Why Mike Martz should not be coaching the Bears next season
by LRT on Dec 22, 2011 1:14 PM CST
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1) The Greatest Show is no longer that Great. Here are some stats from the Rams offense under Martz in 1999 and 2001, the two years he "led" the team to the Super Bowl:
- 1999 – 526 total points; 343 completions on 530 attempts for a 64.7% completion rate; 4,353 passing yards, 42 TDs, 15 interceptions, 33 sacks, a QB rating of 106.6
- 2001 – 503 total points; 379 completions on 551 attempts for a 68.8% completion rate; 4,663 passing yards, 37 TD, 22 interceptions, 40 sacks for a 102.2 QB rating.
Now let’s look at the three top offensive teams so far this season: (Right after the jump, and congrats on the front page bump!)
- Saints – 457 total points; 418 completions on 585 attempts for a 71.5% completion rate; 4639 passing yards, 37 touchdowns, 11 interceptions, 23 sacks for a 109 QB rating.
- Patriots - 437 total points; 351 completions on 530 attempts for a 66.2% completion rate; 4461 passing yards, 35 touchdowns, 11 interceptions, 24 sacks for a 106.7 QB rating.
- Packers - 480 total points; 324 completions on 479 attempts for a 67.6% completion rate; 4173 passing yards, 40 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 37 sacks for a 118.5 QB rating.
What was once special is now commonplace among the best teams in the league. In other words, if "the Greatest Show on Turf" were around today, it would just be another good to great offense. Nothing special.
How exactly is it that possible that Mike Martz keeps getting work based solely on what he did back then? He never replicated his success after 2001, and while he did improve the Lions and Niners offenses, he improved them from terrible to average. In the case of one Lions year, very slightly above average.
He’s done nothing else to prove he has adapted and grown with the league, and if anything has proven that he can’t adapt, yet he still somehow has enough pull for the franchise to dump first round draft picks because he says so? What?
2) Jay Cutler has gotten better in spite of Mike Martz.
Up against the Vikings 23-3 in Week 6, the Bears offense saw a 3rd and 7. The play call left Cutler visibly agitated as you could see him grumbling and clearly unhappy about what would turn out to be a draw play that effectively threw a white flag of surrender and gave up on the drive. And as the huddle broke, Cutler took a few steps to the sideline and let loose the now infamous curse.
"Tell him I said f@*k him."
Is it coincidence that after letting the invective fly, Jay Cutler started playing the best football since his Pro Bowl season in Denver? His best stretch of football as a Bear by far while leading the team on a five-game winning streak and what should have been an easy Wild Card berth in the playoffs? A month after that game, the Bears were considered one of the best teams in the league and one of the few teams that could derail what looked like an unbeatable Packers team.
The Bears offense during that five game winning streak resembled a Mike Martz-called offense while also looking the least like any Mike Martz offense that had been seen before. Cutler started looking more at ease and started looking like the franchise QB Chicago had desperately hoped he would be. Some might argue the Martz offense was finally clicking for him, but I argue that he had tinkered with the Martz offense until it fit him. He was doing things we'd never seen in a Martzfence before, and it was working.
And then the unthinkable, Cutler is injured and goes out for most of the rest of the season. Caleb Hanie, who backed up Jay fairly well in the NFC Championship Game the season before, was pegged to start a stretch of winnable games against three teams from the AFC West and Seattle Seahawks. Sitting at 7-3, the Bears would only need to win two or three more games out of the remaining six to essentially lock up a playoff seed.
3) But then something…unexpected happened.
The Caleb Hanie-led offense came out and was awful. He was so bad that he would eventually be benched for a guy who hadn’t played in the league in years. The offense not only failed to win games, but actively lost games. Hanie threw 9 interceptions to only 3 touchdowns over a 4-game losing streak. Hanie would be out-dueled by Tyler Palko, Tim Tebow and Tarvaris Jackson: three of the worst quarterbacks in the league.
The Bears offense was one of the worst in the league during this stretch. It regressed and looked as awful as it did during the Week 2 and 3 massacres against the Saints and Packers and as bad as it did during the early stretches last season: when Mike Martz clearly had not taken into account whether his personnel would fit his system and was trying to make them fit anyway.
