O.J. Atogwe - A Gamble Worth Making
Oshiomogho Atogwe is the most attractive free safety on the market, not because of anything revolving around upside, veteran leadership, or cost effectiveness. He's the premier free safety on the market because he's head and shoulders above every other FA Safety that is out there.
With the discussions going on here, and elsewhere revolving around O.J. Atogwe, the best way to go get him, and the reasons we haven't yet I thought a nice little breakdown of what Atogwe is, his strengths and weaknesses, and the reason I think making a play now instead of waiting is the right move.
Now, some other team could very well make him an offer still, but it’s unlikely that he’ll get a deal that would pay him. Don’t believe it still? The Steelers resigned FS Ryan Clark to a four-year, $14 million deal with $5 million guaranteed and a $3 million signing bonus. I wouldn’t be surprised if Atogwe got a deal like that eventually.
Bottom line: O.J. Atogwe is not going to get $6.9 million per year, not from the Rams and not from any other team, and the Rams still have a good chance of hanging onto Atogwe. The Rams made a move that looks like a head-scratcher, but was a pretty smart calculation/gamble.
- VanRam - Turf Show Times
First things worth, let's establish O.J. Atogwe's relative football worth compared to the rest of the league. Here is a nice little write up on his strengths and weaknesses I found from PFW.
Strengths: Daily team observers can't even fathom how good Atogwe's numbers might be in a defense unlike the Rams' that isn't so often in such predictable passing situations. Pure and simple, he is a quality playmaker with great range and sure tackling ability. He possesses the speed to say with wideouts, in addition to having a real nose for the ball in run support. Tutored by Chavous, Atogwe also has become a very serious student of the game, as well as a hard worker who has made his hands better by working overtime catching balls out of the JUGS machine on a regular basis. Atogwe also takes good care of his body and has proven to be quite durable, starting every game the past three seasons.
Weaknesses: Atogwe still will have lapses in coverage, but not nearly as many as he had his first two seasons. He sometimes has a tendency to tackle too high and occasionally can get dragged for extra yardage.Risk Factor: Low. The numbers don't lie. Whether he remains with the Rams or not, Atogwe looks to be on a fast track toward perennial Pro Bowl consideration the rest of his career, provided he can stay healthy.
Alright, so let's take a closer look at what we have here. We have an Pro Bowl level playmaker that is easily the prototype of what you want out of the free safety position, great range, sure tackling, and WR level speed. Then we take a look at things away from game time, and we've got someone who does the work needed to not only stay healthy, but actually wants to become better than he already is. There is a lot to be said about a guy who is already at a Pro Bowl level, yet still puts in extra work to get better at takeaways. The downsides of having a few lapses in coverage, and a weak tackle now and then are both things that as a student of the game he should be able to improve, neither are limits on what he can do and with his work ethic it's fairly logical that he'll continue to improve in his minor lapses.
We've heard a breakdown of his pros and cons, but what about the actual stats this guy has put up? I'm going to throw some up here just for discussions sake, but keep in mind the FS position is traditionally not a huge stat position. Generally if the rest of the defense is doing a great job, the free safety is called upon to make plays much less often. So his stats may be somewhat inflated if only because the Rams D is absolutely terrible.
Season
Team
Tackles
Interceptions
Fumbles
G
GS
Comb
Total
Ast
Sck
SFTY
PDef
Int
Yds
Avg
Lng
TDs
FF
2009
St. Louis Rams
12
12
74
58
16
1.0
--
5
2
21
10.5
12
0
3
2008
St. Louis Rams
16
16
85
77
8
0.0
0
5
5
91
18.2
43
0
6
2007
St. Louis Rams
16
16
75
66
9
0.0
0
12
8
125
15.6
52T
1
0
2006
St. Louis Rams
16
16
72
63
9
1.0
--
7
3
8
2.7
7
0
5
- NFL
Everything is there but his rookie year, and at least to me this line is fairly impressive. Tackles are the main thing that gets inflated in a bad defense, as any PD/Int lines are more likely to go down than up in a bad defense. Why? Because in a bad defense it doesn't make sense to go after the only good piece of the secondary. The FF is something I find really impressive, as it speaks to an almost Tillman level of ball hawking out of the free safety position, something I'd love to see. Free Safeties are never going to hit you as hard as the strong safety, but if you can put the fear of losing that ball into them just the same, you've got a great talent on your hands.
Now that we've firmly established that Atogwe is an elite level talent, let's take a quick look at the contracts other name safeties are either currently signed to, or signed this year. I'll start off with some 2009 cap numbers, and then we'll dig down a bit on the contracts signed this year.
Player
Team
Base Salary
Sign Bonus
Other Bonus
Total Salary
Cap Value
Wilson, Adrian
Cardinals
$ 5,500,000
$ 1,000,000
$ 1,820
$ 6,501,820
$ 7,041,323
Polamalu, Troy
Steelers
$ 2,900,000
$ 0
$ 1,405,200
$ 4,305,200
$ 6,500,200
Reed, Ed
Ravens
$ 3,600,000
$ 0
$ 4,160
$ 3,604,160
$ 6,404,160
Atogwe, Oshiomogho
Rams
$ 6,342,021
$ 0
$ 7,150
$ 6,349,171
$ 6,349,171
Hope, Chris
Titans
$ 4,000,000
$ 0
$ 7,280
$ 4,007,280
$ 6,257,282
Sanders, Bob
Colts
$ 620,000
$ 0
$ 3,330,000
$ 3,950,000
$ 6,130,836
Alright, so we're looking at the top 6 paid people at the position, and as you can see somewhere between 6 mil and 7 mil was the general idea for an elite level safety last year. Some got more guaranteed money, some where franchised, some got overpaid, but the elite were around the 6 million dollar mark. Now, underneath that mark the next six or so guys, including Antrel Rolle which is important, were making somewhere around 5 million a year. Now let's take a look at the three biggest FA/RFA that were technically on the market this year, and as close a look at the contracts as we can.
