Chicago Bears Position Battles: TE
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2010 11:00 AM CDT
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PrintTight End has become the most talked about position on the Chicago Bears since Mike Martz took over as coordinator. The stigma of being not friendly to the position is something that has followed Martz around since he's been calling plays. But aside from Vernon Davis in San Francisco (who was a grade A tool) he hasn't had a collective group as talented as the Bears TEs. He still expects his group to be good blockers, but he also realizes the skill set he has in them, and taking advantage of their talents would be the wise thing to do.
Last season, the Bears started the season carrying four tight ends, and I'd expect them to do the same in 2010. Last week Mike Meuller had an awesome overview of the Bears roster (link will pop), and in the coming weeks I'll take an individual look at the position groups.
The Martz offense utilizes 2 types of TEs, the traditional inline TE and more versatile H-Back. In the latest depth chart, Greg Olsen topped the chart at TE and Desmond Clark was #1 at H-Back. If I'm making some Bears football predictions, I'm thinking free agent acquisition Brandon Manumaleuna is a sure bet to take over as #1 H-Back once healthy and Olsen will continue to be the "man" at TE. Clark will see time at both spots (even though he's not listed as a TE on the depth chart), and Kellen Davis probably will get his playing time solely at TE. Manu isn't listed as an H-Back on the depth chart, but he's done that in the past, as well as play TE. I think his versatility will allow him to do both. Richard Angulo, currently listed #4 as a TE, is a long shot to stick unless he really makes a big impression as a blocker these next few weeks.
Martz offenses in the past didn't use a traditional fullback very often, however in this weekend's preseason game there sure was a lot of Will Ta'ufo'ou on the field. Officially he's listed at #2 as an H-Back, but he's a FB. I think the Bears feel they have a lot of interchangeable parts in their TE/FB group. It wouldn't surprise me to see them keep a combination of 5 on the roster. (But more on the fullbacks when I look at the running backs on Thursday.)
But the really hot topic is how much action Olsen will see in the passing game. Can he come anywhere near his numbers from last season? Last year Greg Olsen looked splendid in training camp, then went out and had his best year as a pro. And he still had his fair share of critics. Now in this year's camp he's finally starting to see some balls thrown his way, and Martz claims he's going to be a viable option in the passing attack... but will he really be? No TE catches in preseason week 1 for Chicago. I think Olsen is a good player, but I have my doubts as to how many receptions he'll get. I think Olsen will need to learn H-Back as well, that way the Bears will be able to move him around the offense even more. And I still think Olsen is on the trade block. I don't think they are actively looking to move him, but if a team loses a TE this preseason I can see the Bears willing to listen to any offers that may come.
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Olsen
sure is getting a lot of attention in camp for a guy you think is on the trade block.
Otherwise I think you are spot on. I expect to see a lot of Olsen in the slot where he is a legitimate down field threat with Manumaleuna in a traditional TE or HB set. This package can shift/audible to passing/running plays depending on defensive personnel.
I think Clark and Davis will make the 53 for depth and ST.
Olsen may not be the best blocker as a TE as his strengths are his height and ability to separate against S and LB, respectively, but he’s not exactly this guy.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
by Pete Dixon on Aug 17, 2010 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
PLEASE NOTE:
The above link contains language that some may find offensive.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
+1 for the link
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
Thanks for the rec!
Interview Adam Schefter and the “Red Snapper”.
Ironically, (and I like irony) he was the NFC Pro Bowl LS in ‘07. Mind you, he’s no Patrick Mannelly.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Maybe Trade Block isn't the best wording
But I do think if the price is right the Bears will move him
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
He was a 1st round pick.
Martz, regardless of his reputation with the TE position, has, at least in practice, showed a great interest in his potential (red zone, skinny post) and has the creativity to utilize Olsen’s skill set, receiver first.
What would you consider to be the right price? I would never put it past this organization and its “value” mindset to totally discount a trade.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Olsen is being highlighted so that he can be shopped
I think the Bears would LOVE to get a 2nd rd draft pick for him, but would settle for a 3rd rd draft pick.
Now, before you put your CAPS LOCK on and tell me “No way!” (haha!), let me say this…
… The Bears have already paid a “hefty” dowry for the overweight and out of shape Bradon Manumaleuna and will likely start him once the season begins for his blocking and knowledge of the system.
Also, Greg Olsen has been working out with the wide receivers this offseason, so he has not really had many reps with the tight ends. In fact, JD reported on ESPN Chicago that he was seen yesterday working specifically with the WR unit for all of his reps.
Desmond Clark has been penciled in as the H-back for this offense and will probably fill the role as the FB/TE for those plays requiring a receiving threat from the backfield. I think any FB for this team— if kept— will be relegated to SP/T or the practice squad.
