Hester as a Wide Receiver: The Final Discussion?
by Kev H on Aug 23, 2010 7:48 PM CDT
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PrintWe have had here at Windy City Gridiron (aka the best website. Ever. Well, next to this one) the discussion about Devin Hester: Returner or Receiver many times. I hope we can settle this soon, and move along. Let's look at some definitive info after the jump.
Career Stats Receiving Kickoff Returns Punt Returns Fumbles
Season Team G Rec Yds Y/G Avg Lng YAC 1stD TD KR Yds Avg Long TD PR Yds Avg Long TD Fum Lost
2006
CHI
16
0
0
0.0
0.0
0
0.0
0
0
20
528
26.4
96
2
47
600
12.8
84
3
8
2
2007
CHI
16
20
299
18.7
15.0
81
7.0
11
2
43
934
21.7
97
2
42
651
15.5
89
4
7
1
2008
CHI
15
51
665
44.3
13.0
65
4.2
29
3
31
679
ight: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em; padding-left: 0.2em;">21.9
51
0
32
198
6.2
25
0
5
2
2009
CHI
13
57
757
58.2
13.3
48
YAC
34
3
7
156
22.3
44
0
24
187
7.8
33
0
3
1
2010
CHI
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
Career
60
128
1721
28.7
13.4
81
YAC
74
8
101
2297
22.7
97
4
145
1636
11.3
89
7
23
6
Source: Wikipedia
Let's go ahead and admit right now--Yes, he has not had a return touchdown since 2007. But he's also had significantly less carries. There is no doubt that he was an electric return man, and possibly could be again in the right situations. Perhaps, indeed, he would've continued that dominance if he'd remained only a kick returner, but there's nothing that guarantees that. (I'm looking at you, Dante Hall)
But let's take a look at Hester: The Receiver.
Hester as a receiver is something that really first started in 2007, while he was still retaining full time kick duties. In that season, he had 20 receptions, 2 TD, and 299 yards, averaging 15 yards per catch.
In 2008, 51 rec for 665 yards, 3 TD, and a 13 average in yards per catch.
In 2009, the first season they really started to feature him as a prominent receiver, he only played 13 games, but managed to keep up his 13 yards per catch average, with 57 receptions for 757 yards and 3 touchdowns.
This is, of course, in an offense known to not take the big shots often, or prominently feature the passing game.
So it is, in fact, potential that he has been converted on. But how is that any different than how a player is drafted out of school? No one is ever certain how a college player will play upon entrance to the NFL, but those with potential are granted millions and millions of guaranteed dollars before they've even played a down.
So why not take one of the most naturally gifted players you have and try to get him into the game more? I don't think any of us would be mad if Hester had over 1000 yards receiving and 8-10 TDs. Hell, his potential even works in factors when he ISN'T EVEN ON THE FIELD. Teams are required to dedicate the safety help to the person on the field who could run past their cornerback and not even notice.
The other thing--the Bears aren't the only team who would have tried to convert him, and you have to consider the fact that Hester himself wanted to do more. If he hadn't gotten the chance to convert positions with the Bears, he could be on another team doing it. That is something we probably don't want.
Point being: Hester should be on the field as often as possible. You have to use your best talent as often as possible, and he's just as effective lining up in different receiver positions (and in the end around plays we saw on Saturday night) that you need to use him.
So how about this--with a new system, let's give him a year to adjust to something that might fit his abilities even better. Until then, let's not have the "He should've stayed a returner" conversation.
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Hester should not have stayed as returner-only forever.
Was he an all-time great returner? For two years, he was the best returner in the game and one of the most electric players ever. So why not get that kind of talent on the field more? Even if he’s kept at returner, there’s zero guarantee that he doesn’t experience a dropoff in production, and zero chance of duplicating those return numbers – teams wise up eventually, stop kicking to him, that sort of thing (and there is field position benefit to that, I’m not saying there isn’t). But if other teams are trying to null your best weapon (and the above way isn’t exactly exhausting to the returner), you use another way to redeploy your weapon, don’t you? I have very little issue with moving Hester to WR – he’s a very serviceable player with great tools, and we could see some serious growth here especially this year if Cutler can stay on his damn feet.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 8:12 PM CDT reply actions
I whole heartedly agree.
Hester has just begun in earnest to work on his receiving skills the past 2 years. Its likely that in the Ron Turner system he was not getting quality tutoring. Now, in the Martz system he will have more opportunities for down field plays, he even has Issac Bruce giving coaching him. I think he has all the tools to be a #1 receiver, notwithstanding his height. Look at Steve Smith, Wes Welker and the like. The only differences I see between those type receivers and Hester is, coaching and experience. Hester has both now (not Lovie) and has pretty good speed on top of that. Give him a couple more years to learn his craft and you’ll see one outstanding football player.
