screws up the best ST returners because the practice with the 1st team offense, and get very little time working with Toub and the ST unit. When you spend so little time working on returns with the team, you lose the edge. Devin is the newest casualty of his own success (see Brian Mitchell, Dante Hall, Desmond Howard, etc…)
I read an article once that quoted Deion Sanders saying the Dallas coaching staff had enough confidence in his cover abilities to afford him extra time with the ST unit, which he said benefited him a lot in his return game. Devin, unfortunately, needs a lot of work yet (route running for example) and cannot afford the time away from the receivers coach and 1st team offense. He’s definitely making strides, but he’s definitely not as trustable in the WR position as Deion was at corner.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
Thank you.....
Agree completely. The ravens thank us. Just as the Chiefs thank us for Brown, The Vikings thank us for Berrian, the bengals thank us for Benson, the Cards thank us for Gandy, the Cowboys thank us for Columbo, etc………..
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 1:16 AM CST up reply actions
How does practicing as a full time WR
mess with Hester’s ability to make one cut and run north and south?
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
thats not what
hester does, he has never done that, nor will he EVER do that. in 06 and 07 when he was at his peak he NEVER made one cut and ran north south. Im tired of people saying that. Hester has always been one of those he either breaks a TD or he loses 10 yeards type of guy. So quit bringing ot he one cut card, it isnt hester and it never will be
Makin' Copies
Not so sure about that
I’ll have to look at the highlights and get back to you on it, cause typically it only takes one cut to get into the open and break it.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
One-cut runner
If you look at the majority of his return TDs, he initiates his runs by going in one direction and then going the other way. Disregard the tip-toeing because he still cut in one direction. If there happened to be a defender like a punter left behind, that’s the only time he re-directed his route.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
It isn't Hester and it isn't time devoted to ST v. WR
It is the decimation caused by trading pro bowler Ayanbadejo. Great blocks = spectacular returns.
decent blocks = decent returns.
regardless of the large profits made from going to the Super Bowl (which was largely due to our dominant STs and return game ie Ayanbadejo) the bears were unwilling to entertain the idea of paying Ayanbadejo is the amount he deserved.
I loved me some BA
but I am curious to where Baltimore’s ST’s have ranked since his acquisition. Have they improved, drastically?
I’m not debating you, just genuinely curious.
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
LOL
I was just curious as to if you knew off the top of your head. Considering you made such a dominant statement in:
It is the decimation caused by trading pro bowler Ayanbadejo.
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
so you weren't curious, you just wanted to challenge me.
Cute way of saying u are just too lazy to look it up yourself, but wanted to attack my credibility anyway.
Sounds more like a debate then genuine curiosity to me. And every statement i make dominates, especially compared to any of yours.
Maybe he is the one that has been clueless
when it comes to remembering the plays…
" Former Original WCG Power Poster!"
Except....
Ted Phillips chose to retain Lovie Smith AND Jerry Angelo. I say fire him first in ’10!
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
But Phillips main job
is the buisness side of the Org. and he has actually done a good job at that. He hired Angelo to run the actual playing side. I have never heard Phillips claim to be a football guy. As much as we hate to admit it the fact remains that it is a buisness and profits will always be the bottom line. I’m sure Angelo interviewed good and from his resume i can see why Phillips would hire him. The fact that he retained them due to the money they would still be owed has to be factored in from his perspective. In todays economy you can’t be so quick to just through money around. especially with the looming CBA complications.
unfortunately.....
this is where I fume. The Bears are making bank off of the fans that they then offer an inferior product to, knowing that we won’t stop buying tickets, watching at home, wearing jerseys or flying flags. Sport fans are easy targets for this kind of “business” decisions. If you got more bad burgers from McDonald’s than good ones, you wouldn’t go back unless they made changes to correct the problem. In sports, you have to types of owners. The Kraft/Illich types and the McKaskey types. The Kraft/Illich type loves their fans and their team, and spend what it takes to offer the best team/product around. The McKaskey types force us to suffer through 4 playoff appearances in the same 17 years that GB saw 12 and then make “money” decisions becaus ethey know that they have a huge market and a dedicated fan base who will keep them rich regardless of their product.