Nick Collins - GB - RFA - Signed with the Packers again at around the 3 year 23.4million mark.(Fox Sports)
Ryan Clark - PIT - FA - Signed with the Steelers again at around the 4 year 14 million mark(Post Gazette)
Antrel Rolle - AZ - FA - Signed with the New York Giants at around 5 year 37million mark with 15 guaranteed(NJ)
Now, if you take a moment and look at the link I provided for Rolle's contract the writer does a great job of comparing it with two of the elite contracts that were written before this year so we'll throw those in as well.
Bob Sanders - IND - Five years, 37.5 Million, signed in 2007
Troy Polamalu - PIT - Four years, 30.19 Million, signed in 2007
Okay, so this gives a really good baseline of numbers to work off of when it comes the actual yearly contract that approximates what Atogwe is worth, and what he thinks he is worth. Atogwe has said via his agent that he thinks he's been among the most productive safeties in the league, possibly even better than Ed Reed, and honestly I'd be inclined to agree due to the defense he was on, and the numbers he was still able to put up. So we can easily say he's looking for top 5 money, so what would that be exactly?
Sanders and Polamalu are both floating around 7.5 mil a year, Rolle who has the most recent contract to base things off of is sitting at 7.4 mil a year. Nick Collins who was an RFA which means less of an open market clocked in at around 7.8 a year. Looking at this list, I'd say Ryan Clark isn't as good as Rolle or Collins, but it's fairly obvious he got hosed with a homedown discount at 3.5 million. Throwing his bad fortune out of the mix, and you've got Atogwe likely looking for something from 7.5 to 8 million a year.
I know, I know. That's a lot of cash, a big contract, and one of a million other things, but due to the way the cap is working this year and how bonuses can be applied immediately instead of being prorated to the cap over the life of the contract, it's very possible to hit the 8mil a year mark that would make Atogwe extremely happy, while still being cap conscience and keeping him at around 6 mil a year on a yearly basis for most of the contract. Below was my guesstimate of what a contract like that could look like.
5 years – 40 mil – 18 mil guaranteed
2010 – 1mil base – 10mil signing bonus 6 mil roster bonus
2011 – 5 mil base – 2 mil roster bonus
2012 – 6 mil base
2013 – 6 mil base
2014 – 6 mil base
You can play with the numbers a ton, and even add a bit more front loaded cash if you think we've actually got it after letting Vasher loose, but the general idea is that Atogwe is definitely a top 5 talent, and to reach that mark you're looking at eight million a year, which is about a million more than what his RFA 1-year tender would be to the Rams if they can't agree upon a deal before hand.
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Now that the numbers section of this is out of the way, here is the actual reasoning for making this deal happen and making it happen now. The Rams either have the choice of making a deal with Atogwe, signing him to the 7-ish million dollar tender, matching another teams offer that Atogwe would accept, not matching the offer, or letting him go for nothing.
Of the four options the only one that has zero chance of happening is option four, the Rams may be a struggling franchise, but you'd have to be inept on Al Davis levels to allow a star player to leave for nothing in return. That leaves us with four other possible outcomes.
Rams making a deal with Atogwe
Now then, a lot of people don't remember this situation, but it happened last year as well to a large extent. The Rams wanted to sign Atogwe to a long term deal, but his agent was driving a hard bargain and the Rams were either unable or unwilling to meet his demands, so they placed the franchise tag on him. That's while you'll see him on the list with a high salary up above. The general reports are that Atogwe wasn't very happy with the franchise tag last year, and he's even less happy with the Rams tendering him when he would have likely been a FA any other year. His unhappiness with the situation isn't exactly that important, it is however important to look at the negotiation landscape when it comes to his deal. They've essentially had two years to work out a deal and have been unable to come to terms, so there has to be a fundamental disagreement on what Atogwe is worth between Atogwe/Agent and the team. Since there is information from his agent that he thinks he's basically one of the best at his position the most likely breakdown of the situation is that Atogwe thinks he should be getting top 2-3 money, and the Rams don't want to pay it. There are definitely other reasons why the negotiations could be failing, but this seems to be the most likely. Since Atogwe's agent would likely be asking for the same thing from the Bears or any other organization that comes calling that he's asking for from the Rams, it goes a long way towards saying either the Rams just want "proof" he's worth that, or they are trying to "prove" to Atogwe he isn't worth that.
I think he is, and I definitely think he is for the Bears at this point in time. I'd be willing to go as high as 9 million a year, as long as the money was front loaded this year in guarantees so that the cap number was back to 6ish for the years that "matter".
Rams signing him to the tender.
This is pretty much guaranteed to happen if there isn't an offer on the table because after the money Rolle and Collins received no agent worth anything is going to allow his client to get Ryan Clark'd, and the Rams aren't going to lose something they could easily keep for just a slight bump from what they paid last year. If this happens, a sign and trade as I understand could still technically be possible, but logic says that unless they are looking for linebackers or Daniel Manning we don't have a lot to offer/spare.
Rams matching an offer from another team.
As I mentioned earlier, this is entirely possible if the Rams are simply looking for proof that Atogwe is worth what he thinks he is worth. However, in the NFL usually teams don't completely change their view on worth based on what other teams think. So if the deal that gets offered to Atogwe is something exactly like what the Rams haven't agreed to in two years, it's not very likely that they'll have an immediate change of heart and match it on the spot. If however, it's anything "negotiated" lower than what had been his agents current offer to the team, it's very likely they'd take the opportunity to match if accepted.
Another problem with this idea is that there really isn't a lot of teams still in the market for a FS, a lot of the teams looking after either resigned their guy(PIT/GB), signed someone else(NYG), or seem to be looking at the draft. The three main teams that could possible have interest still would be...