"Most important thought, if you love someone, tell him or her, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store." ~ The Great Walter J. Payton.
Steve Smith
You are putting Hester in some pretty solid company, future HOF’er in fact. I am just not sure we are watching the same player. I do agree the Martz system will probably give him a couple more touchdowns this year but thats it. However giving Hester another 2 years means 5 + years of development, too long my friend.
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Steve Smith future HOF? Really?
I’ll just say I’m skeptical. Or were you going with the Isaac Bruce angle in which case he’s only being coached by him, not compared to him.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
Type receivers, meaning Height
Short receiver, as opposed to Randy Moss, tall receiver. Besides, he’s only been a receiver for 2 years with an average of 50 catches and 13 yrd average in a lousy offense.
"Most important thought, if you love someone, tell him or her, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store." ~ The Great Walter J. Payton.
Smith
Steve Smith has 8300 yards and 50 touchdowns in 9 years in the league and one of those was an injury year. Jerry Rice had around 10,500 by 9 years and quite a few more TDs closer to 100 than 50, but he also had unbeleivable QBs to throw to him a lot of those years. Bruce has about 10,000 yards at 9 years and about 60 TDs If Smith sticks around another few years which he probably will these look like a compeling case for HOF. Yes/No?
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh...
I’d say he needs to turn it up a little here on the downturn.
Bringing Matt Moore along and getting about 1300~1400 yards this year should help the case.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Past HOF receivers
Looks like for modern receivers 10,000 yards and around 60 TDs is the cut off with a few exceptions Sterling Sharpe, Lynn Swan. I see Smith making these numbers barring a major injury. But for sure he would need to keep the fat in the fryer to make the numbers. Anyway good discussion guys.
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions
If Isaac Bruce is your 9-year benchmark
Steve Smith 1.0 (with NYG SS being 2.0) needs to have a high-caliber season (if we’re dumping his injury year) for me to consider him… right now he’s outside looking in even on Bruce, let alone Rice.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Forget steve smith.
Does moose make the HOF?
You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes.
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 24, 2010 8:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Isn't he dead?
He went to Chicago and that’s where receivers go to die, so I would assume he’s dead.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Zombie Moose played a year for the Panthers after the Bears buried him.
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
"Fellas, what are they, unblockable? Is that the '85 Bears over there?" - overheard at Giants' '06 training camp
~~~ Check my profile for links for SB20 and America's Game: '85 Bears ~~~
Not a chance in hell is S. Smith a HOFamer.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Strong statement
Can you provide some stats or facts to back up your statements? Not sure his stats justify a “not a chance in hell”. I dislike the guy personally but he is a hell of a WR.
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Propheteer is right though
no superbowl wins, and there is too much of a bottleneck at WR, to even begin to look at Smith. Andre Reed, Chris Carter, hell even Isaac Bruce and Tory Holt…Smith is also playing with Hines Ward, who should be in someday, and probably Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson…just too much competition
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 3:26 AM CDT up reply actions
seriously
nitpicking…project out there numbers
Johnson has averaged 105 catches and 1,500 yards a season or something like that in the last couple years…and fitz is right there… steve smith is good yes, but there is a lot of other elite WRs out there, gonna be trying to get in HoF too…does smith stand out above all them?
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Never said Smith was HoF either
I just said it’s too early to throw guys into the HoF… Let’s wait and see how they do by their…say…10th year. Then we can give them the jacket
I agree with no chance.
Sorry but I’ll give you some of my logic to support it, whether you agree or not is all up to you!
At age 30, Steve Smith is #64 on “all time receiving yards” behind active players Lavernues Coles (32), Donald Driver (34), Reggie Wayne(31) , Chad Ochocinco (31), Galloway (38), Ward (34), Mason (35), Muhsin Muhammad (36), Holt (33), Moss (32), and Owens (36). He is only up 400 yards on Andre Johnson (28) and 1,200 up on Fitzgerald (26).
He is 68th on the career Receptions list. Boldin, TJ Housh, Andre Johnson, Driver, Coles, Wayne, Ochocinco, Mason, Ward, Holt, Moss, Owens all ahead of him with Fitz only 51 behind and 4 years younger.
He is tied for 96th in career TDs. Fitz, Mason, Ochocinco, Wayne, Holt, Ward, Moss, Owens, and a ton of active TEs are all ahead of him.
He has no rings. He has broken no NFL records (Single Game, Season, or Career) to my knowledge, though he has set most of the Panthers receiving records.
If he isn’t a top 20, let alone a top 10 STATISTICAL receiver, and he has never won ANYTHING, and he doesn’t hold any records from a Game/Season/Career perspective, how is he a hall of famer?