Finally, Greg Olsen’s contract is up in 2012 and that would mean that he will probably be looking for an “out” or a contract extension in 2011. Manumaleuna is here for 5 years with no sign of decrease in contract until 2013. The Bears should try to get what they can now, before they face the possibility that a team will see that if they “wait for his contract to be up” they can get him for much less than a 2nd or 3rd.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Rumor
I think during the owners meeting the Pat’s offered the third of their three second round picks and JA demanded the first (#44??) of their second round picks.
Maybe just a rumor.
Also agree!
Manny was grossly overpaid as a one dimensional second string TE that has yet to put two practices in a row together :(
Let me see if I have this right.
Olsen is being featured so the rest of the league can see how great he is and we can trade him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick (after drafting him in the 1st round). So I guess we should hope that he has a Pro Bowl year and maybe squeeze a “1” out of him to draft an OL, thus trading a proven commodity for an unknown, albeit a 1st rounder.
Additionally, Maumaleuna is a TE by name only. He’s really a sixth OL that just happens to be an eligible receiver, and he’s 30. Yes, the Bears overpaid but they got him here, Taylor too (win now). I doubt seriously that he plays another 5 years. Dez Clark is 33 and I believe in the last year of his contract.
Again, I would not underestimate Martz creativity nor Management’s “value” oriented mindset.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Some thoughts
Although Olsen was a 1st rd pick…
… He was the 31st selected overall, so saying he is above a 44th pick as pbanachi suggested the Bears were looking for in this year’s draft is a difference of 14 picks— not much of a drop in talent.
Secondly, as I suggested earlier, the Bears have payed Manu big bucks for a 5 year stay in CHicago that will have him see guaranteed money into 2012 in which he will be on the books for almost 2 million that season. Not to say the Bears wouldn’t look to cut him if he doesn’t fit into this system, but Martz sought him out and I think he understands his “OL” status on this team. Now, if Martz were to be fired with Lovie, then you would be seeing another offensive system brought in and ANOTHER year of Cutler getting comfortable in yet another offensive system. Rex Grossman (although not as talented as Cutler) dealt with this here in Chicago and that turned out very bad.
Olsen has also been practicing and lining up with the receivers for the most part of this camp. The Bears have used him in goal line situations as a go-to receiver and he has done well. But, Devin Aromashodu is a tall receive with better leaping ability and has been able to show & prove he can do the same thing. Plus, Olsen has not proven that he is any better than any other receiver on the roster at this point. His strong points are his size and that he and jay are best buds on Saturday night in Chicago.
Finally, the Bears will have to extend Olsen’s contract in 2011 or risk losing him for nothing in 2012. Unless they trade him this season, they can forget getting anything remotely close to that in 2011 when teams will just “wait” until he can leave on his own terms.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Not saying Olsen stinks...
… Just saying that he doesn’t fit our current system.
If the Bears are serious about this Martz thing (which I think they are), then Olsen will either have to excel as a receiver or learn to block and play H-back.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I expect Martz
to utilize Olsen creatively. The variety in personnel/formation shifts creates tremendous mismatch possibilities. I also expect Dez to be gone at the end of the season, retired/FA. At this juncture I don’t see K. Davis as a starting TE. If Olsen were traded there would be a huge void at the position.
My thinking is that Martz, “innovator” that he is, will find creative ways to exploit the talents of all players and further evolve the game, void of FB, etc.
Having said all that, we are Bears fans and should expect to expect the unexpected.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Olsen good, but doesn't fit
While I like Olsen, it’s obious that he doesn’t fit in our current system. We have a logjam of talent at TE (of varying skill sets), but very little talent on the interior of the O-line. I would deffinitely approve of a trade that made our team more balanced.
Olsen has the most trade value of our TEs, and is the one who least fits our offensive system.
In hindsight, I wish we had used the Manu $ for help on the O-line. However, I think Manu will be an asset once we get him on the field (particularly since I think Omiyale is going to need a lot of help).
by MakeHalasProud on Aug 17, 2010 12:16 PM CDT reply actions
Well, Manu's basically an extra Tackle...
So, in effect, his money was used to shore up the OL. If they move Olsen for a mid-level RT or G, then that seals it for OL upgrades.
IMO, they’ll keep 4 TEs on this roster. 2 at the TE, 2 at the H-back. If they don’t trade somebody, it’ll probably be Manu #1 TE, Davis #2 TE, Olsen #1 H-Back, Clark #2 H-Back.
Why trade Olsen for the system?
Who is to say the system is here next year? It has failed in all recent history.
