Desperation v. Deference to Better Football Minds
by No It All on Mar 11, 2010 11:01 AM CST
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PrintSure there were press conferences and the like, but you're telling me it wasn't until now that the Bears caught on to the fact that they were a bad football team, desperate? For a long time the stories wafting from Halas Hall did not pass the smell or the laugh test.
As a Bears fan I am thrilled with their moves in free agency, so far. Nonetheless, I do not think the Bears finally decided to make moves worthy of a premier NFL franchise because they finally saw the light. While I am not privileged as to the inner workings of Halas Hall (shocking isn't it?!), I think it was the presence of Mike Martz and Mike Tice that guided the Bears away from pseudo-shrewd business decisions and towards making moves more likely to win football games.
NOTE: One may say "the desperation led them to bring in these better football minds". Maybe so, but the question still remains why it took so long to take such obvious NFL franchise baby steps in the right direction?
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I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal Graves
Writer at windycitygridiron.com -/-I http://www.twitter.com/kdoggers
Every once in a while you need to put out a good product
or make it look like you’re “trying”… if this season stinks, then guess what happens next year to keep us hooked…new staff. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS… back to accepted mediocrity after that.
wash, rinse, repeat….keeps the sheep in line, and paying
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 11, 2010 11:19 AM CST reply actions
Unless the Cowher reports are true...
Then i’m not so sure about the mediocrity part
Do or do not there is not try-Master Yoda
Sometimes you need an outside perspective on things...
Maybe Tice and Martz helped them realize they need to up grade the roster
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 11, 2010 11:25 AM CST reply actions
I don't know
I doubt that Tice and/or Martz had anything to do with making Peppers the highest paid defensive player in the NFL.
Did Martz want a blocking TE? Yes. Did he also want a solid, proven alternative to Forte who can block, catch and run? Yes.
So in that sense, he got what he wanted. Whether they will help to win games remains to be seen but they do seem to fit his philosophy so he can’t blame anyone for not supplying him with the tools he needed.
I do believe that the Bears overpaid (possibly at the expense of overpaying for an FA free safety) for both of those guys, but whatever—got to give Cutler his tools, right?
Yes, those were obvious wants and needs
i suppose the hypothetical question I am asking is whether or not these moves get done without Martz and/or Tice? Not in respect to how they picked their specific guys or made preferences or requests, but in regards to making such obvious moves in a different and better direction.
There you go.
"I am not an animal!" - Merrick
by Maelvampyre on Mar 11, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
I see your point...
and you may be right. If the Bears had another weak-ass offensive coordinator and left offensive personnel decisions to Jerry and Lovie, I doubt those two would have been signed and in fact we probably wouldn’t have done too much on the offensive side of the ball. Generally though, the splash in FA is because Jerry and Lovie are trying to save their jobs.
Agreed..
don’t think it would have got done minus Martz, Tice, and Marinelli as D-coord. Jerry and Lovie saving their jobs is the most influential part of the equation imo, none of this gets done if thats not the case. No new coaches or FA’s of the caliber we just landed.
Walter Payton lives on!!!
by monsterman34 on Mar 11, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
Um... I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Ted Phillips, Jerry Angelo, and Lovie Smith were in desperation mode to save their jobs. And that’s how all of the changes this off-season came about.
They managed to convince the family to retain them for one more year, and a pending lockout situation in 2011 helped their cause. So, instead of firing all three, and buying out the remainder of their contracts, while also having to hire 3 people to replace them (Team President, GM, and Head Coach)… the family spent a similar amount of money on the combined guaranteed dollars owed on the contracts for Peppers, Taylor, and Manu.
It’s business as usual… and the McCaskey family may have actually saved money this offseason, but you have to read below the surface to see that.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
That's pretty much...
how I see it too.
The only point I would make is that the specific signings of Taylor at RB and BM at TE are very much a result of the system Martz wants to run.
ok i see what you are saying
regarding financials, especially when you factor in the long term return on the investment of these players v. short term yet large burden of breaching the contracts with stooges.
but would we have been looking at vanden bosch as our biggest signing if Martz and Tice had not replaced the yes men of coordinators past?