I'd like to take just a second to thank T-Train for bringing up Jones and the Cowboys yesterday as it gave me a chance to do a bit of research on the Cowboys and I dug up an article over at PFT.
"That's always a concern and that's one of the things that needs to be addressed in the new collective bargaining agreement," Jones said Tuesday, per Todd Archer of the Dallas Morning News. "Those are called unintended consequences there. What turns into trying to be competitive among clubs and what turns into trying to be fair for a player turns into being a disadvantage for the clubs."
Then again, the hidden genius of Jones' remarks could be that he possibly has foreclosed teams from choosing to sign any restricted free agents to offer sheets, since his comments arguably now compel use of the poison pill. Though the union can still cry collusion if no RFAs are pursued, it will be very easy for teams to argue that they prefer not to sacrifice draft picks in what many regard as the deepest pool of incoming talent in years.
- PFT
The article also mentions that RFA market is usually fairly dull no matter what anyway, but it does have a kernel of truth. It seems like Jones may not want to wade into the minefield he sees RFA as being, specially if he has the picks to grab a good FS in the draft, of which there are more than a few that should be there in the last first or late second round. This may also explain the somewhat lack of interest in Atogwe from the league as a whole.
The Dolphins are still in the game as well though, and had expressed interest if they were unable to sign Rolle, the only problem I see is that if they were unwilling to sign Rolle for the money Rolle was signed for and they let Clark go without signing him to a contract paying more than 3.5mil, it doesn't seem likely that they'd be willing to show Atogwe the money on what is still a rebuilding team in many respects.
That pretty much leaves the Bears as one of the only big market teams that has money, cap room after this year, need at the FS position, and a preexisting positive history with the Rams. This is what brings me to the next section.
Rams declining to match an offer.
It's entirely possible that if an offer is made to Atogwe that the Rams will match it, and get the long term deal they were looking for. However, there is essentially one way that the Rams don't match it and that's if the deal is too rich for their blood, or more than they valued Atogwe at. It's not as simple as just driving a truck of money though, as our existing relationship with the Rams actually makes this a much more likely scenario. There are no rules against the Rams saying to us, "We're going to match your offer unless you give us Manning and Hunter Hillenmeyer", or Manning and Williams, or Manning, Dez, Williams, or any combination of players we have available for trade. So while they might not be willing to pay Atogwe that kind of money, they may be able to essentially bluff their way into some players, basically the equivalent of a sign and trade.
Even if we think that may be possible, it still requires us to offer a contract they don't really want to match though which is what brings me in the most round about way possible to my main point.
---
O.J. Atogwe is worth making the gamble on, specially when all we're really gambling with is a bit of wasted time on the part of our contract negotiators. The worst case scenario is that we don't get to sign him, it doesn't exactly matter if it's because they matched our deal, or they signed him to the tender. Either way, we've lost the player we should be gunning for. However, if we make the play for him now we've at least got a fighting chance of either making that deal, or them simply not matching the offer. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much rather be able to say we tried, than we just let him sign the tender.
What does everyone else think? Is Atogwe worth the gamble of whether or not the Rams would match? What yearly value do you place on Atogwe, and how good do you think he really is?
10 recs |
110 comments
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Comments
Never in a million yrs
Will this happen. If it did happen we wld move from mediocre to flat out dangerous. If it was gonna happen it would have already. Oj otogowe hats off too u an wld love to have u a member of the Bears. I’m not holdin my breath.
by Papabear777 on Mar 18, 2010 7:42 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Who's to say this hasn't already happened.
Or is happening as we speak. The Bears (or any other) team could be negotiating with Atogwe as we speak. There is nothing that states any contract offers need to be disclosed until the offer is accepted. He could be biding his time waiting for the “best” offer to come along. Why would he hurry?
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
pls use prpr nglsh thx
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
by Spongie on Mar 18, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wow!
Fantastic! Simply fantastic! I stand in awe.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
British folks will always win...
Americans butchered the language, and the Brits will always have a case to correcting proper English, even if it means picking on mobile abbreviations.
/Spongie is one of my favorite posters, so he gets a pass for being an English grammar-biatch.
I’ve no problem with American English, even if it means I have to remember to switch to “center” or “offense/defense” when discussing matters gridiron. I’m just of the mindset – without meaning to incite a flamewar – that if someone wants to garble like they’re on Yahoo Sports, they should go to that site instead of inflicting such poor standards of English on the denizens of WCG.
Ahem… back to the point of this excellent post, I see Jason McKie is visiting the Rams. If only we’d thought to offer him as part of a trade!
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
I think that happens often....
when people are posting from their phones……So I just keep that in mind
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Hadn’t thought of that (newfangled technology), in which case I offer an apology to any future posters that I complain about who are too lazy to stop using abbreviations :-D
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
Mike Brown....
Knows the system and THRIVES in it, is healthy, and is flat out ALOT of Bears fans favorites!
GO BEARS!!!!
OLD!
Just wondering, do you want the Monsters of the midway to be receiving social security and Medicare benefits? We need some youth on the defensive side of the ball. just saying….
by OldStyle_and_Ivy on Mar 18, 2010 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Just like Lovie and Jerry...
…I’m just thinking about THIS YEAR!! Cause if all this don’t work… it’s widely thought that there it will be a FULL reset NEXT year! I’d rather throw MB back there and KNOW I don’t hafa worry about him, then to have yet ANOTHER person playin in our system for the 1st time! just sayin….