Most teams prefer their TEs to be athletic, able to catch and run routes. So we trade the best we have (in a normal system) for an out of shape whale in Manu, then what? We are worse than we started.
Trade a #1 pick for a 3rd, great deal. Maybe we get another Iglesias, woo hoo. Well it is JA so here is to hoping he gets the ax before it is thrown to the wolves. I am glad they put the choke hold on him with future draft picks at least thus far.
That's true!
… But, you also have just signed a guy for 5 years to a 15 million dollar contract in BM.
Also, you will ahve to come up with a value for him next offseason or risk losing him for nothing in 2012.
I say the Bears should trade now and get something while they have plenty of tight ends who can possibly fill the role.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Manu will be here three years tops IMO.
Sooner if we tank and Martz gets the boot.
WILDCARD BITCHES!!! YEEEEHHHAAAAA!!!!!
But, Olsen will only be here two (barring an extension)?
You can’t have that much money tied up in one position, can you?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
In reality who is going to fill the roll?
If a TE must be more than a blocker again, which they will be, who do you want from our current roster?
Manu – out of shape, over-weight, glorified OL man
Desmond Clark is 33 already
Kellen Davis or Angulo – who?
And I agree with Acreman, the next OC of HC is not going to pay a 5 year 15 mill contract for a OL playing TE just because “He’s a Martz guy”
Speaking of which, if Martz’s system is no more complex than any other, why do we need all these washed up “Martz guys” to play or teach our players how to do it?
But, as of today, Martz is the OC and his sytem is the “law of the land”. If the offense shows promise…
… Next year, do you think the Bears would like to put Jay Cutler through his 4th offensive system in his 6 years?
You can’t cut Manu, can you? And do you think that Olsen is going to sit quietly in 2011 with impending FA in 2012? What value does letting him go into 2011 season without a contract hold for the Bears if they can’t resign him? Especially considering that they are playing him out of position this offseason.
I just don’t see the value in holding onto a player just because he was a 1st round pick if he doesn’t fit the offensive system you employ.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats fine
That is where upper management is going to have to make some limitations. And this is information we will never be privy to.
With all that is “up in the air” this year, I don’t go trading my starting players because they don’t fit someones idea of a system. (Eventhough Martz says he does, Lovie says he does, Cutler says he does, etc.) Especially one system that might be a one and done.
Heck new DC and scheme next year, let’s trade Urlacher because he is undersized right? No, you keep playmakers and try to add more, well if a team wants to win at least.
Also, would they not be able to cut Manu?
But, what has Olsen proven to you as a TE that makes you feel that he is “unexpendable”?
If the Bears are able to get a 2nd round pick from it…
… How is that not a win considering the depth at the position for the offense we currently run?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Because there is no depth
As I stated, we have a 33 year old, an OL man and 2 people that are backups.
I take Olsen any day of the week over our “depth”. Is he elite, no but I like the way he plays TE and has shown great hands and athleticism. Blocking needs some work but throw him with Tice for a week or two and I believe we have a young talented TE for many years to come. I also believe the TE in a passing game, especially with all the new 3-4 and blitzing defenses in the league will become a more important position.
He's been with Tice for more than a week or two
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 18, 2010 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How is that?
He has been reported as working with the receivers, not OL.
Why is that? I do not know, ask the all knowing, powerful, wizard of Lovie. Personally he would have been working solely with Tice until he proved he can cut what Martz needs, maybe he has, who knows?
Why? It's because he "doesn't" want to"/"can't" block
Olsen is not a TE for this team in the sense that they would like to see for their scheme.
That being said, the Bears will keep him as a TE (in name), but they will still keep their traditional 3 blocking/receiving TEs with Olsen as the “fourth”.
That being said, is Olsen faster than any of our top 4 receivers? Better route runner? Better special teamer?
No.
He is trade bait.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats fine
And kind of makes sense when you look at it in Lovie and JA glasses.
Trade your best position player for a 2nd or 3rd rounder, with no depth to back up the void. Yep seems about right.
So, keep him and “force” him into your offensive system instead of getting a 2nd or 3rd round pick that will fit better?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
RE: depth at TE
Olsen is NOT a TE in this offense— he’s being used as a red zone target with the WR. Possibly a possession receiver as well.
In Martz system (and look at it throughout his tenures) he doesn’t keep many TEs or FBs on roster. The ones that are kept are H-backs/blockers/Special teamers.
Olsen doesn’t fit ANY of those roles.
Hence…
… Why he was so upset when he saw the offense and “suggested” a trade early in the offseason.
Your depth at TE is experienced (Dez Clark) skilled at the offense (Brandon Manu) and youthful (Kellen Davis). Plus, Angulo, who at 30 is a good blocker and can catch the football.