It drives me nuts. To bad Illich can’t buy an NFL team from a competing market, and God help us if he ever succeeds in buying the Lions. Then we really will hit bottom, at least in the NFC North…………
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
So what do you think we should do?
I don’t know if firing Phillips is the answer because i do think he has a sound mind for the buisness aspects. Maybe we should hire a mike holmgren or bill percals type and make him the vice president of football operations. Take the actual on the field product out oof Ted Phillips hands. To be quit honest with you i don’t really know how the power is distributed in the Org. So with out actually knowing were the responsibilties lie it is hard to actually come up with a viable solution.
Hiring a VP of operations would be a great start.....
But good luck with that. That’s just more money that an uncaring front office doesn’t seem to want to spend to put out a quality product.
The problem is that there is nothing we can do, short of boycotting the team until they make real changes. And I don’t see that happening, and I really don’t even condone it. We suffer. That it.
Pisses you off, don’t it?
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 1:13 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you
but one of the things that should be helping us is the scheme we employ. The beauty of the cover 2 scheme is you don’t need that all star player at every position. You just need guys to be disciplined and do there job which is directly linked to the coaching.. There are better players on different teams but to say we don’t have talent is kind of crazy because this is the NFL, all the players in the league are the best.
To change the subject a bit
What do you guys think of picking up Antonio bryant?
I'd like to see if he can recover from the knee before we go spending big bucks on him......
It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. If the Bears gamble on him and the knee causes him to decline or fall out, the Bears are screwed in the media. If the Bears don’t gamble on him, and he ends up recovering fully and tearing up the league elsewhere, the Bears are screwed in the media.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
I was more just wondering if you thought
we should take a chance or not as oposed to the obvious ramifications. Me personnally i think we should take a pass.
I absolutely agree.....
The reward doesn’t match the risk.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 29, 2010 12:50 AM CST up reply actions
Absolute BS.
“Has anyone noticed a common theme over the past few years of players who didn’t make the cut in Chicago, for whatever reason, finding more success elsewhere? Cedric Benson, Thomas Jones, Bobby Wade, Justin Gage, Mike Brown, Marc Colombo, Mike Gandy, Brandon McGowen, Chris Harris, John St Clair, Tank Johnson, Mushin Muhammad. For whatever reason, none of these players performed well in Chicago, but had elsewhere …”
Thomas Jones, Mike Brown, John St. Clair never performed well in Chicago ? BS !! Muhsin Muhammad never performed well ANYWHERE. Tank Johnson went to prison for being found with a bunch of guns and Cedric Benson got arrested for menacing the police. Marc Colombo broke his leg ? Mike Gandy sucks. Are we really missing Gage or Wade ? Gage might be handy right about now ….
only part right Irish
-T. Jones is overrated in Chicago. He is a good back but mostly only gets what his line gives him, as seen throughout his time in the NFL.
-Mike Brown was awesome but its football injuries are going to cause problems
-St. Clair was a solid lineman we should never have gotten rid of, well not for Frank O. that is
-Muhammad was solid for us, hell he played with a small break in his hand for a season and was up in age by time we got him
-Tank never went to prison; he got arrested for possessing guns in one state while they were registered in another. (the media scene would lead you to believe he killed someone but he didn’t)
***only got rid of him because the media scene made for bad PR regardless of the truth
-Benson got arrested for standing up to the police when they unjustifiably harassed him (god forbid a guy like him do that with hot young chicks in TX)
***he had too much success in football & had to leave to understand the privilege of playing in the league & therefore turn it up a notch. Don’t forget there was a time he and Jones made a good pair… oh yea we went to the Super Bowl that year
-Gandy didn’t suck he just didn’t fit in with our line situation at the time
Wow, Maybe....
you should try reading the post before ranting. I believe that I said in the beginning, “for whatever reason”. I do not believe I said all of these players sucked. You even quoted me…..except you conveniently left out the qualifier I included, explaining Thomas Jones and Mike Brown.
