The Bears Den: March 17, 2010
by Dane Noble on Mar 17, 2010 6:56 AM CDT
in The Bears Den
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...where we thank Jason McKie for his years of service.
Danieal Manning is unhappy and wants a new contract.
Are the Bears desperate enough to pay TO $5mil per year?
Lance Briggs working dilligently this offseason for his charity.
Short article, but nice nonetheless, about McKie's departure.
Izzy Idonije ranked among most efficient pass-rushing DTs in the league.
Talk about star power-- Urlacher and Peppers to appear together.
Brad Biggs breaks down the revolving door at the safety position.
Compete against Nick Roach in the name of charity.
ESPN analysts give their take on Tebow before his Pro Day on Wednesday.
Follow WCG on Twitter!
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Comments
Manning really excels in Kickoff returns, and does a nice job as the Nickel Back. but is a liability as a Safety in coverage schemes.
we have others than are just as electric in kick returns and could probably cover just as well.
i’m probably one of the few that hopes another team will pay him, and turn him into what the Bears couldn’t. I like Manning, but not on the Bears anymore, time to end the experiment
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 7:14 AM CDT reply actions
Agreed
Manning is replaceable in both phases. I’m hoping someone wants him enough to give us a third. He probably could have learned a DB position pretty well by now if he hadn’t been DMS’ patient zero. Since it looks like Lovie wants to move him again it obviously won’t happen here.
Less Manning...
equals more money and and another 3rd round draft pick. Hmmmmmm…I believe the Bears could live with that. He can go be useless for another team.
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO FIRE LOVIE!
I hope he signs elsewhere
The Bears messed him up with the safety, corner, safety, nickle, corner, safety…
Let him go, take the draft pick, and wish him luck
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions
4 New Bears' Madness Polls are up in the FanPosts:
voluntary
but like at every level of football, you are expected to be there.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
In the military we refer to this tactic as
“highly encouraged”
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Thats kind of what I thought
So I guess my next comment is shut-up and go workout Manning. A million plus per year is so difficult to live on I am sure but at least it would a) improve your performance and b) show good faith to teams looking to sign you possibly.
here's to hoping this is a sign of things to come
because I really dont think (hope) the Bears would tolerate a hold out from manning, nothing he does, overly screams necessity to pay him. so i hope it translates in other teams calling about him, and being able to negotiate with the Bears for his release.
I think a third is fine, but i’d not shed any tears if he was “let go” for a 4th
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
lol....
so true! :D
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Grossman is a Redskin
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 9:17 AM CDT reply actions
Apparently Shanahan...
liked Grossman. Brought him to Washington with him. Campbell is a bum. I hope Rex gets a shot.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
That would at least mean
the Redskins are out of the playoff picture!
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
thats funny cause grossman got us to a superbowl.
he threw the third most td passes in bears history that year. he had nothing to do with it though, right?
by GentleGoodnight on Mar 17, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't say that
I was his biggest supporter in the SB year, but he failed miserably to progress and improve as a QB.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
I'm just sayin that grossman wasn't as bad as many say he was.
He got us to the bowl, and that’s more than any of the other 30 or so QBs who’ve started here since the last SB can say. I think playcalling was a bigger problem here than grossman. the whole good rex bad rex thing wasn’t exactly great for a guy who plays a position based as much on confidence as skill. either. and that started right after the arizona game in 06. one bad game and everyone was against him. i think that had a lot to do with it to. chicago is a tough place to play. let’s hope jay doesn’t see th same things.
by GentleGoodnight on Mar 17, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with you, but...
I would blame that more on Ron Turner than on Rex Grossman. Rex didn’t help his cause, but Ron’s playcalling was atrocious, and he has proven himself absolutely worthless as a developer of QBs. Shanahan is another story. Schaub took leaps over the past few years. He was most definitely a top tier QB. If he can work with Rex that way, Grossman might have a chance to redefine his career. Here’s to hoping, anyways
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Grossman would have paid to play for Shanahan
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
What does it say
if one of the best offensive minds in football of this generation wants Rex?
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
says that we had one of the worst offensive minds in this generation......twice.....
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
or that Campbell could also be...that bad
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Briggs and the other Bears working on the charities
Chicago has a bunch of class guys who are working hard to help people.