Watching Caleb Hanie struggle has only convinced me that our winning streak was about Jay Cutler molding the Mike Martz offense into his own version rather than Mike Martz molding Jay Cutler and the Bears offensive personnel into his offense. It has only further convinced me of what I have been sure of since the Martz hiring: that the NFL has passed him by. He’s a dinosaur trying to compete with race cars that use old dead dinosaurs like him as fuel to go faster.
Mike Martz was always the wrong choice for offensive coordinator, but as we know all too well, one of Lovie’s major weaknesses is his cronyism. From bringing in washed up former Rams like Adam Archuleta, Orlando Pace, and Brandon Manuateshamua, to dumping Bears great Ron Rivera as defensive coordinator for Bob Babich, Martz is just another in a line of Lovie’s friends that have failed to do a respectable job in Chicago.
Just like with Archuleta, Pace and Manuelephantitsofthebodyuna, Martz’s time in Chicago has come to a close. I understand the argument against dumping him: Jay Cutler would be learning yet another offensive system. I don’t care. We need an offensive coordinator who works with the talent he has to make an effective offense, not a coordinator who is so stubborn and set in his ways that he is determined to make the talent fit into his own offense, even if it means trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
It’s time for Martz to leave Chicago.
This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.
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Martz definitely has moments where he outsmarts himself
Or forgets who he has to work with. But I was happy with the balance that Cutler and Martz seemed to work out midseason. Things were going well. I don’t see the benefit in making the offense learn yet another system – there’s bound to be regression in that case.
I'm okay with that, if it happens
As we’ve seen with Cutler out, the entire offense has regressed. So the question is: was Hanie’s bad play the cause of the regression, or was it Cutler’s absence? Cutler, who had made this offense his own and was doing things – successfully – that you just know was driving Martz crazy.
And anyway, as we saw last year and this year, a little early season stumbles don’t matter if the team gets it together by Weeks 4-6 to go on a run.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Not sure about the whole offense regressing this year.
The Bears’ whole offense was pretty much Cutler and Forte. More like the whole offense just jumped over to the injury list, leaving less-talented and less-experienced people to come in and try to fill the hole. Hanie and Barber just weren’t up to it.
I thought Hanie would play better and he should have beat Denver
but it seems like Hanie is still raw. I think Cutler molded Martz and made it work for him. Martz should stick around for another year. There is no one else to replace him as OC.
Were you watching
The same Chicago Bears as I was?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
by LRT on Jan 3, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
If a veteran qb can’t come in to play because the system is too complex…then the system is the problem
Superman wears an Urlacher Jersey under his costume
by BearNecessities on Dec 22, 2011 11:42 AM CST reply actions
Precisely
I was going to edit my post to add a 4th option about this, but figured someone else would point it out.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
this is funny because a veteran QB is coming in and starting the next game
It’s just not a over the hill WCO QB that has been throwing everything into the dirt for the past two years.
McCown knows the termanology when a play gets called in he won’t have to look at a cheat sheet taped to his wrist like that over the hill guy was doing in Minny.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
Ahh
So a guy who couldn’t even climb the hill is better than one who is over the hill.
Gotcha.
You know who else knew the terminology when a play gets called in? Todd Collins.
How’d that work out?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
so "Todd Collins" is your trump card?
you got nothing else so you throw in the “Todd Collins trump card” and declare “winning”!
If McNabb had anything left he would have shown it in Washington or Minnesota. He’s done and doesn’t know the terminology.
McCown will at least know what the play is when it comes in from the sidelines. At least he will call the running play the way the other 10 guys in the huddle expect to hear it. Other than that I don’t expect much.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
All I'm saying
is knowing the terminology means nothing if you’re not a very good football player.
I’ve said elsewhere in this thread that I was against the idea of bringing McNabb in, but in hindsight I sure would have liked to see what he could do.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Todd Collins never played under Martz.
Josh McCown on the other hand, has played under Martz.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 27, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
This is the main problem
nice work juicebox
Hoping that Peppers does the belt dance over Rodgers crumpled on the turf
My choices, in order...
1. Norv Turner. Yes, he “led” the stacked Chargers to 1st round exit after 1st round exit. And, yes, he’s the brother of Dumb Ron. But he makes good offenses in the classic Chicago style. Running, short passing, and taking a shot when appropriate. His Cowboys teams from the 90s were great offenses, and he’s generally improved the offenses of the teams that he’s been OC for at least a year or two. Somebody will hire him as their Head Coach somewhere. But, if not, I’d be fine with him here.