But let me rebut your points, anyways…
St Clair didn’t perform to expectation in Chicago, and I’m sure you can find plenty of posts across the blogosphere expressing just that. It is a fact that he not only outperformed his previous outings this season, but that he outperformed the Bears tackles, to include Kevin Shaffer, who he effectively switched positions with at Cleveland.
Mike Brown and Thomas Jones both have performed even better since leaving Chicago.
Mushin Muhammad went from a two time Pro Bowler and one time All-Pro who averaged 75 receptions, 1078 yards and 6 TDs a season as a starter in Carolina, and who had just come off of a 93 reception, league leading 1400 yards and league leading 16 TDs in 2004 where he was first team all-pro and a Pro Bowl Starter. He comes to Chicago and averages 55 receptions, 727 yards and 4 TDs over 3 season. He exits Chicago, returns to Carolina and catches 65 balls for 923 yards and 5 TDs. I’d say he struggled in Chicago a bit, averaging 20 receptions, 350 yards and 2 TDs less than he did before he got here. Oh, I’d say Moose certainly performed elsewhere, and performed here, as well. Silly notion.
Gandy sucked in Chicago, but as a guard instead of his natural Tackle position that he never played in Chicago. Gandy happens to have outperformed the Bears Tackles consistently and to be well respected in the league since joining AZ and starting on the line that has protected Warner into the playoffs and the Super Bowl.
Johnson screwed up, true enough. Yet the Bengals are glad for his services, and Johnson’s transgressions were inflated by the Chicago media, though I can’t exactly blame them. I’d rather they inflate than sweep under the run. It’s good that Chicago still expects it’s players to be role models.
Columbo broke his leg (as I stated, he was injury prone) then went to Dallas and has went on to a great career. With all of the injuries in Chicago that seem to derail promising careers, I wonder if the teams S&C coach and it’s director of physical development are at all responsible.
As far as Gage and Wade go, well, the teams WR coach, pointed to them, along with Berrian, as examples when Moose called out Chicago in Sports Illustrated as the team WRs go to die. Drake stated he was unfazed by Muhammad’s remark, he argued that former Bears wide receivers Bernard Berrian, Justin Gage, and Bobby Wade were able to develop in Chicago, and later lead successful careers after leaving. So I would suggest that yes, the Bears could have used them over the past three years.
And Benson is my favorite. He definitely needed to grow up, but Chicago didn’t help him along any. Then he was harrassed by Austin PD, which was later proven to be the case, and Chicago ditched him. He went on to Cinci to start ahead of Larry Johnson. I’d say he’s doing ok for himself, and that he outperformed the Bears running Backs.
My point was that Chicago seems to have problems developing and utilizing players. All of these players are great examples……..and that’s no BS.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 4, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
A question....
I’ve named a lot of players here who performed better elsewhere. How many have we picked up who performed better here? Ogunleye? Nope. Pace? Nope. Cutler? Nope. Shaffer? Nope Omiyale? Nope. Archuleta? Nope.
I got it! Thomas Jones…….he definitely blossomed here. But he’s still seen more success while constantly being chased by other backs like Leon Washington and Shaun Green with the Jets, while eerily playing for a similar team as his days with Chicago, where the defense runs the show, and the QB has a game managing season. So, Nope.
Anthony Adams might be marginally better than he was in SF. Aromashadu might fit the bill as well. those are really the only players I could point to.
But I honestly could be missing someone. Any thoughts?
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 4, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
I guess one can argue that Desmond Clark has done better in Chicago. Also a guy like Marty Booker had his best days in Chicago
McShay, Todd McShay you hear me boy? It's me TJ and I'm coming for your damn job boy! Oh be scared, be very scared McShay.
by tj.hendricks on Feb 4, 2010 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
WTF ?
At the end of his career you expect Pace to come here and flourish ? Cutler hasn’t settled in yet, give him a while before you retire him. What’s the beef with Shaeffer ? Hasn’t done anything wrong so far. Chris Williams is by far the most penalised player on the team. And Thomas Jones is under-rated not over-rated …
by Irish Bears Fan on Feb 5, 2010 3:07 AM CST up reply actions
rebut...