I think people confuse “recurring pro-bowler” with “Hall of Famer” too often. He isn’t even top 50 all time yet in any categories and he isn’t even the beating out most of “his generation” of receivers. Let’s exclude Owens because he is 6 years older and maybe Fitz because of 4 years…But you have to compare him to Randy Moss, Hines Ward, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, and Ochocinco and be able to say he is HANDS DOWN better than all of them before you can even think about a HOF career.
He needs to win rings, he needs to set records, and he needs to statistically catch up to his peers, and in some cases, his younger competitors.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
That's all good and well,
but where does that leave Devin?
"Most important thought, if you love someone, tell him or her, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store." ~ The Great Walter J. Payton.
Not a HOF player either.
So I won’t get into that much…At least not based on receiving, if he adds a few more KR/PR scores to his career he can at least have 1-2 “NFL” records…His receiving start came too late to match with guys like Fitz.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for researching
I don’t have the time at work to do it, so REC for you my good man/woman!
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
you made the statistical argument
i was too lazy to expound on
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
It is a strong statement
but like BearNecessities mentioned, he’s below a lot of other WRs with much greater stats and accolades. Smith will have to pick up his pace dramatically in order to even have a chance to be elected. Jerry Rice set the bar so high that it will be very difficult for any good or even elite (short term) WRs to make it.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
44 votes
And I’m the only one to comment? What is the matter with you people.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 8:29 PM CDT reply actions
You know at 8:30 at night some people who have families
put down the laptop and spend time with the people they haven’t seen all day. Most of them use their work time to dedicate to responding to posts. That’s the smart thing to do, might as well get paid to debate the Hester returner v. wide receiver debate.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 6:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I know I know.
I was messing around, man.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 9:47 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I know, it was early when i wrote that. I was crabby from getting up
and being at work and all that jazz.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Blame work only.
I know I do.
…
Is it week one yet?
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Not week one yet but it's just around the corner.
Thankfully we have Arizona this weekend and they may be worse than us.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
We said that about the Raiders...
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I know not what you speak of. That never happened.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Spoken like Blago and Clemens.
Deny deny deny. ;-)
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 3:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Shhh don't tell my secret.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Not mocking you sir, simply disagreeing.
he’s a very serviceable player with great tools
He may develop into a good receiver. I don’t think he’ll become a great one. I may be wrong. Knox is looking like he has the edge at speed and Aromashodu is looking like he has better hands. Develop Bennett or Iglesias and go from there. Personally I think it’s too late. We’ve DMSed him, quite frankly (DB/ KR/PR to WR/PR) but what we really did was take one of the best ever as a returner and try to squeeze a little more out of him to justify paying him highly to “just” return kicks and punts. The man was absolutely electric at what he did and greed ruined him. All the way around. He’ll be above average at lots of stuff from here on out, but the absolute all time greatness we could have had on special teams? Gone baby, gone.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
I wasn't saying "great receiver."
I said “Serviceable player with great tools.” Excellent speed and elusiveness, my main questions were “can he make a tough catch,” “can he take a big hit and not fumble,” and “can he tone down the mind-numbing mistakes.”
Again, future performance is no guarantee. We don’t know what would’ve happened had he stayed a KR/PR, but I’m not buying that he would’ve maintained that hella-ridiculous pace. And if more and more people were gonna start kicking away from him, may as well try to get the ball in his hands more consistently and do something with that speed.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
He has some issues left....
but Hester has our best reception percentage and he has lined up against teams best CBs the last 2 seasons. He was well on pace for a 1000 yard season last year before injury. I don’t think we are going to be talking about Hester alongside Randy Moss or Larry Fitzgerald, and he is too far behind to probably EVER warrant a look at a HOF career from a receiving perspective…
But he can be a 1000 yard receiver. He can reliably push corners and get 1st even in games where he is less effective (last year, Pittsburgh). Talent wise, potential wise, and even performance wise you could convince me Hester is a #1 receiver, just not a top 10 #1 receiver…Which is fine, because only 10 teams can have a top 10 #1 receiver. Are there 32 other receivers in this league with higher ceilings and better production to games played at the position ratios? I don’t think so personally.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not buying it
I still contend they took arguably the best returner in the game and diluted that threat. I think he would have continued to be a difference maker as a returner, he has patently failed to be a difference maker as a wide out. I am certain he has made progress but your number 1 receiver needs to be exactly that a number 1, not some half baked project. In that 3 years we could have traded for or aquired a true number one receiver. I just am salty that the special teams threat he provided is gone now and he will always be a mid tier reciever. my 2 cents.
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 8:33 PM CDT reply actions
I'll be right back with my comments.