Nuff said.
+1
this can be said for all the teams in the NFL. Unfortunately, these stories get buried behind the very small percentage of idiots that you find anywhere in society. Wish the league and the media would spend a lot more time focusing on guys like Lance and Tommie and Israel and a lot less time on the Stallworths, Pacmans and Vicks……..
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Being that...
this kid has done everything that the Bears and Smith have asked of him, to the point of destroying his potental, ruining his career and creating a whole new syndrome (DMS), I think the kid has a right to be a bit unhappy. Honestly, If I was him, I would quietly not sign the tender, and see if the Bears let him go in June. The Bears recent games with the secondary have pretty much stunted the growth of every safety and half the corners. Lovie has taken value off the earning potential of every one of them. You can’t blame a guy for being pissed that he is making so little (comparatively) after quietly doing everything he has been asked of, over 5 different positions, never being allowed to develop, and then getting what he sees as the short end of the stick. Where is Manning’s reward for being what is effectively the consummate team player, and to his own detriment?
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
meh
he has been asked to do a lot, but has not excelled at anything. Good returner, but that is mre a result of our great special teams. Dude makes a lot of money for somebody that solidifes zero positions. Take a walk, he is lucky he had even gotten his shot with us.
I think if he were left at FS
he would have become better than average
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
That is the worst tragedy of it all IMO
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
exactly.....
everyone is so quick to point out the negative, but without considering the context……..
I’ll ask it again, as I have before. name one player in the league who ahs been bounced to as many positions as DM and been successful.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Name me a player who....
Has been asked to wear as many hats as manning anywhere in the league and been successful. The point is that it is nearly impossible to excel when a team fails to develop a player in a specific role. If I’m wrong here, please point out the exception to the rule. Smith playing musical chairs with the secondary has stunted or ruined most of our secondary (See Manning, Payne, McGowen, and Graham to name a few affected) and now the players aren’t supposed to feel a bit screwed after Lovie and Co ruined their value and then offered them squat?
Honestly, if Manning is smart, he’ll force his way out, and start over somewhere else. It’s the only shot he has at meeting his potential, because Smith won’t allow that to happen at all, here.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Where is Manning’s reward for being what is effectively the consummate team player
That would be the million plus per year he is getting paid. Enough to retire on for life if not stupid.
Now being a team player = great! Need more of that around the league. But how is whining and holding out going to accomplish anything?
Exactly
leave a note on Lovie’s door that says “Manning was here, would like a raise…on the field practicing”
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
See below.....
Because the same applies here.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
All of that is easy to say when you are dealing with other peoples money.....
Would you be so happy if your boss’s policies cost you half or more of your earning potential? I’m sure you’d be quietly at your post thinking about how great it was for him to keep you tax bracket down, right?
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
It's unfortunate
but that’s the facts, he didn’t perform, regardless of who’s fault it was. so you can’t be paid like you did.
play better, make more money…Cribbs was moved around, and was a lower pick… he performs no matter where you put him. I see your point, it just doesnt add up for me. In no way does manning “deserve” a better contract
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
So....
why is he wrong for wanting a better contract? And Cribbs is a poor example. He’s a trick play guy, but we’ll use him anyways. He’s been used as a WR, a RB, a return man, and a QB.
As a QB, he’s completed 1 pass of 3 attempted for 18 yards. 33% completion rate.
As a RB he has been ok as a fill in, but not worthy of starting…..
As a receiver (his primary role) he has consistently been the lowest rated receiver in Cleveland, which is a special feat. This is why they didn’t want to pay him the money.
As a returner, he is almost early Hester-ish, which is why he got the money.
The best thing that could happen to Manning is to be released. I hate to say it, but it’s true, and it’s unfortunately true for most of our DBs. Smith has been horrible for our secondary.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I coudn't agree more, but I'd take it a step further...
what position or player has ever thrived or improved under Lovie? Not just the secondary, tell me who you would consider “developed” under this coaching staff. This is why it’s a mystery to me that players “love to play for him”, he has done nothing for their careers and if they weren’t so short sided about the country club atmosphere and him wanting to be their friend, they’d see that he has done nothing to make them the player they could be. Further indictment on Smith’s inability as a head coach. I really don’t ever see the team getting past mediocre as long as he’s around. While that may be acceptable to the McCaskey’s, it’s not to me.
by BearFan611 on Mar 17, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1 and rec'd.......