GO BEARS!!!!
by ChiTownSounds on Mar 18, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Understand Completely But,
my only argument would be that this isn’t the same Bears of old, and we need to bring in new players (which we have) to rejuvenate this team into a new type of playoff contender. Mike Brown is in the last chapter of Bears history, and I’m interested in seeing what’s in store for the future, not revisiting the past. THIS ISN’T THE SAME 2006 NFC CHAMPION BEARS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!
by OldStyle_and_Ivy on Mar 18, 2010 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Understand what you're saying,
but you do have to admit, he knows the defense and was always in the right spot on many plays when he wasn’t injured. He is a hard hitter and I am sure he hasn’t lost anything there. Sometimes reaction time and knowing where to be make up for lack of speed and I am confident he would be a great addition to what we are trying to do this upcoming season. They are not the same team of 2006, but he could be a big part of 2010 and they have made the changes necessary so far. Plus, he would be great for our young FS prospects in teaching them the proper way to play the position whether or not he stays healthy. He would come at a very fair price, I say that the pros out way the cons. Sign him up!!!
Walter Payton lives on!!!
by monsterman34 on Mar 18, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Except
that his numbers from last season are inflated, and Brown was one of the worst-rated safeties in the entire league.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
True that..
looks like KC was pretty good at stoping the run, but horrible stopping the pass. Looks like they didn’t have much of a pass rush either.
Walter Payton lives on!!!
by monsterman34 on Mar 19, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely worth the money.
I’d even be willing to give up Hillenmeyer for him. We have crazy depth at Linebacker, but I’m not sure if I’d be fine with giving up Manning. I’m assuming that the Rams would go after Eric Berry if Atogwe leaves, so I’m sure that they wouldn’t go out of their way to match an offer when they could have an insanely talented safety in Berry.
by OldStyle_and_Ivy on Mar 18, 2010 7:43 PM CDT reply actions
Here is the thing...
Rams have needs all over the place, but their most pressing is at QB honestly. I really don’t know how they don’t take a QB with their pick, and even if they signed someone like McNabb, they’d still probably take one of the elite DT.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
This made me LOL.
I’d even be willing to give up Hillenmeyer for him.
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Furthermore...
I like Manning… but you’d really not be fine if you lost him to obtain the services of Atogwe?
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't follow either
plus, I think Manning is more replaceable via Atogwe, than HH is.
I know, I know I’m one of 3 WCG’ers that likes HH
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I like him too
as a back up he has value
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 19, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd go a step further...
And say he might be the best backup linebacker in the league.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
I like HH, as well.
-------
"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
All I got to say ....
….. is MAKE IT HAPPEN !!! This guy would make our D run like a well oiled machine and with the addition of Peppers his numbers would sky rocket .
by MidWayMonster54 on Mar 18, 2010 7:46 PM CDT reply actions
Very good write up Sklz: +1
Signing Atogwe for 8-9 million with the large signing bonus paid out in this uncapped year is worth it. Now you’re talking about a top 5 defense if everyone enters the regular season healthy. In fact, I would be very confident with this defense carrying the load until the offense gets in sync
Thanks...
And I agree, if we get Atogwe it’s seriously possible that the Bears could have the best defense in the league, as the primary weak point would be the CB, and honestly in the Cover 2 combined with the increased pressure the CB’s are probably the least important.
It’s easy to imagine a situation with Alex Brown and Peppers on the outside, with Mark Anderson taking being the rotational guy. It’s also easy to imagine Tommie playing up to the people beside him and actually returning to the player everyone knows he once was. Throw in a nice little rotation between Izzy and others, and that’s a great little front four. Behind them as long as we resign Pisa, we’d have the best LB group in the league IMO. Either Afalava or Payne at SS, and Atogwe at FS. That’s just a incredibly damn good group of players in that front 7 + 2, and Tillman isn’t bad at all.
I could easily see the defense trying to outscore the offense at times.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
Damn well worth
the money, let’s hope we can get it done somehow. Great read. Rec’d
Thank you, thank you...
I really hope so too, it’d be nice to have a great core of defensive players locked up for the next 3 or 4 years.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
Glad you decided to make your epic comment
into a fan post. Well done.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
*laughs* Yeah...
Talking to T-Train got me thinking about it more and more, and helped me flesh out the ideas a lot more.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
I'd by that for a dollar.
A well put together write up, Sklz711.
You convinced me it is worth making the effort and rolling the dice to acquire Atogwe.
FS is too important to try to make do with SS.
"Do or do not... there is no try." - Yoda
Have to get it done
If the boys at Halas Hall are serious about contending and if Lovie and Jerry really only have one year, you over pay this guy by a million or so. If we go into the year with the current safeties, I believe all the early free agent money will be for not. Not to say they weren’t good signings and improved the club, but to truly be competitive we need improvement at the safety position. Atogwe is perfect for the system and an elite player. One of our two biggest holes gets filled by a pro-bowler and we can go oline in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms.- Mike Ditka
by Hurricanes becoming Bears on Mar 18, 2010 9:29 PM CDT reply actions
i could see us making a trade
like how the seahawks just did with the QB from San Diego. have otogwe sign the offer sheet with the promise to trade him.
However, the Rams would be gunning for a top level pick in this scenario, which we don’t have. we can of course just wait until June 1st and see what happens. I wouldn’t want to get in a bidding war with the cowboys, Jerry Jones isn’t afraid the spend money when he wants to.
or of course we just offer otogwe a contract that the rams won’t want to match. if we offer anantrel rolle level of contract, the rams won’t match it. we’d just have to front load it alot in preparation of the new CBA.
however we will be poor afterwards. i think we would have spent around 100 mil in FA just from this class. there are teams whose entire ROSTER has been below this in recent years. and if this happens, we will become the yankees of the NFL. I personally hate it when teams “buy a championship” and that’s kinda the way we’re looking. I know Jerry and Lovie are in desperation mode, but c’mon!
I personally hate it when teams "buy a championship" and that’s kinda the way we’re looking. I know Jerry and Lovie are in desperation mode, but c’mon!
