Peyton Manning and Jay Cutler

By your tone, I have to assume that you don’t think those two points are factors. Seriously? It surprises you that people think that (OMG) a less than mobile QB with a history of holding on to the ball too long might have some fault in being sacked? It’s not exactly a new idea. Meanwhile, you also take issue with the idea that people credit a mobile QB with avoiding sacks. Have you been watching the games, David? Cutler has been avoiding sacks with his feet and that credit should go to him. He’s a big boy who makes the big money, right? Some of the praise should fall on his shoulders. He can take it. Just as Orton is the big Boy who makes the big pays and he should shoulder the blame, right? I find it funny and a bit maddening that you are so free with disseminating blame to Cutler, but when it’s time to dish out praise, you seem to get anxiety over someone pointing the finger in Cutler’s direction. Meanwhile, when someone heaves a bit of blame Orton’s way, then you want to go all Johnothan Ogdan and protect the QB.

Sorry, but it’s ludicrous to look at a guy having to run away from the defensive line so much and then listen to someone talk about how its the line improving that has diminished the sack numbers, not the QB. Of course, the line has improved a bit, the implementation of rollouts has helped some too, a well as better playcalling and a QB who has been using his feet better and getting the ball out faster.

My biggest problem here is understanding why you are so down on Cutler. You point out that he makes mistakes (which of course, he does) like it’s something he is alone in. The whole point of this post was to obviously to combat that attitude. Nobody is calling Cutler God. The argument is that he’s not as bad as people like you are making him sound. I find it funny that you jump to dismiss Cutler while jumping to defend Kyle Orton (who I like, and I have exactly zero problems with game managing QBs, They serve a purpose), who is 11-17 as a starter in Denver with better defenses than Jay went 15-17 with in the previous 2 years.

For the record, I think the fact that McNugget is looking to replace Orton is along the same lines as looking to replace Cutler. Being a good game manager who is developing the other aspects of your game is not a bad thing, hence the low number of INTs. Orton is only going to improve,

And, David……for all of your complaining about making excuses for him, you make just as many excuses for why he isn’t good. What I don’t get is why you make more excuses for Denver’s QB than for the Bears’ quarterback. Again, nobody is saying Cutler is great. They are saying that he is better than those who dismiss him admit. He still has a long way to go. I wouldn’t put him in the top 10 in the league.

regarding Cutler v. Orton?

I’m not sure if this was supposed to be a funny response or a serious one. No, seriously.

I guess I’ll take this as serious. First you’ll notice what I put in parenthesis “as you should”. That should have been the first indicator that I was pointing out hypocrisy, not arguing that Orton was bad.

Take a minute and read that first paragraph again.

So you give Orton a pass…
for less than stellar performance in Chicago (as you should) but then talk about how Jay isn’t as good as people who are just arguing that every QB makes mistakes and maybe Cutler isn’t as bad as they make him sound say he is.

I noted that you used the same argument to “justify mistakes” (your words, not mine) thrown on Orton (Unjustly, I would add) that I used on another thread that you just referenced to counter the same type of argument against Jay. Of course, both make mistakes (that is another point I have made) but both are over-scrutinized (though for different reasons). The whole game manger thing with Orton is truth. That’s what he is. My problem with it is that people use the phrase like it’s a bad thing. Managing the game is far from bad. Orton is efficient, plays to his strengths and plays the game smart and selflessly. He has average to slightly below average physical skills combined with above average smarts and sense of team. Some people make him out to be garbage, and they are wrong. Some people make him out to be almost elite, and they are wrong, as well. But just being a game manager does not make him bad. That’s just stupid. I would call him an above average QB. No qualifiers or other describers needed. he is above average.

The second paragraph was nothing more than an illustration of all that I thought was wrong with your argument from our previous conversation on another thread. I used your argument as it applied to Orton. If the QB shoulders all the blame because he’s a big boy and makes the big bucks, then it would apply to Orton as well. this is what I was referring to above, when I said I found it funny that you jumped to dismiss Cutler while jumping to defend Orton. But you’ll note, that at the end I pointed out that it was the defense that fell apart on Orton last year (Just as it did to Cutler last year and in his final two seasons in Denver) and then reverted back to your argument from the previous thread. Orton has played great in Denver, and the team record in no way reflects his play, just as it did not when Cutler was in Denver for the same reasons. In other words, throwing all the blame at the QB is burying your head in the sand, regardless of how big their paycheck is.

In other words, I wasn’t downing Orton. I was pointing out how this conversation related to our previous one. The Ron Turner system screwed every QB that ever played under it. That’s what happened to Grossman, Cutler and Orton. Of course, they made their own mistakes, but the system set them up for failure.

I’m sorry to play it this way, my friend, but I was trying to make a point. When Orton was challenged, you reverted to all the things I said about Cutler for the benefit of your argument. From my system argument, to how many different factors affect a QBs stats to people downplaying a QB to boost another one.