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks....should have read "if they weren't so short sighted...."
I tend to get too aggravated when I discuss Lovie.
I wouldnt say he didnt perform the kid had 92 tackles
While he made not have made all the plays in coverage that we would have liked him to at fs he did a helluva job at the ss spot imo…How much more does he want to make and if the Bears put him at one position he could still be a very good player for us
Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player
Not to mention.....
1st Manning has performed fairly well in every place he’s been asked to play. This year he had an INT, three FFs, Three Fumble Recoveries, a safety, the fewest missed tackles of any starter in our secondary while leading the secondary in tackles and placing 3rd on the team in tackles (89) behind Briggs (118) and Hillenmeyer (90). Manning was also a large contributer as a return man. For the second straight year he posted a higher average on kick returns than Devin Hester has ever posted.
I’d say he has contributed and done well. He deserved more than he got.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
drop the tender
is it too late to reduce Manning’s tender to a 4th rounder? That way maybe somebody will actually take him off our hands.
by MakeHalasProud on Mar 17, 2010 10:49 AM CDT reply actions
I thought those tenders were negotiable
anyways, if say, cleveland called up and said, we want manning, but we only wanna give you a 4th…will you take it? I think Chicago can do whatever they want right?
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
like with Cassel
didn’t he get franchised, and then traded for only a second?
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Then he'll
go on to be a Pro-bowl FS, and all these poor Bear fans will be crying out their eyes just like Chris Harris and Mike Brown. Lovie has been his worst enemy.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
+1
funny how that happens. hate him know, hate the guys who traded him later.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
What's the going rate?
for a perinnial special teams player. Yeah he’s O.K at returning kicks but so are quite a few other Bears. Knox, for one and the man himself(Hester). So it looks like another team for mister expendable.
5 mil a year
In all aspects of TO and the # of things hes said, we do NEED a #1. On the other side, I like DM but if we can a 3rd take it.
We could have had TO for cheaper last year and passed
there’s no way Bears make a play for him.
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
He is what the Bears need...
but just not who the Bears need! TO is a tool and a very short term fix to a longer term problem.
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO FIRE LOVIE!
In the immortal words of Mike Ditka
in regards to T.O.
“He’s a cancer.”
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 17, 2010 11:41 AM CDT reply actions
True
I’m still wondering why they passed on boldin? Does anyone know, I know hewanted a new contract.
thats gotta be the main reason
is he’s approached that older age, and wants a new contract. big money for a questionable amount of years…yes he could end up playing for many more, but probably wont(30 this season)
it’s the same reason we’re not pursuin Atogwe, we have probably met our imaginary cap space for the year on big spends.
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Nobody is going to...
likey pursue Atogwe until after they see what goes down with StL in June. No reasoon to negotiate with a player to just have the Rams use that negotiation to pay Atogwe less than the $7M they would have had to. Atogwe’s situation likely won’t be resolved until after June 1st, and I don’t see any team wasting their time on the Rams mess until after that date.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Ugh, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 17, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Ugh, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
There are a bunch of things to take into consideration.
1. STL doesn’t want to pay market value for Atogwe
2. STL is going through an ownership change this season, making the idea of them signing any new big contracts very unlikely.
3. Atogwe is much better than Rolle, and is likely signable for a number not that much higher than Rolle.
For instance, Antrel Rolle got a deal that was 5 year 37 mil, with 15 of that guaranteed.
If we wanted we could add 3 mil to Rolles deal, and apply the Peppers treatment to it to get a deal STL wouldn’t want to match, and we’d still have a great deal on our hands.
5 years – 40 mil – 18 mil guaranteed
2010 – 1mil base – 10mil signing bonus 6 mil roster bonus
2011 – 5 mil base – 2 mil roster bonus
2012 – 6 mil base
2013 – 6 mil base
2014 – 6 mil base
He’s able to be cut after 2011 when he’ll be 32, but if he’s still a very good FS, then we’ve got a fantastic starting FS locked down for 6 mil a year, likely well under market value at that point and the majority of his front loaded deal wouldn’t effect the cap.