Didn’t expect Pace to come here and be better. And he wasn’t.
Shaffer was a solid starter in Cleveland who only cracked the starting lineup here because Pace got hurt while having a horrid season run blocking (though to be fair, Pace only gave up 3 sacks in 12 games, so his pass protection was sound) and John St Clair (Yes, our John St Clair) was having a solid season in his spot at Cleveland. I don’t begrudge Shaffer. I think the coaching sucked. That;’s been my point all along. Not sure why you attacked the point, then suggested that I have a problem with the players that I wrote the post to defend.
Don’t know what Williams has to do with anything. He hasn’t played anywhere else, but all of his mental mistakes are just another symptom of poor coaching.
Didn’t say Jones was over-rated before, but I will now. He was a Bust when he got here, remember. &th overall pick by AZ that failed to start in AZ or Tampa. He blossomed here and became continued to improve when he got to NY, holding off guys who would start elsewhere like Leon Washington and Shaun Green. Jones started out a bust, became good but over-rated in Chicago, and became even better and no longer over-rated in NY. But he did improve and have his best seasons in NY, not here.
All of that and you didn’t answer the question, Irish.
BTW, does the name signify decent, or Notre Dame allegiance? (asked because the name would fit me and many here, as I live 5 miles from ND Stadium and there are an awful lot of “Irish Bears Fans” here)
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 7:03 AM CST up reply actions
Whoops.....
Forgot to address Cutler……
Again, I’m not attacking the players. I actually support Cutler more than probably most do. My argument is that it’s the coaching that has Cutler performing at a lower level here that in Denver. Hopefully Martz changes that.
I get the feeling from this post that you misunderstood the point of my post. The point was to defend the players and point out that there is a pattern since Smith came of poor player development and personnel utilization, and that the talent exists right now on this team to be competitive at a high level. It’s the Coaches, not the players, who have held Chicago back over the 3 years defensively and 6 years offensively.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 7:14 AM CST up reply actions
"For whatever reason, none of these players performed well in Chicago..."
Say what you mean. Don’t write that certain players never performed in Chicago and then turn around and say they performed better somewhere else. That’s two different things. Thomas Jones was the same back with Chicago he is in NY -he just has the best line in footbball blocking for him, ditto Benson.
by Irish Bears Fan on Feb 5, 2010 3:04 AM CST up reply actions
False......
Again, I mentioned Jones and Brown in the qualifier that you chose to omit from my statement when you quoted me.
And Shill for Jones all day, brother, but when Jones was here, he danced in the backfield instead of hitting the whole and ran out of bounds too often. With NY, he no longer does those things, and that makes him a better back. He now hits holes with ferocity. I don’t think Jones was lazy when he was here. What I think is that Tim Spencer is one of the worst RB coaches in the league and that Ron Turner had absolutely no idea how to utilize a running back to his potential. And it should also be noted that while Jones does run behind a fine line today, he ran behind a good line in 05 and 06. There’s a reason that the ‘06 HBs all averaged over 4 yards a carry. The line was solid back then. More solid than most seem to remember. In 06, Chicago was 5th in Sacks allowed, and were 11th in the league in rushing. Jones got better. I’m not saying he was bad here. He was not. But his technique has improved since he left.
As far the “ditto Benson”. You might want to check again. The Bengals were the 9th ranked rushing offense, and their line and stats looks an awful lot like Chicago’s did in ‘06, except that they allow a lot more sacks. But the rushing stats are very similar. The difference is that Cinci allows enough attempts for downhill rushers and doesn’t abandon the run. Again, coaching.
I’m not so sure what you are all jacked up about. Sounds to me like we both support the notion that the players are pretty talented.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 7:46 AM CST up reply actions
Gotta give it to you
Train, I’ve only been on the board for a few weeks and have quickly identified you as a guy who gets the scope of a nfl team lies in many directions. However, I’m disappointed you’re a ND fan, after reading many of your post, I thought you were smarter than that… think this Iris guy just might be a troll, but I’m new so I very well could be wrong
Epic Fail with the reply button......