True, but we won’t be complaining if the Bears land the big one. 25 years is a long time to wait for a second title, plus think how much fun it would be to be able to lord it over Vikings/Favre fans if we manage it.
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
In one way or another, it's always buying a championship
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I would agree
Atogwe would appear to make a great addition to the defense and would put the Bears into discussion for one of the best defenses in the league, providing that everybody stays healthy.
We are who we think we are.
I would hope they pick him up.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team, throughout the good and the bad.
That is a heck of a post... good work.
Can you fax that to JA? Because I’m sure Lovie made a pitch for him already, but it wasn’t quite that in depth. I usual just go with he has the highest Madden score of any Safety in Free Agency.
ROFL
If I could fax things to JA, he’d have already changed hix fax number after the copious amounts of vulgarity that would have ran through his machine before last year.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
I feel like I should get at tshirt that says,
“I made it through Skiz’s fan post and all I got was this lousy tshirt”
Seriously, great post. Good job putting all this together.
And I definitely think that he’s worth the money. I just don’t know if the Bears have much left over post Peppers, Taylor, Manu, Jennings(?), Bullocks (FTW?!?).
It’s just me speculating, but I think Jerry and Lovie are of the mindset that they can “grab a good FS in the draft”. As much as I’d like to see Atogwe donning the Blue and Orange next year, I don’t see it happening.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
The Bears have the money
But do they want to spend it?
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 19, 2010 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Of course they have it!
But how much of that $25m “bonus” is really left?
Peppers: 6yr | $84m | $42m Gtd (incl/ $6.5m signing bonus + $12.5m roster bonus in ’10)
Manu: 5yr | $15m | $6.1m Gtd (incl/ $2m signing bonus + $3m roster bonus in ’10)
Taylor: 4yr | $12.5m | $7m Gtd (incl/ $2m signing bonus + $4m roster bonus in ’10)
That’s $30m in just the signing bonuses and roster bonuses for these three players alone. Not counting the other factors in their contracts. Nor counting Tim Jennings and anyone else that they might sign.
…the McCaskey family has given general manager Jerry Angelo the OK to spend at least $25million in up-front money, according to a league source, to secure impact free agents. link
Cutting Vasher and McKie, probably doesn’t even put them under the original mark of $25m
Like I said above, I’d love to have him on our team and I know the Bears technically “have” the money. But the numbers of what we were given, and what we’ve spent don’t work in our favor.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd also be inclined to say...
that if Jerry and Lovie were given an open checkbook, this deal would probably happen. But since they weren’t…
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, it really just kind of depends...
On how much they are in win now mode, and how much exactly did they want to go over that 25 million mark.
Atogwe would definitely fall into the catagory of impact FA, and between Vasher, McKie, and just taking a guess that we’d probably end up giving up a player or two, we’re likely back at our 25mil mark.
Are the Bears willing to smash their ceiling by 18million, they definitely should be, but that’s definitely a legitimate question even with their current spending spree. I could even justify it from a fiduciary standpoint using the logic that without a first or second round this year it about evens out from the amount they would have been spending on those high value picks.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
I agree completely.
And I hope it does happen. I’ve been pretty smitten on the guy for the past few years. I do think this decision is bigger than our coach and GM though. It’s possible that they took the idea (and request for more money) to the Bears and got declined.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
They could sign him
with what they saved by cutting Vasher, McKie, and Pace
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 19, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
The words
at least
keep jumping out at me… think back to High Fidelty and the word “yet”
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Start a rally
and put signs saying “bring atogwe here”
Problem here also
is that Lovie and Jerry will be going “Free Safety, Free Safety…oh a shiny new D-Lineman…pick him”
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Haha.
Like the dog from UP
“My master is a good master. He made me this collar so that I can tal… “SQUIRREL”.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Another well thought out analysis - Great Post sir, +2
I’ve never seen film on this guy, but your argument is compelling.
I’ve been saying for weeks “Bring me a hitter, and assassin”. I dunno if this guy fits that mold, but he may make a QB think twice before tossing one in his vicinity.
Problems abound, and the transaction is fraught with landmines. Lots of ifs and maybes.
I would not want to give up Hillenmeyer or Manning or any other useful body we have just to land this guy. He has excelled in a mediocre defense. Probably not the largest turd floating to the top, but it’s easy to look like Brad Pitt in a room full of Quasimodos. (FYI – See Hunchback of Notre Dame)
I think they wait until draft day or after to make a move. 7-9 Mil per year is HUGE money for a Safety. I don’t think the Bears have ever placed that much value on the position. Therein lies the problem. He may be great, but if management doesn’t see the value in paying top dollar for a position where there is no value in it, they will do something else.
Look for the Bears to draft a FS, especially if a really good one is still available in the 3rd.
BTW, I would really like to have this guy too, I just don’t think the value is there.
by Suffering from Chicago Sports on Mar 19, 2010 10:05 AM CDT reply actions
Thanks for the kind words...
I agree with you on a lot of points, there are a LOT of ifs and maybes, as we just don’t know the mindset of the Rams, we can only make educated speculation. I also agree that around 8 million a year is huge money for a safety, but if Polamalu were to hit the market this year, he’d probably be hitting the 9-10 million mark. Rolle and Collins deals showed a decent amount of inflation, specially with it being an uncapped year.
The main thing I disagree with is that it’s easy to look good on a bad team, that’s really not true at the FS position. In lots of schemes you’ll see certain LB get overrrated due to their tackle totals when it’s just that players get funneled toward them, or CB’s that get overrated due to having a terrible corner next to them so the other team just throws over there instead, not that they are really feared. At the FS position since you’re essentially a cover position, if you’re surrounded by bad CB on both sides, it’s much easier for the other team to just pick on them, than come at you. That’s really what makes his turnover totals so impressive, teams actively went away from him and he still came up with the ball a whole lot. The only thing that may be a bit elevated is his tackle total, because there were many times when no one on that team could tackle but him, where he’d come up in run support as a FS and lay the hit to drop them. Luckily he’s good at that too in a pinch.