Peppers was LOVIE'S target man
Lovie wanted him all along, and he was the target as soon as Lovie knew he was keeping his job for another year. Lovie flew o ut to Carolina himself, and escorted him back. The hirings on the offensive side of the ball had no impact on that plan. Peppers is to Chicago, what Simeon Rice was to Lovie and Marinelli in Tampa.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
2010: A Free Agent Odyssey
Does that make Jerry Angelo HAL???
Unreasonable people make life difficult...
by WisBearsFan34 on Mar 11, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
The McCaskeys, JA and TP are the monkeys from 2001
Bears are the monolith.
Grossman is Hal.
Cutler is 2001’s protagonist.
Peppers is 2010’s protagonist.
How do you know that
Marinelli wasn’t the one telling Lovie, “you have to get Peppers, I can’t make it work with these other guys”. Nothing you said disproves NoItAll’s point that having a strong O and D coordinator means that Lovie and Jerry have to listen to them when they say they need different players to make it work. You can force player’s on the Bob Babich’s of the world, but you don’t tell Martz, Tice, and Marinelli that you know more about a player’s ability than they do.
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
How did Marinelli...
get into the discussion? The OP is about Tice and Martz…
And to your point: Lovie who has been the D coordinator here since he showed Ron Rivera the door after the defense led us to the super bowl, doesn’t need Marinelli to tell him what he needs. Lovie KNOWS exactly what he needs (or at least he thinks he does.)
It’s pretty obvious that the Bears wanted Peppers badly and there is enough history of Lovie trying to get Peppers back in the day to make this point pretty clear. Don’t cha think?
Long answer: Marinelli wasn't specifically excluded
and if you’re talking about deferring to respected football minds under Lovie, then it makes no sense to not include Marinelli. He arrived with more hype than either of the other two.
Short answer: He’s in it because I put him in it.
I do think that Lovie wanted Peppers strongly. I’m willing to assume that he was the main force behind this, but that doesn’t make it fact. For all we know Angelo would have done this no matter what. I certainly think Marinelli had something to with the Gaines Adams trade last year. It makes sense to me that after he worked with the linemen, the resident “lineman guru” made a report upstairs on what the Bears had and what they needed.
My main point is that no one knows how much these respected coaches matter in personnel decisions, but i’d bet money their impact is not zero. If you bring in Marinelli to coach the linemen and there’s still no pass rush, you either have to conclude that he or the players aren’t good enough. Since you brought him in as a genius it’s not going to be him taking the blame unless you do too. Same way with Martz this year. You can’t afford for him to fail, because after that you have to admit you’re completely out of ideas. Therefore you give him whatever he says he needs to make the offensive productive.
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
I don't disagree--
I’m sure Marinelli and Lovie have been plotting and planning like crazy on how to get Peppers. And, as I said above, I’m sure Martz had the most influence in selecting Taylor and BM— more so than even Lovie actually.
What I refute is that somehow the Bears would have made not made a splash in FA without having Martz and Tice on the staff which is how this thread developed.
Love flew to Carolina to serenade Peppers himself.
Why is this even a discussion?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
definitely possible
i don’t know the dynamic well enough, but as a holdover I simply made a false assumption about Rod’s influence or lack of.
Agree with NIA
Sometimes it is a question of personalities driving the agenda, not just numbers. I think it is a good and valid observation that Martz and/or Tice could have had a vast effect on what the Bears have done in FA so far, and in the upcoming draft.
"I am not an animal!" - Merrick
I don't believe that...
Martz/Tice had a thing to do with signing Peppers to the largest contract in Bears history. I’m sure they were in a couple of meetings and were very supportive of their new bosses when they discussed the possibility (as long as it didn’t prevent them from getting their targeted guys) but other than that, this is ALL about numbers and that decision rested with JA/Ted and Virgina and crew.
meh
1. If they had nothing to do with it, that is a problem.
2. That same crew has proven content in the past with getting what would have been this years vanden bosch. The notion that NOW it has finally occurred to them that losing can be bad for the bottom line and career longevity is ludicrous.