A truck just ran over a horse in front of my house and I need to go find a big stick.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Aug 23, 2010 8:33 PM CDT reply actions 8 recs
Here's one from the "Olsen is Soft" threads.
It’s gotten a little use, almost broke in half, but still useful.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
awesome.
-------
Stupid babies need the most attention!
by David Taylor on Aug 23, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Best comment in awhile- rec
I’m seriously tired of it myself, and sick to death of defending him as a WR. It’s really pointless to even discuss it anymore. His numbers have increased significantly the past three years in a terrible offense and scheme. So what’s the problem here?
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
That's the point of the whole article.
I don’t want to see it again during the 2010 season. Everyone can get it out here, and we can be on our way.
If I did what I love for a living, what would I do in my free time?
Writer at windycitygridiron.com {-/-} http://www.twitter.com/kdoggers
Now...Kev...Come on
You know some jabroni is gonna say, the first time Hester makes a mistake
“blah blah blah full time returner, blah blah blah slot reciever”
Oh, I know full well.
However, we can just let that comment sit and be lonely like a nerd on prom night. Threads are irritating when they just boil into the same discussions over, and over, and over.
If I did what I love for a living, what would I do in my free time?
Writer at windycitygridiron.com {-/-} http://www.twitter.com/kdoggers
Kev
i’m with on this…but i tried this with the Cutler debacle last year…and any time i mentioned moving past it…300 comment threads would pile up..almost on purpose, it’s like saying “don’t touch that button” and walking out the room.
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Threads are irritating when they just boil into the same discussions over, and over, and over.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with that statement. Can you explain to me why exactly we didn’t go after Matt Jones or Braylon Edwards, or are not waiting for the parole of Plaxico?
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
What about trading our draft picks
I like that talk too…oh oh oh…wait, Orton just wins
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Greg Olson: Soft as a down pillow.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Charmin soft.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The reason we didn't go after any of them is because
we’re reasonably sure that we will re-sign Brandon Rideau after the CFL season is over……
Or until it appears he lines up wrong
or seemingly can’t understand the play.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
I like it
blah blah blah slot reciever
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 24, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it was a mistake to move him like we did....
But that conversation has sailed. We shouldn’t have made him more than a #4-#5 receiver UNTIL his return skills dipped or he finished learning the position (his gimmick introductory year of 2007 did NOT make him a full time wideout). making him a near starter in 2008 was a painful transition for him, for our team and took his return skills down from fatigue/lack of returns practice.
Now it is too late to say “should we have” and the real question now is “can we put him back…” and I think he has progressed too far as a receiver to be dropped to #5 on the depth chart and made a full time returner…Especially since we have 2 other successful returners behind him. I like the “punt returner only” designation, its where he had the best career success as a returner and lets us use him as a receiver full time.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions
This was an absolute guarantee
We shouldn’t have made him more than a #4-#5 receiver UNTIL his return skills dipped or he finished learning the position (his gimmick introductory year of 2007 did NOT make him a full time wideout).
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Exactly. I thought it was a bad move, but it's a moot point.
It’s like debating whether Gesiakob should have posted that shirtless photo for his avatar. Regardless of your feelings on it, it’s long since past and the damage can’t be undone no matter how much bleach you pour in your eyes. It’s time to move past it.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
It’s like debating whether Gesiakob should have posted that shirtless photo for his avatar.
No debate that never should’ve been posted.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Good thinking!
And we can get back to the “Greg Olsen is trade bait” discussion.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
I really hope people stop dwelling as well
and take the positives of his game. My worry is he gets hurt and can’t prove people wrong. Last season he was well on his way to ultimate glory until his injury derailed a very good year.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
You really know how to tell a story. Nice to have you around.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Hester should be MORE of a returner than he is now but...
he should not have remained solely a KR/PR. He is a legitimate WR threat and if he is used correctly, he can be a catalyst for big plays and offensive explosion. Alas, like that second doughnut, it’s better in small doses. Hester fits in well to a complimentary WR role. He can play well out of the slot in 3-4 WR sets. He can be both a decoy and a target. If he were used sparingly, decisively, and strategically on offense, he’d have more TDs and big plays if not as many catches. Which is fine. Let him be rested to return punts/kicks more often. The Lovie Smith era of ignoring the reality as if one’s will could alter the very fabric of reality has taken over. The insistence that Hester should be a primary or #1 WR actually takes away from his utility on offense and ST! What a waste of such a unique talent.
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO FIRE LOVIE!
I had no issue getting him on the field.
Occasional slot guy/deep threat? Sure.
“Well, we went this far, let’s finish it and make him a #1.” God no.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 23, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
^ This.