Basically it’s really hard to look good at FS, specially on the stat line, if the rest of your defense is terrible. He defied the odds and made the pro bowl on the worst team in the league.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
June 1st
- Great great great write up!
- June 1st or after will probably be when he gets signed if he does.
Up until May 31st the Rams can match every offer given by all teams, so the advantage is with the Rams fully. The Bears/Dolphins/Cowboys/Whoever would have to either pay a huge amount or have the Rams just match a lower than huge amount and save money. That is essentially why the tendered him the lowest level.
A little info on his tendering and why
So that leads me to believe he will be cheaper on June 1st unless you have the magic number of what the Rams are willing to match and what they are not willing to. Plus when he becomes Unrestricted, that urgency might be a little higher plus he will know for sure he is out of the Rams (which he seems anxious to do)
I though you just couldn't decide
which was worthy of the #1!
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Mar 19, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
according to man rules
men aren’t required to number higher than 1, because if we ever deem a list necessary, everything is as important as the next
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I like that thinking
And shalll bring it up next time I feel the need to lose an argument have a discussion with a member of the fairer sex :-D
"F*** everybody outside of Halas Hall. BEARDOWN" - WavyGravy
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
Thank you very much...
I just really don’t see the Rams letting him walk, since he’d only cost them 7 million a year, and the going rate for a safety of his caliber is at least 7.5mil if not more, considering Rolle/Collins deal.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Would they have done that already?
Figure for a guaranteed 7 mill/year he would have signed. Do you know if it is the $$$ or a long term contract Atogwe and the Rams are not agreeing on?
7 Mill is what they would have to pay so why not skip all this and just sign him if you wanted to pay 7 mill. So something is hanging them up, my guess is they don’t want to go that high. So based on that my guess if when that date hits, they will offer something less and he will walk (thinking I deserve more)
Nah, that's the thing...
He doesn’t have a choice really, with the way the tender works either he signs for 1yr/7ish mil on June 1st or w/e, or he doesn’t play.
He’s also a much better player than Rolle, and could be argued to be a much better player than Collins, so he’s probably looking for 8mil a year.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
I think if the Rams really wanted to keep him they would have tendered him at a higher level.
Every team in the league that has a player they feel has some kind of worth they at least expect to get something for him. The tender they placed on Atogowe doesn’t give them any compensation if someone signs him away.
One might say it’s because they plan to match any offer that comes in for him or that they are letting the market set his value. But you have guys who do these contracts for a living ,doing a contract is what they are there for why would you let someone else decide his contract for you and then they may end up paying twice as much for the guy.
I don’t know what their thinking might be, maybe they hope there is not alot of offers for him so they can do the whole see I told you so now take this lowball offer. I’m not sure but I know if they really didn’t want to lose him they would have put more compensation on him from the start.
Adrian Pedestrian!! Now that's funny Mr. Bayless...
That's the thing...
The contract issues have been going on between Atogwe and the Rams for like three years now, he wanted a long term deal three years ago, they said lolno, he said he wanted a long term deal the next year, they said lolfranchise, he said he wanted a long term deal this year, they said lolrestrictedcbafail.
Long story short, the only reason you didn’t hear more about their contract difficulties is because Atogwe is a class act and didn’t hold out, he didn’t skip any workouts, he didn’t do anything other that play football, so there wasn’t a lot of press for it.
The Rams have been saying the whole time that they want a long term deal as well, but it seems over 3 years they haven’t gotten any closer on the numbers.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.....
The Rams have been playing smart money on a very classy kid for a long time now. If I was Atogwe, I’d be pissed. In the end, I don’t think Atogwe leaves StL. I honestly believe that the Rams will match whatever comes up, and I honestly believe that if nobody offers, the Rams will force to $7M tender.
Remember that the Rams had more Cap space than we did last year. They haven’t exactly played the market this year like we have, and teams are preparing for the cap to return. That says to me that the Rams have more estimated cap space to sign Atogwe than we do.
I could be wrong, of course, but it only makes sense that if they haven’t made any huge signing, and they started with more cap space, then they probably have more space left in estimating for the future, even considering that they have the 1st overall pick (and rumor are that the Rams may be looking to trade down). Givne the Rams huge needs at the DL and QB positions, I don’t expect them to let Atogwe get away. They have to many other needs to fill to replace him in the draft reasonably.
In the end, I would predict that Atogwe remains an unhappy but classy Ram.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Agreed.
I’d be extremely pissed as well if I was Atogwe, specially if after being classy during the franchise tag they used the CBA difficulties to basically tag him again.
I also agree that they definitely have the “cap room” to sign him, I just don’t know if they actually want to sign him at that high price tag with the 1st overall pick coming up, and the reports that the franchise itself was hemmoraging money a bit in STL.
Purely football? They’d be somewhat crazy to let Atogwe get loose, unless they got something they needed in return. For instance, I don’t know a ton about the Rams, but my understanding is they had some blocking issues. A guy like Clark might be good for them, very capable blocker and still a pretty good TE. They’ve got Laurinitus in the Middle is is really good, but a guy like HH would be a starter for them I think. Manning wouldn’t be Atogwe, but he could fill in at FS for them.
Honestly, those three guys might make them better than keeping Atogwe. And well, we need to clear out some roster anyway to a certain extent, since we’re crazy deep at all three positions.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
On that point, I would agree....