I don’t see STL matching the deal with or without a poison pill.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 17, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Well....
just because you are sure the Rams won’t match, doesn’t make it so, my friend. We agree often, but not here. And both of these articles (1st from ESPN and 2nd from the tribune) suggest that I’m not the only one who sees it that way. If you make an offer, and miscalculate the Rams desire to match, you lose, and there are no second chances. Waiting to see if the Rams release him or pay him the $7M+ might be the safest way. And Atogwe will be 30 in 2011. His b-day is June 23rd, 1981, so he won’t be 31 til after the ’11 draft. He is currently 28, and will be 29 before the season starts.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
correction, *won't be 31 until after the '12 draft.........sorry.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, off by one digit.
Either way, if we want him we’d have him locked up through the ostensible total of his career, he may end up playing when he’s 34, but at that point if he wants to play the market, he could be my guest. Considering that’s 3 years older than Urlacher is now, I’d be absolutely fine with that.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
agreed
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
You basically just summed up what everyone else is saying...
And I think it’s incredibly dim, I think it every time ESPN says it, and every time a sports writer says it. It’s one of the dumbest bits of logic I’ve ever came across.
If the Rams are willing to match a deal paying him basically 8mil a year, just front loaded, then they are sure as hell going to be willing to pay him 7 mil to hold onto him this year. I also really hate this whole “We don’t want to waste our time coming up with and negotiating a contract only to have the Rams match.”. I mean seriously, what else are our are negotiators and contract guys doing at this point in the year? Who cares if they match the contract you made, because if the offer is more than the 7 mil they were going to be forced to pay as the tender, and they matched it, then they were going to give him his 7 million anyway and you aren’t even getting to make the shot of offering the higher cash amount. This also isn’t even bringing into play the fact he’s basically a captive audience at the moment since no one else is dealing with him.
It’s one thing if you were offering him less than the tender making it a “cheaper” deal for the Rams, but it really isn’t. This is top 5 S money we’re talking about here, and is likely the kind of deal we should be offfering him outside of RFA anyway, so at least if we make the offer now it’s basically between us and the Rams, instead of either between us and the Cowboys or us not even being in it because they just paid him the 7 mil and were done with it.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
Like I said before....
You can think it’s dumb, But I think it’s dumb to believe that just because the Rams wanted to see what the market would offer Atogwe before signing him to $7M means that they absolutely wouldn’t sign him for that much, or even more. This is a tool that has been used plenty of times before, and often has cost a team more than a one year tender. Effectively, if the Rams allow another team to negotiate with Atogwe, they get to match whatever that offer is, regardless of whether it cost more or less than the $7M. If they sign him to the $7M, they have to renegotiate in order to keep him beyond one year. If another team offers 40 over 5 with 18 guaranteed, then the Rams can decide if they want to match his actual value. If he comes out higher then they want to pay, he goes elsewhere. if he comes out within the range they are willing to pay, regardless of the $7M number, then the Rams just match it, Atogwe knows he got a reasonable offer, the Rams don’t have to negotiate next year, and everyone (except the team that made the offer) is happy.
Assuming that the Rams aren’t willing to pay $7M, and that is the end all and be all of the conversation is the mistake. The Rams may very well be willing to pay even more, but want the market to set the rate. This often happens when a RFA thinks he is worth more money than the team thinks. The team then uses the tender offer to test the market on the player in order to avoid overpaying. The team then has the option of matching the market, rather than overpaying. For all we know, Atogwe’s agent may have thrown out a 5 year $50M/$20m guaranteed, and the Rams balked. Truth is that the amount the Rams are actually willing to pay has not been leaked to the public. Assuming that there is some $7M cap just because they didn’t offer the $7M tender doesn’t look at the bigger picture.
They might not be willing to pay, but they might also be playing the market. The fact that no team has made the offer, considering how hard so many teams went hard after supposedly lesser safeties would indicate that it might not be as “dim” an idea as you suggest. In fact, the argument you made, which seems to be a popular one among bloggers, seems a big short-sighted and tunnel-visioned. It is an argument that assumes that this year is the only year teams are concerned with, and it also assumes that the Rams organization and every other organization is stupid.
