A letter to Peter King, on Cutler and Orton
I know, I shouldn't let an idiot like Peter King raise my dander. But his most recent illogical foray into statistics really got my goat, and I had to vent to him. For those of you that missed it this past week,here's a quick synopsis:
The numbers, and the impact, don't lie.
In the NFL, a 20-game sample is enough to make a valid comparison. And on the basis of 20 games, it's hard to argue that Chicago got the better of the Jay Cutler-for-Kyle Orton deal. Forget the ancillary parts of the deal; Denver has not drafted well, and I'm not doing this item to get into the value of the two first-round picks and the third-rounder (which turned into Mike Wallace for the Steelers) acquired by Denver in the deal.
QB W-L Pct. Yards TD-Int Yds/att Rating
Orton 10-9 .634 5,221 27-15 7.29 89.1
Cutler 10-10 .615 4,578 33-29 6.97 80.7
It's still very early, and we don't know if Orton can keep it up. He's going to have Tim Tebow breathing down his neck in a few months, I'd guess. But he's outplaying Cutler right now. When a quarterback is more accurate and has the better average per pass attempt, that means he's moving the chains and getting the ball downfield. Right now, Orton's better at both.
Here is my letter in response to King's shoddy statistical analysis. I originally wrote one that was much more sarcastic, and then toned it down so there might be a snowball's chance in hell that he would use parts of it:
Peter,
Question: If you wrote reviews for an automobile magazine, and you tested one vehicle with great tires (O-Line), an experienced driver (O-Coordinator), on a smooth racetrack (quality of opponents), and then tested another with poor tires, an inexperienced driver, on a bumpy track – would anyone take your review the least bit seriously when you declared that the former automobile had performed better than the latter? Well, that’s essentially what you did with your review of Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler this past week.
If you had brought that analysis to my desk in a workplace situation, I would have told you that your analysis is meaningless. You did not control for the effect of the offensive coordinator, the offensive line, the wide receivers, the quality of opponents faced by the two quarterbacks, etc. For example, in four games this season, Cutler has faced three top-ten defenses, and Orton only one. Are these situations truly equal? By not controlling for this factor, nor even mentioning it or other assumptions, you are tacitly stating that yes, they are equal situations.
Here are some hints for you. If you want to bring meaning to numbers, you should compare equal situations – i.e. you must CONTROL for certain factors. If you want to use Jay Cutler’s first 20 games with the Bears as a measuring-stick, what does that have to do with Kyle Orton’s first 20 games as a Bronco? A more meaningful comparison would be one against Kyle Orton’s last 20 games as a Bear. Then you could control for the Bears’ offensive line and offensive coordinator - if not exactly, at least much more reasonably. Orton played his last 20 games with Lovie Smith, Ron Turner, Olin Kreutz, Roberto Garza, etc. Cutler has played his first 20 games with many of the same folks, although only 16 games with Turner and 4 with Martz.
In fact, you SHOULD have known this just by looking at the career numbers by season for Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler – for example, average yards per attempt. Orton averaged 5.1, 6.0, and 6.4 with the Bears; then 7.0 and 8.1 with the Broncos. Did Kyle Orton morph into a completely different player overnight, or might this have been due to the change in environment? And how about Cutler: 7.3, 7.5, 7.3 with the Broncos; then 6.6 with Ron Turner, and 8.9 with Mike Martz. Hmmm….notice anything now?
To save you the trouble and work that you obviously overlooked or didn’t want to perform in the first place, I’ve calculated the numbers for Orton’s last 20 games started for the Bears, and Cutler’s for 20 games started for the Bears:
Kyle Orton: 176 y/g, 56.7% comp, 6.2 y/a, 21 TD, 14 INT, 33 sacks, 37 passes 20+, 4 passes 40+
Jay Cutler: 229 y/g, 61.5% comp, 7.0 y/a, 33 TD, 29 INT, 42 sacks, 68 passes 20+, 8 passes 40+
Can you honestly write, after looking at these numbers, that Jay Cutler has performed WORSE for the Chicago Bears than Kyle Orton had? Come on – it’s obvious that Cutler has been a much better QB for the Bears than Orton ever had. Sure, he throws more INTs, but also more TDs for a higher average per pass and per game, and he stretches the defense with long passes far more often. (And this analysis doesn’t take into account their running and scrambling abilities, which would again favor Cutler).
Comparing the statistics of these 2 QBs in different systems and environments has no meaning whatsoever, and only shows that you wanted to prove the point that Denver got the better of the deal before you ever started. You cherry-picked stats that proved your point, apparently without realizing that the situations had absolutely nothing in common, other than the two players analyzed were involved in a trade together.