2. Todd Haley. He’s been here before. As a WR coach from 01-03. And he made Marty Booker a 100 receptions a year kind of player, whom we turned into Wale, the second best DE that we’ve had over the last 10 years. His offenses have generally been successful when he was in an Assistant Coaching job. That Arizona 2008 team was a wonder to behold. And his 3 years with the Cowboys turned Tony Romo from a scrub into something resembling a star. He’s obviously a passing game expert, but he did some pretty interesting things with subpar Tim Hightower and aging Edgerrin James.
3. Mike Tice. The fallback option. Basically, have Tice steal Martz’s playbook out from under his pillow, and then run the Martzfense Tice’s way. Or the way it was run during that impressive 5 game winning streak. This is the option that I think the Bears will end up taking. I’d prefer the other two, as Tice has never before attempted to coordinate an offense on his own. But he’s not a bad option by any means.
I'm OK with #1 and #3...
but Todd Haley is known league wide as a complete tool. He’d be fighting with everyone and his ego gets the better of him far too often. He’s one of the few people that might get Lovie to show an emotion, but not in a good way. Turner would be a good fit, his system is similar enough to make the least rocky transition. Tice does not impress me as the best option, maybe he’s #5 or #6 on a list that includes a few other unnamed coaches. I get the feeling Martz returns next season…and that’s not a good thing!
There's a fine line between stupid...and clever!
Unfortunately, I only know the big names...
Whatever ego problems he’s got, he’s a talented offensive coach. Marty Booker was never the same after he left Chicago. Even with the same personnel, Arizona wasn’t the same team after he left them. Dallas (Romo especially) is a leaguewide joke, mostly cuz of their owner.
And the basic reason I like Tice is because of continuity and what I perceive to be levelheadedness. I think he could take the Martz playbook and make it work for the Bears offensive skillset. He couldn’t possibly do much worse than what Martz’s done with the thing these last couple years…
Why not Mike Shanahan?
Considering the #1 on your list is still a HC in the NFL?
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
Because
Norv likely will not be the HC of the Chargers anymore, barring an unexpected slide into the playoffs and deep showing.
While I’d love him as OC, I think another team takes a flyer on him as HC.
Shanahan, on the other hand, likely has at least one more season of failure in Washington before he is dismissed. And I doubt he’ll ever take a position lower than HC. His son Kyle, on the other hand…
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Norv really isn't that great of a coach.
He inherited a GREAT team from M Schottenheimer. Yet with so many high talented players:
Rivers, Tomlinson, Gates, VJackson, Sproles, Q.Jammer, T. Spikes, M.Floyd, A.Cromartie, M.Turner, S.Merriman, E.Weddle, K.Dielman
He constantly loses games early in the season and his teams fail to play with 100% effort in critical games.
Not sure I’d want him with Lovie. He had arguably the best RB’s for years with Tomlinson, Sproles, and Turner yet couldn’t figure a way to win games with clock management after running up the score.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
I think they were talking OC not HC
and as an OC he has one of the best resumes in the NFL.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
Yep
Norv may be a less than stellar, underachieving HC, but his credentials as OC are top notch.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Partly b/c he's Lucifer Shanahan.
There has never been one single coach that more directly stunts his RBs growth and abilities than Mike Shanahan. While he does generally take RB3s and turn them into RB2s, he’s also well known for turning RB1s into RB2s as well. Matt Forte is one of the 5-7 best RBs in the NFL today, and I think that Shanny would turn a blind eye to that.
Also, even if Shanny is fired, he’ll latch on somewhere else as a HC. That’s almost a 100% guarantee. He’s had too much success at the HC level to NOT get another try there, at a career 160-113-0 record including playoffs.
At least with Norv Turner, there’s a reasonable chance that nobody else will try him out again with a 110-116-1 record including playoffs. He’s likely out at the end of this year after taking yet ANOTHER incredibly talented Chargers team to a playoff miss. He’s good with offense, just not with overall gameplanning.
I’m not trying to replace Lovie Smith. I think Lovie Smith is a pretty good coach. He’s not great. He’s good. He’s probably in the top 10 of all the NFL HCs that started this season. He’s got the ear of his team. I’m fine with him sticking around.
I’m trying to replace Mike Martz and Daryl Drake. Those two (Drake especially) have severely retarded this team’s growth potential, and I want them both gone.