Good stuff. Use him like Cleveland uses whatshisname? Ya know, that guy. Josh Cribbs.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
The insistence that Hester should be a primary or #1 WR actually takes away from his utility on offense and ST!
It’s just a title and means virtually nothing. When is the last time the Bears actually had one? Moose? No. Graham? Maybe. Conway? Maybe as well.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Marty Booker
The last pro bowl bastion at the position. The last in over 25 years….
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
I knew I was forgetting someone
He was a marginal #1 at best, cause he only had two 1k seasons and his ypc was pretty substandard.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Yeah he was marginal but...
he did make this catch. I know one catch doesn’t make a career but it was a great catch. Also we get to see Lovie actually win a challenge, very rare, it’s like seeing a Liger you know they exist but not many people have ever seen one in person.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 6:46 AM CDT up reply actions
haven't looked
but is this the one challenge Lovie won?
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes it is.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
/sigh
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
A long time ago
in a football universe far far away.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
That was awesome
It was such a great catch that the ref failed to make the right call, because he was in awe of Marty’s grab.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
I agree to a point about the #1 WR title...
but the issue is more about the WR role Hester plays now. He is often lined up opposite Knox and on the LOS on too many of the offensive plays. Hester cannot get separation off the line with anything resembling consistency. Thus he’s easy to single cover and/or reroute. By lining him up at the wrong position/role, the Bears end up with 2 bad outcomes:
1. Hester is less effective
2. Some other guy who could be more effective is not playing
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO FIRE LOVIE!
Agreed. I think he lacks the strength/tools to effectively get off "bump and run" coverage consistently.
I’d love to see him primarily in the slot, motioning, lining up in the backfield, and running reverses, end-arounds, and pitches. Use his speed and finesse against the defense and not against Hester himself.
This also lets us keep a speedster(Knox) and big bodied receiver(DA) on the outside where they both belong.
WILDCARD BITCHES!!! YEEEEHHHAAAAA!!!!!
Here is one to chew on
I commented Hester will never be a true number one, should the Bears have gone out and gotten T.O. or tried to make a trade for Boldin? How come we never go out and get a wide out, we seem to develop some decent ones and let them go in free agancy (Berrian) so how about it?
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 8:40 PM CDT reply actions
Out draft picks were already depleted from prior trades, and TO is certainly not the answer.
Berrian was not and is not a complete receiver; he’s primarily a deep route guy. I had no problem with them letting him walk considering the money he was asking for. He hasn’t exactly flourished since then either, as he’s now the fourth option is Minnesota’s passing game.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
Boldin went for a 3rd and a 4th
Not exactly as costly as Cutler in terms of picks. Once we mortgaged the farm for Cutler the arguement to just go all the way on free agency becomes a compelling one. Also I dont have faith in the Bears drafts the past few years but it looks like they got Major Wright right. Anyway The discussion is Hester and he still hasnt had the breakout year, will he ever?
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd love to have Boldin
but receiver is not our most pressing need at this moment. Of course, if they’d done a better job of actually filling our needs with said draft picks (besides Wright), I’d be a lot more confident in my argument.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
I love Berrian
Because he took all of the Vikings money to be their #3-#4 receiver!
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
observations
I remember that many Bears fans, if not a majority, were clamoring for Hester to be made into a WR when it became evident that his return skills were amazing. It was said he needed to get in the game a lot more often that just during returns – get his hands on the ball as often as possible. I really agree with LostInSTL’s comment about the Lovie Smith era of ignoring reality – the reality that Hester cannot be a primary #1 receiver. As Lost said, he needs to be used sparingly and strategically. His contract incentives probably discourage that kind of use.
"Stay thirsty, my friend."
I wasnt clamoring
But good observation, and I think we all agree Lovie smokes some really good crack, its the only explanation.
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Aug 23, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Not just a kickoff specialist
He should have remained a CB
In life, a man is either the hammer or the anvil. Ndamukong Suh is both
Pride of Detroits village idiot
How many TD’s could you really expect Hester to have year after year as a KR/PR? Realistically if Hester was as successful as a few years ago, other teams would just find ways to keep the ball away from him. While he may not become a legit number one, I think it is worth the gamble because at least the Bears offense can attempt to dictate how much they get the ball in his hands. Isn,t Rick Upchurch or someone the all time special teams TD career leader with something like 15 or 16 total TD’s? Hester has as good of hands of any Bears WR in recent memory, with so many years of lack of offense it seems to be worth the gamble.
hester
would never be that successful again hell they were already doin everything in 07 to kick away from—sure great field position but our offense couldnt do anything with it. Hester could be a really good reciever if he was opposite a true number one that takes the double teams and some of the attention away from him, understand i dont get much of a chance to watch the games but the few i do they were not utilizing him the way they should have at reciever—slot is his calling
Hester should be a pure CORNERBACK!!