I guess i am just imagining the pre FA dialogue in my head but:
JA/Phillips: “So we are going to target Kyle Vanden Bosh”
Martz/Tice: “You do know Julius Peppers is a free agent?”
JA/TP: “Yeah but.”
Martz/Tice: “But what?”
JA/TP: “I dunno.”
We all knew they had money to spend. But they always have. They simply have now decided to appropriate it dare i say responsibly.
I don’t think it was all about finally opening up the wallet, because the money has always been there. I don’t really understand how next year will work out and how these deals would benefit us financially in the future with regards to the CBA so maybe that is where the $ aspect is more important then I am figuring.
I think you're
going waaaay out on a limb here man. Are you suggesting the Bears have been cheap under Jerry? That has been proven false many times. And the notion that Jerry Angelo and Ted Philipps sit down with Lovie’s offensive staff to talk about signing Julius Peppers? Huh?
newsflash
guys like Martz and Tice who have been head coaches and even rookie coordinators need to communicate with their counterparts. You portray it as if there is a gag order preventing our football minds from talking to each other. I have often agreed that i don’t think these guys just sit around watching football together, but I to not bounce something off of guys like Martz and Tice because it is defense related would be negligent.
No doubt...
But that isn’t really what you were describing in some of the earlier posts. Point is: If the Bears had hired any other offensive coordinator candidates and/or stayed with Ron Turner, I still think we would have gone after Peppers with the same agressive approach we took. I really don’t think it has to do with Tice and Martz. That’s all.
Sure, NIA’s gone out on a limb just like a lot of other folks who post on here while spinning numbers left and right. Since a negative cannot be proven, we’ll never know the truth to this discussion, but as NIA says, Tice and Martz have been head coaches and are both strong personalities who aspire to be head coaches again, and if someone thinks they keep their thoughts exclusively on the offensive side of the ball, they are naive. Thinking outside of the box is a good thing.
"I am not an animal!" - Merrick
by Maelvampyre on Mar 11, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough:
I agree with these points:
1. Tice and Martz have both been head coaches
2. Tice and Martz are strong personalities
3. Tice and Martz want to be HC’s again ( I would guess)
4. Tice and Martz are definitely willinig to give input on ALL personnel issues when asked.
5. Thinking outside of the box is a good thing (although I’m not sure I understand how you see this relating to the debate.)
But, let’s get back to the real issue:
Do you believe that the Bears still would have signed Peppers if we had Ron Turner and Harry Heinstead or any other potential Offensive coaching leaders?
I say, “yes” because the real decision makers (Moe, Larry and Curly) are desperately trying to save their jobs. It has nothing to do with the offensive coaching staff they have assembled.
Maybe they just pulled Fre Agent names out of a hat
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 11, 2010 1:01 PM CST reply actions
Hopefully they will pull Atogwe out of their act.
by DaHamsta on Mar 11, 2010 3:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
In a process of elimination?
"I am not an animal!" - Merrick
by Maelvampyre on Mar 11, 2010 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
Cutler
We went and got Cutler before the two new offensive minds came on board. We weren’t in so called ‘desperation’ mode then. I think the lack of draft picks made us go hard in FA. If Adams was still alive, would we have gotten Peppers?
Space Mountain on Three; One, Two, Three, Space Mountain!
agreed...
After Lovie won coach of the year, then took the team to the Big Dance, missing the postseason twice in a mediocre division had them worried after ‘08. If they weren’t, they should have been. Lovie hasn’t couched a team to the playoffs since he signed the big extension and let Rivera go. I believe he was desperate when the bears flopped against Houston in week 17 of ‘08. Allowing the 4th most points by a Bears team in modern history only quickened the pace a bit. Trading Cutler for 2 1st round picks and a 3rd, plus a starting QB was a nod at two things. Jerry Angelo is so bad drafting in day one that it didn’t matter that it was first round picks, and the team was desperate to win. The only problem was that Smith and Co were sure that the offense was the problem. Little did they know (literally) that the Bears would go on to have one of the worst defensive seasons in Bears history. And the same jokers are still calling the defensive shots……….I don’t know whether to laugh or cry…….here’s to hoping that Peppers can make up for horrendous coaching….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 15, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
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