Drake
Gods, yes!
He’s been with the Bears since 2004 and the best his receiving squad has ever placed is 14th or so (don’t remember exactly at this time) during the SB year.
How this bozo still has a job with the Bears is mind-blowing, especially considering how terrible/inconsistent the receivers have been.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
This is the second time I saw someone bash Shanny in terms of his RB treatment.
What exactly is it he does that you don’t like?
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 23, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
The constant shuffling of RB roles, for the most part.
Look, in Washington, he’s got one RB that is clearly better than the other two. Yet he stubbornly rotates them in odd and unpredictable ways, and none of them produce because of it.
He did the same thing in Denver after Elway left. One of his RBs consistently posts better stats than the others, yet he consistently starts others or plays others in larger roles that they clearly are not suited for.
Matt Forte is a workhorse RB. The kind of guy that can put up 250+ touches every season and turn them into something special. But he needs his 15+ touches a game to get going effectively, as has been shown in the last couple of years.
My fear with Shanny is that he wouldn’t give Forte those 15+ touches weekly necessary for him to reel off his 3-5 scampers a game.
Shanahan had
Terrel Davis go over 1,000 4 straight years, followed by 1,000 yard seasons from Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson… he also had 1,000 seasons from Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, and Tatum Bell…
After Elway left Denver he had a 1,000 yard back 7 of 10 years.
If he has a guy that demands touches, he’ll get him the touches.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 23, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
Yep
I was trying to think of a coach who had more success with running backs and the running game than Shanahan.
Truth
I think its kinda funny that they’re bashing Shanahan for the one thing he’s really really good at.
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
by badsamaritan on Dec 25, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wrecked.
Simply stated, if you want a solid running game, give it 3 years and Shanny will make it happen.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 27, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
The system, is the problem, hence he was out of the NFL for awhile, the reality of his work place changed a lot in the past 5 years, Martz has not adapted. He ignores the TE all together, and hurt the team with schemes that took to long to develop, with a young OL and obviously not in the upper echelon, and no proven WR at any of the three positions. No BoyRoy discussion here.
by transylvanian bear on Dec 22, 2011 11:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Don't replace him
Unless you have a plan to put someone better back there. I’m kinda ambivalent on this one. I like the fact that he is willing to take risks after watching years of exhausted turtle offense, but of course there’s always the dark side to risk taking. Would tice be good? As others have pointed out, he probably will leave the lineman, especially the tackles, less exposed.
by Sound_Automatic on Dec 22, 2011 2:11 PM CST reply actions
oh, and not leave tight ends on islands
like lester pointed out
by Sound_Automatic on Dec 22, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
you're a moron if you think cutler hasn't benefitted from mike martz
Please find Jay Cutler some help...
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on
What aspect of Cutler’s play is better because of Martz?
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
Cutler has learned how to get thrown to the ground by opposing D-Line.
How to waste TO’s due to incompetence about getting plays down to huddle on time.
How to scramble for his life.
How to swear at coaches for idiocy.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree
If anything, Cutler has become less of a scrambler because Martz’s offense demands the QB stay in the pocket like a statue, waiting for the route to develop.
He only has 55 rushing yards this season, compared to 232 last season, 173 his first season with the Bears and about 200 each for his last two seasons with the Broncos.
He had become better at avoiding pressure in the pocket, but as David suggests below, how much of that is self-preservation?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Cutler is no better of a player right now than he was when we traded for him.
The only difference is that now he’s got a mean streak and can lash out at Martz for stupidity.
I disagree with this
the guy from day 1 has played with a porous Oline and below average wr and has helped them to an 11-5 record last year and 7-3 thos year before injury. He was finally starting to get it.
Hoping that Peppers does the belt dance over Rodgers crumpled on the turf
Strike that. Reverse it.
I think Martz has benefited from Cutler. It takes a gifted QB to do what Cutler does with the personal he has around him, with the exception of Pay the Man. Cutler makes people around him better. Martz is arrogant and bull-headed and refuses to adapt to the situation.
And you spelled benefited wrong. *snicker
Oh, I'm sure he has in ways
But I’m not arguing whether he has benefited. His footwork has gotten better, and he’s more patient in the pocket. The beating he’s taken has given him a bit of a war-veteran mentality where he’s not worrying about the pressure that will undoubtedly get through the line. So yeah, he’s benefited.