Why did they ever have him switch positions?? They’ve completely ruined him and misused his talents!!!
by DisCUBbobulated on Aug 23, 2010 11:16 PM CDT reply actions
Hester may have been
The worst CB in the history of football. Really.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Devin Hester is quickly becoming...
the Danieal Manning of the offense.
except better
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 3:29 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
The Hester experience vs. the Manning experiment you just can’t compare. Hester has more skill at his established position than Manning. I’m not sold on Manning one bit. Everyone says he has all this potential and that he just needs to stay in one postion and he’ll be fine. Did anyone ever give thought to the fact maybe he’s just not good enough at any of the 17 positions he’s lined up at. Maybe he’s just a decent DB and an above average returner although I’d rather have Knox return kicks. I present video evidence that may just make you smack yo mama. Link whiffs on tackles like well you know.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 6:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Hester is a really good athelete
WR, maybe. DB, maybe, we’ll never know.
Solely a return man? he’s really good.
the way they used him in 07 was the best, use him on offense as a special weapon, teams aren’t expecting it(as much) DBs would be nervous to cover him, because of reputation. plus he’s still primarily our return guy… he had like 8TDs that year total…most production outta him, scoring wise.
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 3:29 AM CDT reply actions
Fact
Hester as return man = serious threat and a virtual highlight reel. Teams had to plan around him.
Hester as a WR = decent numbers and possibility.
Return > WR
Now utilizing him more would have been beneficial and he still might become great but never what a prototype #1 can offer in that position. Blame JA or Lovie or whoever for not drafting a true #1, it is irrelevant but Hester could make a true threat in the slot or as a switch up man on the outside, wildcat or anything with a little creativity I believe. As the #1 he remains a project, no matter what #’s he throws up there.
by TheMan1 on Aug 24, 2010 6:55 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Stop already
Hester would have went over 1000 yards recieving last season and had over 70 plus receptions if not for being injured in three games and not playing in those games. There was a 5 week stretch last season where Hester was second in the league in receptions behind only Larry Fitzgerald. I say he is a very solid reciever, and he will thrive in Martz offense if the O- LINE comes together.
by Dozjah on Aug 24, 2010 7:45 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
There are TE's putting up those numbers too though
But I agree he should have a big year in the new offensive scheme
That's what I'm talkin' bout.
Finally, someone sees what I’ve been seein’! Go Bears!
"Most important thought, if you love someone, tell him or her, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store." ~ The Great Walter J. Payton.
Has anybody taken durability as cause for concern?
He’s always hurt nowadays. Also, those that believe Hester can be the number 1 receiver in this offense actually beleive He’s the best on the team? Hester is gifted, but any talk of him as a probowler is juvenille. A 70 catch 1,000 yard season is not impossible for him, and should be expected in a martz offense. But he has to be on the field in order for him to reach those expectations.
You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes.
by ifuwannacrownem on Aug 24, 2010 8:45 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
It's rare
for a great return specialist to maintain his pace… for every Brian Mitchell, there are countless players that have a good few year stretch then fade away…
On the flip side, it’s rare to take a return specialist and make them an elite receiver…
I like the chance the Bears took, and I think they’ll be rewarded with a solid NFL WR in Hester.
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 24, 2010 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Hester needs to remian at receiver.
Who else is going to run that deadly end around?
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Hester's spot on this team...
should be the WR3/slot receiver. The man can flat-out run and would be a mismatch against any CB3/SS/OLB. Against a CB3, he turns them around with his insane moves and jukes. An SS would protect the outside only, slant city baby. And he’d just run straight past any OLB covering him.
As far as WR1? We don’t have one. But, we do have at least two legitimate WR2s in Knox and DevA. Possibly a third in Bennett. Cutler’s made it no secret that he loves DevA and wants him in the game as much as possible. Knox is the best raw wideout this team has seen since Chris Carter. Give him some halfway decent coaching (why isn’t Bruce officially on our staff?), and he could turn into a legitimate WR1. Bennett has the route-running skills and soft hands, but he doesn’t have as much talent or smarts as I’d like him to have. Probably a backup WR1/2. Just keep him at one position.
For Hester, just make him learn the slot and only the slot, and he’ll be a beast and a half. Even from the slot position, you can run those silly little end-arounds and bubble-screens that Bears fans so love (and I so hate). But just drop him in the slot and let his fancy feet do the talking around players that can’t really keep up with him.