By your logic, the Rams are too dumb to understand that they are going to loose a high value pro bowl player in a position that is currently shallow in the league. And it assumes that every other team in the league is too stupid to understand that they could have already had the same player without any fight at all. If this is such a cut and dry position as to have you labeling any other idea as “dim” then why have 31 other GMs not seen fit to pull the trigger on what would be the second most valuable player in FA this season? Maybe, just maybe, there’s more to this “dim” idea, and “dumb” logic than you realize. The business side of football is a little deeper than your logic gives credit for.
That’s not to say that there is no way to have him. Not at all. But to assume that you have the absolute like that is just silly. Apparently, Jerry Angelo and Jerry Jones (both of whom have been tied to a desire for Atogwe) are a bit less sure of that absolute than you are. Now, I wouldn’t bet anything on JA’s business savvy, but Jones is a different story. Why hasn’t he made a serious play for a guy who is so easy to attain? Jones has never been one to hold back when he wants something, has he? If were as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be, then I think Atogwe would already have a star on his helmet. Dallas, Seattle and Chicago have all shown interest. Yet Atogwe is still a Ram.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay...
There are two problems with this entire train of thought though, it completely ignores the various other tender levels they could have tendered Atogwe with, and it completely ignores the fact that if the Rams want to keep him, they can just keep him. Period. That’s a loss for us either way.
The way I’m looking at it, Atogwe is the perfect player for us and whether we lose him to the Rams giving him the 7mil as the 110percent of his 2009 salary, or if they matched our offer to keep him that’s a loss for us, but there is literally zero reason to think that they’d definitely match a 5 year 40 million deal that pays him about 17 mil next year, but would let him walk and get nothing in return instead of paying him 7ish mil next year. Zero, that train of thought makes absolutely zero sense and it’s the one that ESPN and many others are pushing. “Oh, we’ll make a play for him after the Rams let him walk.”
If they are willing to pay 17 million next year, then they are willing to pay 7 million next year. So again, why would you not make a play at him now?
Basically, the level they tendered him at absolutely says they are playing the market. If they were willing to let him leave without a fight, they would have tagged him with at least the lowest tender that returns a pick(the tender that gives you a equal draft pick in return to where they were drafted which in Atogwe’s case is a 3rd) However, they get absolutely nothing if he leaves, which means they aren’t planning on him leaving. They are definitely either A: Looking to get him on the cheap or B: Looking to work out a long term deal with him. Since we’re wanting to sign him, the only thing that actually makes sense is to make a play at him that he’d be willing to sign.
By my logic, it’s much better to try and fail, then not even get the chance to try because you can be sure that either he’ll be “traded” for before the deadline, be dealt as a sign and trade at the dead line, or just kept for another year at the 110 mark. They won’t let him walk for nothing, unless they are quite literally the new cheapest organization on the planet.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
To answer your questions and comments....
t completely ignores the various other tender levels they could have tendered Atogwe with
No, it doesn’t. The tender they gave him was the lowest that allowed them to retain rights. So that gives the most latitude to let the market price the player. You explain this yourself later in the post….
and it completely ignores the fact that if the Rams want to keep him, they can just keep him
and again….no, it doesn’t. It in fact means that the team wants to keep him. If they only cared about one season, then, by all means, throwing out the one year tender at $7M was the srartest idea. but if you want to keep him beyond that, then what they did was the smartest idea. They get a chance to let the market price the player, while still showing the player (in the end) that they were willing to match the best offer he received. Again, this happens occationally when a player thinks that he can get more on the market than the club thinks.
but there is literally zero reason to think that they’d definitely match a 5 year 40 million deal that pays him about 17 mil next year, but would let him walk and get nothing in return instead of paying him 7ish mil next year. Zero, that train of thought makes absolutely zero sense and it’s the one that ESPN and many others are pushing. "Oh, we’ll make a play for him after the Rams let him walk."
Your statement is kind of pointless here. There is also literally zero reason to think that they’d definitely not match a 5 year $40M deal. This train of thought makes zero sense and it’s one that bloggers and many others push.
Basically, the level they tendered him at absolutely says they are playing the market. If they were willing to let him leave without a fight, they would have tagged him with at least the lowest tender that returns a pick(the tender that gives you a equal draft pick in return to where they were drafted which in Atogwe’s case is a 3rd) However, they get absolutely nothing if he leaves, which means they aren’t planning on him leaving. They are definitely either A: Looking to get him on the cheap or B: Looking to work out a long term deal with him. Since we’re wanting to sign him, the only thing that actually makes sense is to make a play at him that he’d be willing to sign.