Oh, and as for the draft picks involved in the trade that were sent to Denver? You also seem to have conveniently forgotten that the Bears received a 5th-rounder in the deal. His name is Johnny Knox, and he’s pretty darn good.
This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.
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Good Job
proves what a useless OC Turner was and how much better a QB plays behind a better OL with better recievers.
by 62bearsthe best on Oct 10, 2010 10:15 AM CDT reply actions
shut it King
"I'd rather have an ugly win than an ugly loss. Yeah, they had a lot of yards, but yards don't mean crap. Points do." -Brian Urlacher
by BearNecessities on Oct 10, 2010 10:28 AM CDT reply actions
I applaud your post
Now I hope we all can keep this as an indictment of Peter King’s story…
And not an indictment of Kyle Orton.
This is NOT an indictment of Orton...
…not that you implied that it was.
In fact, as Bears fans, we don’t even care about the question: “Who would be a better QB for the Denver Broncos?” Maybe the answer truly is Kyle Orton.
The question for us and the Bears is: “Who has been, and will be, a better QB for the Chicago Bears?” This means we must consider the two respective QBs within the Bears’ system, playing for the Bears. And with the same, or very similar, coaches, offensive line, WRs, defensive support, and opponents – the answer is “Jay Cutler”. Unlike Peter King, I’m not sure how you could argue against Cutler.
Peter King’s analysis would be no more valid in comparing two players tied together by an off-the-field incident (a trade), than if Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler were from the same home town or had wives with the same first name. Why not compare Kyle Orton’s numbers to Tom Brady’s or Peyton Manning’s last 20 games, and declare Orton better (or not)? Sheesh, right?
by Sweetness Lives On on Oct 10, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dig your post
I’m just confused why King would say “Hard to argue Chicago got the better end of the deal” and then spill out stats favoring Orton. That would seem to em he’s saying despite Cutler’s worse numbers, he’s the better player and Chicago did well.
"I feel like the pieces are in place. But we have to execute...It's about execution. You have to execute. You have to have a scheme that facilitates the strengths of your players. If it doesn't, then it's a bad scheme. It's that simple. So we feel real good about the parts in place on offense."
"We feel very good about this football team. We felt very good about our football teams in the past and it's no different. You've got to go out there and you've got to do it."
-Jerry Angelo, Aug. 2, 2010
by Sam Householder on Oct 10, 2010 10:50 AM CDT reply actions
thought the same thing.
It was just poorly written. Big shock, right?!?
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by David Taylor on Oct 11, 2010 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I haven't even bothered reading SI
since Zimmerman had his stroke. I really wish he’d start writing again.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
People who have jumped on the notion that Orton is better than Cutler are sooooo wrong.
Those of us who painfully watched Orton throw 5 yard short passes on 3rd and 10 know that he wasnt the qb of the future for us.
Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos
by chicago030 on Oct 10, 2010 11:12 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
with he Oline we have
no one is the qb of the future, which is what most “analysts” miss
"I'd rather have an ugly win than an ugly loss. Yeah, they had a lot of yards, but yards don't mean crap. Points do." -Brian Urlacher
by BearNecessities on Oct 10, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
The WCG community does better analysis than ESPN and the like.
Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos
by chicago030 on Oct 10, 2010 7:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Can't we just let this subject die once and for all?
Who cares???
Orton’s doing great with Denver, and I’m glad for him.
Cutler’s playing very well for us (outside of last week), and I’m glad he’s here.
Enough of this high school sh*t of who got the better end of the deal because unless one or both of these teams wins a Super Bowl in the next few years, then it wasn’t a great trade for anybody.
I think you might misunderstand my intentions...
…but I clearly stated that Peter King’s shoddy statistical analysis raised my dander.
However, if you mean the subject of Peter King’s lack of basic statistical methodology dying once and for all, yes…maybe I shouldn’t have beaten a dead horse.
Otherwise, you clearly missed my main point.
by Sweetness Lives On on Oct 10, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Nah the subject won't just die once in for all.
As long as guys like Peter King can’t wait to make proclamations 4 weeks into a new season, fans of Jay or people with opinions of the trade have the right to discuss it. I’ve noticed a slow but steady bandwagon starting to take shape of guys like Peter King and even local guys saying thing like “You know, if we could do it over maybe we shouldn’t have made that trade.” And that’s just BS.
Yeah but it worked!
Yes you should. That was anal. lol
Yeah but it worked!