It might not be high-calibur top ten TEs, but the Bears TE unit is probably one of the better units-as-a-whole in the league.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Martz's System and TE
This is getting tiring
I don’t know what else to say. He lead the Bears last year in catches. He plays hard, is young, athletic and talented. But let’s give that up for a 33 year old who is about to be retirement age, an unproven guy and a OL as TE.
I guess we will disagree. Good debate though.
End with this..
… IF he’s not traded by week 6— I owe you a shout out/apology.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
The entire practice isn't spent with his position group
I’m sure at some point in the camp or the OTAs the tight ends actually worked with Tice
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 18, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
This v
… And include taht they line him upw ith wide receivers now.
He’s not as fast or nimble as one of our THREE starting receivers (Hester, Knox, or Aromashodu) and he is not going to surplant Iglesias or Bennett.
Why sign him to another deal to be a receiver when you drafted him to be an all-around TE?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
FYI- I meant "Lester's post above" as the This ^
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Most teams...
Keep a 2nd “starting” tight end that is a blocking specialist because you need him for: Goalline formations
Power Running formations
Special Teams Punt/FG formations
That is Big M.
Teams are also now big on having a guy that can be a true receiving threat as well (Celek, Dallas Clark, Finley, Olsen, Greisham, Winslow, etc.)
If you are blessed enough to have a guy that can block really well and is a nasty receiving threat you have an elite, top 5-8 at their position player. (Witten, Gates, Gonzalez, etc.)
Its also valid to point out that the $15 million contract over 5 years isn’t all guaranteed and a large chunk of it is getting paid up front/this year, so after this season how much is he actually getting a year? $2 million? Less? It isn’t going to break our cap when we get a new one in place.
Big M is a perfect #2-#3 TE. The real question is has Olsen proven he is so much better than Clark as a receiver that it is worth the downgrade in blocking skills to field him. I think most 1st round tight ends are a waste, especially a finesse guy.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 18, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed about the system maybe not being here next year
I can however see us failing this year b/c of the defense, Lovie getting fired, and a defensive minded coach coming in and keeping Martz if the offense proves to be successful this year. I personally don’t want Olsen to be traded. I love his athleticism and versatility, great blocking will come with more experience.
WILDCARD BITCHES!!! YEEEEHHHAAAAA!!!!!
So change the system on your quarterback again?
Didn’t we do that with Grossman?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
In that case we should have kept Turdner right?
God, that made me puke to type out
Cutler has already had 3 or 4 systems correct? Who is to say it isn’t similar to one he is better equipped to run or hasn’t run before?
I’m not sayign we should kept Turner.
What I am saying is that your most important element in this situation is Cutler. His comfort with the offense and receivers is the most important concern.
Olsen is not a Tony Gonzalez TE (and even HE was traded at some point), so to thin that at this point in his limited professional career why would you suggest that getting a pick for him (after you’ve committed to another TE long-term) is a bad move?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 17, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong
I’d love to keep Martz here if his offense proves to be successful and efficient and Cutler flourishes. I’d hate to see him have to learn a 4th system in 6 years. It all just depends on how this season goes. If we do great, everything stays in place. If we suck, everything changes.
WILDCARD BITCHES!!! YEEEEHHHAAAAA!!!!!
Is it just me
Or does Greg Olsen look like he’s enjoying that water a little too much.
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2010 2:08 PM CDT reply actions
Olsen
I had heard a rumor (either from reading Brad Biggs or another paper) that NE tried to trade for him at the draft….but why trade your #1 TE??? Just makes no sense to me. This guy can be a matchup problem in this offense and that’s a big part of what this system is designed to do.
They inquired what we wanted for Olsen,
and we asked for a 2nd round pick. NE had two 2nd rounders, but they chose instead to trade up and draft TE Ron Gronkowski in the 2nd.
Didn't they get the Gators TE also?
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
They got Brandon Spikes (LB) from Florida,
but I don’t know about the TE, and I’m too lazy to look it up.
I was too lazy as well
That’s why I threw it out there
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 17, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with the majority of the fans that they will keep 4 TE/H-Backs
Olsen, Brandon. M, and Clark are locks, but that 4th slot is up for grabs between Davis and Angulo.
by Dominique Blanton on Aug 17, 2010 5:29 PM CDT reply actions
If they are going to chose one...
I’m pretty sure it will be Davis over Angulo.
Angulo is a much better blocker
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 18, 2010 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Davis might be better suited to fill the role of H-Back next year though.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 18, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Davis is kind of tall
Most H-Backs are more squatty to lead through the hole like a FB
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 18, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
True.
That’s a good point.
It’ll be interesting to see how the TEs shake out.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 19, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
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