Sorry. “Why disappointed?” below should have been a reply here, but I failed with the reply button……..my bad.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
I think you are stretching things a little
with the performance of these former players. St Clair was poor for Cleveland, my friend is a season ticket holder for them and they are not enamored with him whatsoever. Mike Brown couldn’t cover anyone the last few years, he was a great leader on defense and we miss his positioning everyone on the field but he still can’t cover any longer. Gandy? what has he been with 5 teams?? he is a barely average journeyman player who blocks for up until this year one of the worst run blocking teams in the NFL. Moose was completely underutilzed and I agree that we wasted him while he was here. And I can’t believe you are using the word “great” and Columbo in the same sentence. Another average guy who I saw play numerous time this year and was unspectacular and beaten regularly by any speed rushers on his side. Most of these players you mention are average talent who were better utilized by superior coaching, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t average..
" Former Original WCG Power Poster!"
Why disappointed?
I’m a loyalist. I’ve always been a ND fan, being raised so close to the School. I’ll always love the Bears and Cubs. I’ll always love the Pistons and Redwings. You can tell where I lived when my interest grew for a sport. I grew up in my younger years in South bend, And the local teams were the Bears and Cubs for football and baseball. I moved to Detroit, and while there discovered basketball and hockey. I’ll always love those teams, and ND, through good patches and bad.
Why, who did you think I would root for?
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 9:48 AM CST reply actions
Bears, Bulls, & Sox
Its “SOUTH” Bend dude what’s up with the sox? The disappointed thing was just a little good natured ribbing as I don’t like em at all. As for college sports, I don’t have “a team” outside of my alma mater but we’re 1AA in football and mid major in hoops.
Repeat Offender, see below.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
South Sox.....
It might be SOUTH Bend, but I was born in Evanston. Northside baby! Go Cubbies!!!!!!
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 12:37 PM CST reply actions
And Besides......
Papa Bear was a cubs fan!
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 5, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
thumbs up to this post
only question/disagreement i may have concerns mike brown. without bothering to spend 2 minutes to look up stats or any useless info like that (sarcasm now ended) i was under the impression mike didn’t do so hot in chiefsville. i remember him getting embarrassed repeatedly by the likes of miles austin and other big wr’s when watching sportscenter.
i can’t even begin to imagine him having a better year than he did in that awesome 2001 regular season. those back-to-back ot wins that he brought to chicago are the stuff of legend.
Brown posted.....
the best statistical season of his career with 103 tackles, 3 INTs and 1 fumble recovery while starting all 16 games with the Chiefs. He was called out in a 3 point loss to the Baltimore Ravens and in the career day Miles Austin had against the Chiefs, true enough, but most of that press came because Shannon Sharpe made fun of Brown during the halftime show of the Ravens game.
An un-named NFC coach called Brown a steal for the Chiefs and said he looked as good as he did in his early years in Chicago (in the before Lovie era) and Todd Haley had nothing but good things to say about Brown and what he brought to the Chiefs this season.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 7, 2010 1:46 AM CST up reply actions
well then
i stand corrected i believe. i didn’t even see sharpe make fun of him but stats aside it is nice to see him play a full season. good looking out on the stats info, although now that my opinion has changed a bit it merely makes me more annoyed at a certain gm at halas hall.
by reefermadness3 on Feb 8, 2010 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
Should make you more annyed at Lovie......
Interviews since the Turner firing and from the ’09 draft have left the impression that Angelo is more of an after the fact guy. Smith decides if he wants a player, then Angelo tries to get the best value for him, if he can find any takers.
I have plenty of reasons to be pissed at Jerry, but I found that I have even more reasons to be pissed at Lovie.
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints - T-Train.
Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Feb 8, 2010 7:27 AM CST up reply actions
Nice Post.
But weren’t Brown and Jones pretty good when they were here? And I really can’t blame them for Colombo.
Other than that I’m with ya.
by GentleGoodnight on Feb 10, 2010 8:50 PM CST reply actions
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