Peter King is a yuppy, front running,
northeastern douche bag. Well done, sir.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
by CoachEtch on Oct 10, 2010 9:47 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
kudos to you sir
for taking the time to refute the latest garbage trotted out by lazy national sportswriters.
by reefermadness3 on Oct 10, 2010 9:52 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Why anyone cares what that fool King thinks is the real question.
King is probably still pissed that the Bears did not do as well as he predicted last year so he is now going to trash them every chance he gets, Cutler in particular.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
he has them behind the packers in this weeks "power rankings"
He has the packers ranked 6th and the bears 11th despite the fact that the bears have a better record and BEAT THEM head to head. Not that power rankings matter but it’s the point. BTW he also picked the panthers to go to the playoffs this year so it shows what he knows.
by garyfencikrapping on Oct 11, 2010 12:31 PM CDT reply actions
After the way the Bears played against NY
I’m surprised they were at 11.
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by David Taylor on Oct 11, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Peter King is a d-bag
One time while a young lad, someone made fun of the Ditka name. One time.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Oct 11, 2010 2:03 PM CDT reply actions
Good Perspective
The one crazy thing about Orton is he is putting up big numbers throwing to Brandon Lloyd and Jabar Gaffney. Also, his numbers are somewhat inflated by the Broncos complete lack of a running game. They are only averaging 52 yards a game on the ground. Dead last in the NFL by a long shot.
Another interesting point is Wins/Losses, since that is the ultimate goal for the teams in terms of trade value. Orton is 10-11 as a Bronco, and Cutler is 10-10 as a Bear. At this point the trade is a complete wash.
One big difference
The big difference for Orton is that he’s passing behind an excellent O-line. That gives him plenty of time to find open receivers.
What I don’t get it, why they can’t run behind that O-line. Maybe they just don’t WANT to.
I really want both to succeed and this to die
But the Denver line isn’t good, they are the reason they can’t run, and Orton is getting hit almost as often as Cutler. Don’t use that excuse.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Orton
didn’t get sacked 9 times ans hit 17 times before the half!
(Sing song)...Everybody Hates Rondo...
That's happened before
Orton is getting sacked and hit almost as often as Cutler is.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
What?
Sorry, but that is just ridiculous. Orton has been sacked 13 times on 260 passing plays. That’s one sack every 20 times Orton drops back. Cutler has been dropped 23 times in 164 passing attempts. or 1 sack for every 7 times Jay dropped back. That’s a HUGE difference, not “almost as often”. Not even close.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Oct 20, 2010 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Orton's Oline has given up almost as many sacks as the Bears...
They have 2 rookies starting and the 2 stars they have are recovering from injury…that is why their running game is so bad too
False.
The Bronco’s Line has allowed 13 sacks (source). The Bears line has allowed 27 sacks (source). Making it worse is that Denver has ran 260 passing plays and only allowed 13 sacks while Chicago has only run 202 passing plays and allowed 27 sacks.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Oct 20, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
In all fairness to King,
with those pics of Favre being released, I think he may have been otherwise occupied. I’d say there’s an above-average chance that he hasn’t left his room since seeing them.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Oct 12, 2010 4:17 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
That is awesome.
Reluctantly (for the ew factor) wrecked (for the awesome factor)
I need a new signature.
Well written, well stated, and well received. Rec for you.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Oct 12, 2010 8:03 AM CDT reply actions
Great logic, good read. Well done
Cubs Flu got you down this fall? Take a good ol' dose of Bears Fever to fix you right up
Top Five All-Time
24 recs – A letter to Peter King, on Cutler and Orton by Sweetness Lives On
21 recs – As a Denver Fan Since 1962… by Mike Clark
18 recs – The Many Faces of Lovie Smith by David Taylor
14 recs – General Thread for Broncos & Orton Fans by Dane Noble
13 recs – What is with this sudden and overplayed outburst of the need for a WR by ANYTIME09
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by David Taylor on Oct 20, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Oops.
There’s a three way tie for fifth, number five above and:
13 recs – The Poison Pill Strategy: Should the Bears Use It? by PolishSausage.Ditka.Bears
13 recs – Rough Draft: A (Not-So) Brief History of the… by MrSportsKnowItAll
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cheekymonkeyart.com | follow me on facebook and twitter
by David Taylor on Oct 20, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
i thank you sir
Guns dont kill people. Brian Urlacher kills people.
by Bear Lovin 21 on Oct 20, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You might want to add your Halloween post
which by my last check is sitting firmly at 15.
David Taylor's personal hype man. Check out his website unless you're a loser. http://www.cheekymonkeyart.com/
by Ditkavsworld on Oct 21, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions

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