This could be the right answer
Though I would argue with your assertion that Knox is on his way to the “#1 job”. If Hester has size issues and strength issues, Knox is terminal. Knox, granted as a rookie, but struggled a lot more catching the ball last year (Hester 63% receptions to targets, Knox about 52%). He personally admitted to (and I agree with) causing 3 interceptions. I thought it was 4, but I won’t nitpick. He has great potential but he reminds me more of a Lance Moore in New Orleans than a Steve Smith or anything else in Chicago.
I think our best possible receiving line up in a perfect world with what we have would be Aromashodu and Bennett on the line, Knox and Hester in the slot(s). You can package that in 500 different ways. Sadly, Bennett is hurt and slow to recover despite being a great possession receiver for us (and thus a great #2). D.A., if anyone, is the guy with potential to hit “#1” status. Its a “size” league at that position right now. Outside of Steve Smith and now 8 years behind him MAYBE DeSean Jackson, the best receivers have the size to make more plays.
We don’t necessarily need a dominant #1, New Orleans has shown you can spread it out and share the ball well with a good group of wideouts. That seems to be our goal this year. I would worry a lot more about the O line than where we put our 4 capable but not dominant receivers.
by Brendan Hess on Aug 24, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Saints have Colston
A 70 reception, 1000+ yards every year receiver, well maybe except 1 when he was hurt.
Standing at 6’4" and 220+
Hester's issues run deeper than just size and strength...
He’s just not a natural outside WR. His route running is subpar at best, his intelligence is questionable. Yes, he’s got speed, but that’s about it.
Knox has Hester’s speed. Yes, he’s smaller than Hester. But he also looked to run pretty crisp routes last year when he didn’t give up on them (chalk that up to rookie ignorance) and has very soft hands. He also seems to have at least enough intelligence to learn a single position on the field.
I agree that Bennett should be seeing more reps on the field, probably as a #2 guy on the outside. But with his injury situation and his redshirting his first year due to basically not knowing a VERY simple Turner offense, it could take a couple more years before he really knows what he’s supposed to do. He’s a backup to the outside WRs at this point in his career.
What I would LOVE to see is twin Hester/Knox Go routes from the inside combined with crossing routes across the middle from DevA and Bennett from the outside. Who you gonna cover in that situation? Of course, that only works if the defense is playing an odd cover defense (think C-1 or C-3), and is content to leave only 4 DBs to cover our 4 speedstars.
redshirting his first year due to basically not knowing a VERY simple Turner offense
Learning all 3 positions at once as a rookie can’t be that easy, even though we’re all gridiron geniuses from the comfort of our own armchairs.
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
"Fellas, what are they, unblockable? Is that the '85 Bears over there?" - overheard at Giants' '06 training camp
~~~ Check my profile for links for SB20 and America's Game: '85 Bears ~~~
He's known
to have very good hands. I’ve read it in numerous places. The knock against him is his route-running, but supposedly he’s improved a lot this past year.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Hester at WR
The greatest threat in the NFL in the last two decades and they have to justify paying him so they made him a WR….Maybe the worst decision made by this management team. He had teams kicking 10 yds. out of bounds and giving us the ball on our own 40!! Imagine what Jay could do w/ a short field!! Typical Lovie/Angelo guy is great at one spot but they havve to change positions. There are more enough WR on this team that the production would not change much….maybe the TE and RB make more catches as a result….that’’s why C. Taylor was signed anyway…he ’s an above-average receiver out of the backfield.
Retrospective is great, ain't it?
Ok, now let’s go back to the real situation – it’s 2008 and you don’t have Jay, you have the honorable Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman show at QB, and the WRs on your team are old, bad, or both. You have the fastest, most elusive player on the team who has led the league in returns for the last two years. Other teams have learned that you shouldn’t let the KR/PR beat you. Why not try to get this player more consistent touches at the least as a slot threat?
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Somebody is using logic.
You bring up a valid point, we can’t look at it from what we know and say they never should have made the move. It makes sense to take the most elusive and dangerous player in the open field you have and find a positon for them and present the opportunity to put the ball in his hands as much as possible. It’s not like they didn’t do that with him in college either.
If Mike Ditka punched you in the face, you'd have to fight off the urge to thank him.
by Ditkavsworld on Aug 24, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
I’m not sure how many of us, when presented with the same situation at the same time and the same resources, wouldn’t have tried the same in-house solution.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 24, 2010 3:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Pfff, you and your logic
Irrational foaming at the mouth is where it’s at.
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
"Fellas, what are they, unblockable? Is that the '85 Bears over there?" - overheard at Giants' '06 training camp
~~~ Check my profile for links for SB20 and America's Game: '85 Bears ~~~
I just wasted five minutes
trying to sound like a complete meatball. My fingers rebelled and refused to hit Post.