Come on, my friend. Gimme credit. You played right into my hand, even using my argument, that you argued against just the other day, to try and make your point. Mwahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!

I love you, though! You are still the most photoshoppinest, lyrically talented and cheeky little monkey I know! 8D

I agreed with you completely.

I’m not downing Forte in the example. What I am saying is that the routes for a system impact the YPC and YAC of a player. The example illustrates that. It also illustrates the other part of my point, which is that there are more factors to a players YAC and YPC than just how good a receiver is.

For the record, as far as I am concerned, Forte is not only Elite, as far as receiving goes, for an RB, but possibly the best receiver out of the backfield in the league. And this season is not what makes that clear to me, but the last two. He was one of the best in the league in a Ron Turner system. That speaks volumes to his ability as a receiver out of the backfield.

Wes Welker the best slot receiver in the league, bar none. He is the very nest at his position, and thus is very much in the “Elite” catagory. Slot is a very different position from the outside and has it’s own challenges and learning curve. Ask Devin Aromashodu, who acoording to Mike Martz, could not learn the position. Welker is the very best there is, and not even arguably, in my opinion, at his position.

Now, as to shorter routs being easier to run, Not so. Routes are routes. The require a player to remember where he is supposed to be, avoid defenders and run the proper lines just as much as a long route, and in some cases even more so. The routes aren’t harder to run, the completions are harder to make. The QB has to be accurate at a greater distance, and since a deeper route has less directional changes, DBs have to worry more about being burned thann being juked by a WR. But, receivers also have more time to shake a DB on longer routes and have more time for DBs to make mistakes, as a DB has to keep his eyes on the QB longer, and must also try to maintain with a WR, where as shorter routes require a receiver to get quicker separation and offers less time for a DB to screw up. Of course, this is why they say if a QB has enough time in the pocket, someone will come open. Longer routes require more time.

But what you can say is that shorter routes are harder to get a higher YAC and YPC from, as you have more defenders in front of you. And that in systems that utilize shorter routes more frequently, like anything from the Walsh coaching tree, which includes Mike Shanahan, George Seifert, Mike Holmgren and Andy Reid as well as the Perkins and Zampese shoots of the Coryell Tree, like Parcells, Sparano, Belichick, Jimmy Johnson, Mike Martz and Norv Turner, Receivers often see lower YPC and YAC because of so many underneath routes and the tendancy to use the short passing game as an extention of the running game. Those short passes lower the YPC numbers.

Now, if YPC is you bar for Elite, I guess that (since you threw out Wes Welker, I have to do this, lol) your most Elite receivers this season would be……All receivers “qualified” to lead the league (no 5 receptions players, in other words)

Mike Wallace – 21.2 YPC
Anthony Armstrong – 20.7
DeSean Jackson – 20.1
Malcom Floyd – 19.6
Brandon Lloyd – 19.2
Kenny Britt – 18.9
Patrick Crayton – 18.4
Johnny Knox – 18.0
Braylon Edwards – 17.8
Robert Meachum – 16.6

Now, there are some decent names in there. But elite receivers? These are the guys your math puts on top?

Some guys I think are Elite or at least above average along with the players just ahead of above them, just for fun….

Andre Johnson #28
preceded by Roy Williams #24

Calvin Johnson #31
preceded by Josh Morgan #30

Roddy White #56 and Larry Fitzgerald #57
preceded by Santana Moss #55, Mike Williams #54 and Mercedes Lewis #53

Reggie Wayne #65
preceded by Jordan Shipley #63 and Jabar Gaffney #63

Brandon Marshall #70
preceded by Roscoe Parrish #69 and Tony Moeaki #68

Austin Collie #86
preceded by Early Doucet #85 and Brent Celek #84

How can YPC be a measure of the “eliteness” of a WR if the three players widely considered to be the best in the league are ranked 28th, 31st and 57th with guys like Roy Williams, Josh Morgan, and Santana Moss topping them, not to mention guys like Mike Wallace and Anthony Armstrong being #1 and #2?

For further evidence, here are your Career YPC leaders for receivers who played in the modern passing era (We’ll say that they had to have played at least part of their careers from 1980 on)

Flipper Anderson
Willie Gault
Dokie Williams
Stanley Morgan
Wesley Walker (Not the spelling, this is not Wes W*e*lker)
Mel Gray
Devery Henderson
Roger Carr
Chris Sanders
Stephen Baker

Notice Anything about that group? There is your top 10, and while we all love us some Willie Gault, I don’t think any of us ever thought of Fast Wilie as Elite. As a matter of fact, none of these receivers were elite receivers. Some of them had a couple of good years, like flipper and his 2 good seasons, but none of these guys were ever considered Elite Receivers in the game.