A sign and trade would be best for us, and maybe them. And I would think that Atogwe, after having been treated the way he has, would absolutely hear harps and see the light when the idea of playing for an organization known for taking care of it’s own first came into the equation. But I don’t see Dez as bait, being that they have a decent set of blocking TEs, and Fells is a respectable, but not spectacular receiver who’s only 26.
HH also falls into a don’t need category for the Rams. Linebackers are the strength of their defense. They have Laurinaitis, Witherspoon, Lenon and Vobora. Witherspoon and Lenin are getting up there, but I see them moving young is any moves are made at all, and HH hits 30 this year.
Manning is really the only three there that I see the Rams seeing as a need. They need help with returns as well, so Manning fits that, as he rated higher than every return man on the SL roster. He can start at eitehr FS or SS, though he still needs to be developed, as Chicago hasn’t seen fit to try that yet. But I see Manning as being good trade bait.
I actually think that one of our young receivers could be good trade bait. Our receivers rate better than StL’s corp, considerably. I know a lot of people aren’t high on our group, but they are in dire straights with their receiving corps, even with Donnie Avery back this season. Kevin Shaffer or Omiyale or even Beekman might also be good trade bait, as they need real help quickly with the offensive line.
Just throwing some ideas out there…..
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Hrm...
We do have two good young LB in Roach and Williams, maybe one of them along with Manning? I know Laurinitis is really good, but I don’t hear a lot about the rest of their group usually.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
Roach or Williams...
might work, as well, considering that, while they have some very solid OLBs, they are aging. Roach and Williams could definitely be good pawns in that chess match…….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Especially when you consider that Witherspoon is......
Now a Titan. I was unaware that he signed with TN. or that he was traded mid season last year to the eagles…………doh!
So adding a nice Roach or Williams becomes even more palatable…….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
+1 for him being classy
Something we do not witness (hemm Manning)
Looked up his contract and it was like 1.36 M for 3 years when he was drafted in 2005. Then the rest you got Franchise and RFA.
So yea, he has played his butt of, proven himself and stayed classy. Just not sure 8 M a year is too high for a FS or not. Before this year wasn’t the top around 4 M?
Nope...
If you dig into the numbers up top, those six safeties were all their contract numbers in ’09.
Also, as noted Polamalu and Sanders both are making about 7.5 mil a year on deals signed in ’07.
Definitely some inflation, but there always is in NFL contracts.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Why are ppl hating on GS
I just read a comment on nfl.com and the guy was talkin shit on Gale Sayers. “Smith and Sharp should both being in there and if Gale Sayers can make the HOF in his short NFL injury plagued career then Terrel Davis who has almost identical stats should be in too..” That was from spidee601. Why all the hate on Sayers
Probably cause
he played a shortened career.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
I think the guy is a broncos fan.
I’m pretty sure they became hostle after the cutler trade.
Yeah, I know first-hand.
I live in Colorado. They certainly have a complex about it.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
so glad I got outta there
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm going to disagree, here....
I don’t think this is hating on Gale. I think this is using Gale as an example to make his point, and hes right, to be fair….
Gale Sayers v Terrell Davis
Games: 68 to 77
Rushing Yards: 4956 to 7607
Rushing TDs: 39 to 60
YPC: 5.0 to 4.6
Y/G: 77.9 to 97.5
Receiving Yards: 1307 to 1280
Receiving TDs: 9 to 5
Fumbles: 34 to 20
Return TDs: 8 to 0 (Davis didn’t return)
Total TDs: 56 to 65
In fairness, Davis matches up very well with Sayes. I think that the guys point was that Davis deserves to be in, not hating on Gale. Hating on Gale would’ve made his own point stupid.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
True
I see where your comin from train. thanx for the stats. I didn’t realize they were that close. Does TD need to be in yes i agree with that. Maybe it was just the way he wrote it. But thank you once again train.
Although Davis has a great postseason record, Gayle has the returns to his name, Gayle also has the 6 TD game, and his unique style of play.
Runners also continued to thrive after Davis’ departure, so maybe a lot had to do with his line, Elway…etc. Davis was a great running back, but other than their length of career, I personally don’t see any further connection between the two
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
pretty unfair analysis, to be honest.....
For all Gale’s greatness, he also fumbled nearly twice as often, didn’t get in the endzone as often even considering his returns, and the guys that followed Davis were average to failures, until Clinton Portis came along. Anderson and Gary had average at best years, following Davis’s HOF worthy years. Not exactly fair. Especially considering that Sayers was followed by Peril, Shy and Harrison (all of whom fall into the Anderson-Gary argument) before the Bears grabbed up Sweetness 4 years after Sayers left.
The path of these guys careers are incredibly paralleled in stats, longevity and circumstance.
Both Played extremely well in the first few years of their careers, spent the last couple of years of their 7 year careers on the bench watching inferior runners do OK to bad because they were hobbled by injury.
Sayers was absolutely great. But Davis was also great. Admitting that doesn’t diminish Gale. In fact, dismissing Davis (a guy who has so many parallels to Gale) may just be diminishing Gale.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
I don't see it as unfair
In no capacity do I wish to diminsh what Davis did for the Broncos, I just don’t see the gravity of it against what Sayers did for the game
Does Davis go into the Hall…maybe, probably, but was it ever a question for Sayers?
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
my point is that it shouldn't have been a question for Davis....
This isn’t a Sayers sucks argument. I think more of Sayers than most do. But Davis was just as accomplished. The difference is that Sayers had little competition in his era for who the best was. Kinda like Neal Anderson, Davis had to deal with Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders.
Had Davis played in a RB shallow timeframe, he’d be considered in the same light. Instead he played in a time frame with the most prolific rusher in history and a guy who’s name pops into the greatest ever argument. That tends to make a difference.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Well that's kinda my point
at the time Sayers WAS head and shoulders above what the league had seen. Davis was outstanding, but also played among NFL giants.
chips fell crappy for Davis, didn’t happen to Sayers, just how it goes, I think that’s how it’s probably voted on.
it’s like the Jordan vs Kobe vs LeBron thing, its so hard to compare the league from different eras.