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 25, 2010 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Hester was SO good at returns
that the second we moved him, he was doomed anyways… as long as he isn’t Andre Johnson, it’s a failure to the fans, because of how dominant he appeared in the return game. (much of that awesome ST unit is gone now as well)
so take that for what it’s worth.
He's a 300-pound man who moves like a defensive back. That's what you're dealing with." — Bears coach Lovie Smith on DE Julius Peppers
by BearNecessities on Aug 24, 2010 2:02 PM CDT reply actions
Something to be considered
The other Devin would be Hester’s likely replacement at WR, if the fall off is not large and Hester can improve his return abilities, a slightly reduced role could be beneficial.
Some of you are missing the point
The constant harping on Hester being a no. 1 WR is really beside the point. A coach cannot make someone be a number 1 reciever. He can say what he wants and put him on the field but only the guy"s talent and Qb can push into that number 1 status..People seem to have forgotten the QB’s the Bears had prior to Cutler and his jump in production the 1st year they were together. It’s not far fetched at all to expect 1000 yards and 6-10 td’s from him this year. Why not? he was on pace for 1000 yards last year in Turner’s system so reaching that mark should be well within reach for him.
They did what they should have done by getting him on the field more and i think people should hold off on their judgement on the move until after they go thru this season with an OC who actually has an idea of how to utilize a guy with his skillset..It only makes sense..Btw itz not like the Bears havent had a pro bowl returner and a guy lead the league in return yards since Hester’s dip in production hello Knox and D. Manning..
I only need 2 words for my sig now....."NBA CHAMPS"
they go thru this season with an OC who actually has an idea of how to utilize a guy with his skillset
Martz said earlier in the offseason that he wanted to use him in the slot. The Word from On High came down and overruled it.
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
"Fellas, what are they, unblockable? Is that the '85 Bears over there?" - overheard at Giants' '06 training camp
~~~ Check my profile for links for SB20 and America's Game: '85 Bears ~~~
We'll know by the end of this year
Hester is turning 28 this November and has yet to post a 1000 yard season. If he doesn’t produce huge numbers by the end of this one, in a much more crowded group of receivers in terms of talent and production (when compared to what we have on this roster), he must be called a failed experiment. This is Devin’s make or break year. His speed will only decline as he ages and gets bruised on the football field. He’s posted 2300 yards in four seasons. Yes he had injuries. Yes he was in a Ron Turner offense. In the end it does not matter. He simply hasn’t gotten it done yet and this is his fifth year at receiver, in a new offense. His excused “learning curve” years are far behind him.
by Marvel_89 on Aug 24, 2010 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post
Thanks.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
I think they made the right move by moving Hester to WR.
The problem was anointing him as the #1 receiver. I would like him as a #2 or #3 slot receiver where he can get a clear release off the line of scrimmage.
by Dominique Blanton on Aug 24, 2010 10:30 PM CDT reply actions
Agreed
and another point, that we all seem to forget, is along with the expectations the Bears braintrust put on him is the fact that he was never trained as a WR in college. Outside of a few “trick” plays designed around him, our idiots assumed he would be a main receiver in his first full year playing that position. Playing WR at the NFL level is a lot more than speed and being able to catch a ball.
That would be like taking a D-lineman mid-round draftpick who they saw throw a ball 90 yards in the air a few times in practice and make him your starting QB. How could anyone think any player could learn a new position while playing at the highest level of that sport with only an off-season to prepare?
When all is said and done, this is another in a long line of stupid decisions that will be this regime’s undoing.
That would be like taking a D-lineman mid-round draftpick who they saw throw a ball 90 yards in the air a few times in practice and make him your starting QB.
You’re going to give them ideas…..
"44 years of football history and nothing to show for it. I wish I wasn’t banned at the Norseman.." - tfrabotta
"Fellas, what are they, unblockable? Is that the '85 Bears over there?" - overheard at Giants' '06 training camp
~~~ Check my profile for links for SB20 and America's Game: '85 Bears ~~~
Or like taking a CB from the Arena League and deciding he's be a good receiver.
"The time has come to get deeply into Football. It is the only thing we have left that ain't fixed." - HST
by JerBear50 on Aug 25, 2010 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well played.
If you can't laugh at yourself you must not be very funny.
I remain a pessimistically hopeful Bears fan.
I officially give up trying to make people understand that as the starting Z receiver Hester is essentially in the slot, and not on the line of scrimmage, and not directly across from a bump and run CB…
In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Aug 25, 2010 12:31 PM CDT reply actions
No one wants to listen to you Les
I understand very much so; he’s already doing what most people want him to do. In addition, Aroma probably sees as many plays as Hester does this season. It’s a win-win people!
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
But Les
Tell me how Hester would work out as a slot receiver….
;-)
by Steven Schweickert on Aug 26, 2010 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions
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