This basically negates the statement above, and basically says the exact same thing that I’ve been saying, except for the whole “throw a pile of money and hope it sticks” idea. You make my point by stating exactly why they gave him the lowest tender, which I alluded to before.
By my logic, it’s much better to try and fail, then not even get the chance to try because you can be sure that either he’ll be "traded" for before the deadline, be dealt as a sign and trade at the dead line, or just kept for another year at the 110 mark. They won’t let him walk for nothing, unless they are quite literally the new cheapest organization on the planet.
I get your point, here. But I asked this question earlier, and it was ignored. Maybe you’ll see the point in the question now. If it were this cut and dry, why hasn’t the deep pocketed and ambitious Jerry Jones jumped all over it? He has expressed an interest. Is he too pricey for Jones? Is Jones just that careful? (laughs heartily at his own stupid question) Remember that we may already have an offer on the table to Atogwe, BTW. Until OJ decides to accept it, the Rams don’t have to match. OJ can receive offers from all 31 teams before deciding to accept one, at which point the Rams have the right to match. But this stuff is almost never as simple as it looks. Either way is taking a risk. But he cannot be traded without signing a tender, so either the Rams are going to meet whatever deal is offered, they end up paying the $7M for another year, or he gets released June 1st. No matter what happens, they get no compensation for Atogwe, which means that htey probably aren’t going to let him get away. They took a gamble that they could get him cheaper this way. A gamble can always be lost. The real question is……what is it that the (at least) three teams that are interested in Atogwe’s services have seen that have them holding back? If they are….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions
That's kind of my whole point though...
ESPN and company are all making the case for everyone just waiting it out until he’s a FA and then making a play for him, which is one of the most asinine things I’ve ever heard.
I don’t know that they definitely wouldn’t match a 40 million offer, but it’s infinitely more likely than them letting him hit the FA market free and clear. Since those or some kind of sign and trade are our only options for acquiring him, but even that is extremely unlikely because if they were merely looking for draft picks or something they could have just tendered him at that level.
So basically you’re looking at the following options.
Getting him via making an offer and them not matching
Getting him via some combination of Daniel Manning/Roach/Williams sign and trade.
Not getting him.
As far as the Cowboys go, I’m not a huge Cowboys fan, but I know they have both a first and a second round pick in a deep draft class filled with safeties. My best guess would be the Cowboys actually feeling like they can fill the position with a great player in the draft, even if they don’t get Atogwe.
Also, as an aside, them not matching a 40 mil deal makes sense if they were simply trying to get him on the cheap and aren’t willing to drop 17 million on him this year. It also has some hope of being true, unlike the ESPN reports of everyone waiting for the Rams to just let him go for free.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
This thread is epic.
You guys should collaborate on a fan post debate forum thingy.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
Isn't it nice when two people can....
amicably debate an issue with reasonable argument, still disagree, and not call each other idiots?
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Seconded
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"if we need it, we’re not drafting it. not high anyway. look for Angelo to go after a DL/DE – because that’s just the kind of asshat he is.." - junkhorse
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
Yeah prob.
that seems to be right in terms, but im hoping to see what they do in the draft and FA. Maybe they know someng we don’t
So Lions hosting Pats on T-Day
anyone other than me think that with the decline in NE play, and the serious upswing Detroit has, they can beat them?
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 17, 2010 12:37 PM CDT reply actions
I told all of you that Izzy is awesome
My skills also tell me that Wolfe is awesome.
by DaHamsta on Mar 17, 2010 12:51 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
lol
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Mar 17, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Fox sports news guy
doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Brandon Marshall can’t stretch the field? Did he happen to see the Redskins game by chance?
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
what about..
Jared Gaither?? have the bears thought about adding him,he is like 6’9" 300 some odd pounds. surely he could protect cutler!!!!
by CuTler2bearz on Mar 17, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
He's more of a possession type receiver
Though you are correct, he has the ability to stretch if he wants to
so..
does that mean tim jennings get more playing time??
by CuTler2bearz on Mar 17, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
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