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
right.....
Sayers WAS head and shoulders above the rest…….but name the rest. He was head and shoulders above Leroy Kelly, Tom Matte and Don Perkins? My point is that, to be fair, Sayers shined in an era of RBs than Mel Farr was a standout in. Sayers didn’t have the same kinda competition that guys like Payton, Smith, Sanders, and yes, Davis had. His rookie year was Jim Brown’s last, and he was pretty much finished when OJ Simpson stormed in.
I’m not taking away from Sayers, he’s absolutely where he should be in history, but had he played 5 years earlier, would he have been considered the best in the league, with Jim Brown storming the fields? Nope. And it would have altered his place in history. That’s exactly why I think that Davis is getting the short end of the stick. Players should be considered on their merit. Not the merit of the players who occupy the league at the same time. If that is the case, then no running back who played while Jim Brown played belongs in the hall. Same goes for any who trudged Walter Payton’s field. Or any LB who shared a timeframe with Dick Butkus, Lawrence Taylor or Jack Lambert. Know what I mean?
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
I mean, come on....
Davis was a 3 time Bro-Bowler,
2 time SB Champion,
3 time All-Pro,
2 time offensive player of the year,
98 NFL MVP and
97 Super Bowl MVP.
In addition the guy has the highest post-season YPC (5.6) and Y/G (142.5) records indicating that he was at his best when it mattered most.
The guy was great.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
good for him
I still have to go with Sayers, every time
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not arguing that....
But being fair, Davis isn’t as far behind as it seems….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Davis will probably get in someday
just blame my defensivness against Denver lately, and the fact that its the Sayers… Kansas Comet
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
can agree with both points :)
I’m just making an effort to be unbiased……….and it’s not as easy as it looks…..
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
no
it isn’t…arrggghhh
"If I were a food critic being asked to write about the meal and experience at Waffle House, I would provide a drawing of two happy fat people giving each other a high five."
by BearNecessities on Mar 19, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I have never seen Sayers play but it is unfair to so he is so much greater than TD...
TD was more valuable to his team. He pushed the Broncos over the hump that they could not get over in the past. People who saw Gale play said that what made him special was that he was great before and after his injury. Even though he had to change his style of running completely from an elusive, make a cut and he’s gone back to a power back. TD accomplishments speak for themselves. It is hard to argue who is better, when they played in 2 completely different eras of the NFL. I like TD better but that is biased. I’m 26 and have really any of the Bears greats play.
by Ryan21 on Mar 19, 2010 1:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
true, but...
TD was what the Broncos needed to win the SB. Without him, they would have done what they had in the past and lost SB after SB. A great player who’s career gets cut short by injury should still be able to get into the HoF.
by Ryan21 on Mar 19, 2010 12:54 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Wow
All this talk about Gale and TD. I actully feel as if i did smething on my 3-day. Train, Bear thanx for all good points you guys bring.
Injury?
Anyone heard how Atogwe’s surgery went?
Anything that will effect or hinder his play, I know it was shoulder surgery but didn’t know the extent.
Yeah, the general thing that I heard...
He dislocated his shoulder against us actually, and had surgery done to repair it.
He’s already been rehabbing it for awhile, and the general information is he’ll be ready for full participation before training camp.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
He'd be a perfect fit then.
He already knows how to get injured in Chicago.
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"Newbie, if the next two words out of your mouth aren't 'See ya' then the third word will be 'Oh my god. My crotch. You've punched me in my crotch." - Dr. Percival Ulysses Cox
by David Taylor on Mar 19, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
*laughs*
He can pick up where Mike Brown left off in more ways than one.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 19, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
+1, Sklz! and rec'd...
I’m not going to rehash our disagreement, as we both spelled out or points very well, yesterday, and in the end, our disagreement is more semantics than substance.
For those that missed our epic discussion that led to this post, here’s the link.
It was a great discussion. We both started out in different places, only to both end up more towards the middle, with more semantical differences than substantial differences. In the end, i think we really only disagreed on how easy it will be to get Atogwe, and when it smartest to go after him.
I’m still have some reservations about this being as easy as it sounds, and why nobody has bitten if it actually is that straight forward. The J Jones article you referenced was interesting, in that it answers some questions, but leaves a lot more unanswered. Either way, it was pretty much what I thought. There was more to the issue than just having money to throw at the player.
Anyways, a truly great article, Sklz. Job well done…….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
Atogwe, really?
Is this the guy we are raving about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtaNTPY3PsI
Watch for 5:00 to 5:45 mark.
For the sake of taking you seriously...
You do realize the fact that the FS is being called upon to tackle the RB means every single other defensive player has failed to stop him, and you’re placing that FS 1v1 against Forte’s best asset. His ability to shift and make people miss in space along with a deceptive burst.
That’s not even mentioning that it’s a highlight reel, which means they are pretty much only going to show plays where defenders get hosed.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
This is the dumbest kind of argument......
He’s a few seconds of video….see, this guy sucks….
Well, if that logic works…..
Urlacher? Really? (vulgarity warning on the second…)
Polamalu, really? (@:50)
I just never saw the point in posting a few seconds of video to comment on a player. Works for commenting on a play, but that’s about it…….
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The act of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.
My point was simply
that on the second (longer) TD, He didn’t even attempt to play defense.
Possiibly (or probably) unfair, maybe he had a bad game, but this is the impression I have of Archuleta…I mean Atogwe. I readily admit that I watch absolutely no Ram games vs. non Bears opponents, but a FS must clean up when ‘every single other defensive player has failed to stop’ someone. He did not in the first illustration and may as well have been on the sidelines for the second Forte TD.

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