You can benefit from something and still not get better. If I got lung cancer, I could benefit from chemo treatments… but I’m still probably going to die of cancer though.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
At least he's not Ron Turner
Which is not that much of an accomplishment, but more of a reminder on how well the offensive side has been taken care of in the past years.
The important thing here is to bring a coach that helps the team improve from Martz and where the offense currently stands. It’s not like Martz has been a total failure, plus a few of the shortcomings are on the front office, not on Martz being his usual jackass.
Playcalling by Ron Turner would have us going to the playoffs right now
He guided a rookie Orton in ‘05 and Grossman to a SB. He’s not a great OC but at least his system was adaptable.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
Adaptability
That’s the key.
Getting Martz to adapt is either like pulling a rhino’s teeth, or he’s just terrible at it, because it took him almost 20 months to start adapting or to get it.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Doug Buffone often says, "Adapt or die" when he talks about Martz and the offense post Cutler's injury
That’s a great point, it seems he’s too stubborn to adapt to the personnel he now has.
by walterfan34 on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
how do you adapt to the pile of dung he has to work with?
One of the worse o-lines in the game, the worst receivers in the game, a backup running back and one of the worst backup QB’s the world has ever seen play football. Seriously, how would you adapt to this?
His system might have been
but his playcalling was awful in his last season, although he’s arguably been the victim of the same front office errors. I wonder if there’s any point on discussing the quality of the OCs since they’re constantly being screwed by JA.
Nah, Turner sucked.
But at least he knew what plays NOT to run. But the I-Formation-Of-Death still haunts me…
Agreed
But Turner was also screwed by JA. The o-line was arguably worse when Turner was calling the plays. And the receiving corps was also pretty bad.
? > Mike Martz > Ron Turner > Terry Shea
If you’re going to fire Martz, you need to have a better replacement ready to go, or at least 2 or 3 better candidates to be sure that one accepts the job. Giving a laundry list of reasons to let someone go does not mean that the team improve by finding someone better.
Your post did not even mention his possible replacement, therefore it is moot (so hypothetical as to be meaningless).
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 2:56 PM CST reply actions
So do you feel Martz should stay?
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
I think Martz is better than the boogeyman....
….or the invisible man, or nobody, or a hypothetical situation.
I think that Jerry Angelo should be fired, and the Bears should hire a real NFL guru GM. The failure of the Bears this season rests mostly with their offensive line, and a little with their WRs. And those failures of drafting and developing a good OL and WR corps rest directly upon the head of Mr. Angelo.
I think that real NFL guru GM should come from one of the consistent flagship organizations in the NFL, e.g. the Steelers, the Patriots, possibly even the Ravens or Packers – those organizations which have shown the greatest success and consistency in drafting over the past decade.
And I think that GM should then make a decision whether to retain Lovie Smith, or to fire him. And I think if that GM decides to retain Lovie Smith, they together should decide, at that point, whether to retain or fire Mike Martz.
I mean, if we’re going to play a hypothetical “fire him hire him” game here, how much responsibility can we really assign to Martz and Tice, who have been here all of two years, when Angelo has failed year after year to assemble the most important asset of a championship football club – the offensive line?
Did Mike Martz have a good OL and good WRs when Trent Green was injured on the Rams, and Kurt Warner took over? If the Bears had even a top 10 OLine, and top 10 WR corps, would they make the playoffs and be able to bide time while Cutler and Forte possibly return?
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
So is your comment moot (or meaningless)
because you say fire Jerry Angelo yet give no specific name to replace him?
Wait… you did say hire someone from
one of the consistent flagship organizations in the NFL, e.g. the Steelers, the Patriots, possibly even the Ravens or Packers
So who would you prefer from this list of employees of those flagship teams?
Tony Quatrini, Director of Marketing Pittsburgh Steelers
Kelvin Fisher, College Scout Pittsburgh Steelers
Bill Jankowski, Vice President, Information Technology Baltimore Ravens
David Blackburn, Player Personnel Assistant Baltimore Ravens
Harold Nash, Strength and Conditioning New England Patriots
Floyd Reese, Senior Football Advisor New England Patriots
Mark Wagner, Director of Ticket Operations Green Bay Packers
Betsy Mitchell, Vice President of Organizational/Staff Development Green Bay Packers
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
My comment is equally as meaningless as the OP...
…which I believe I alluded to with my comment
I mean, if we’re going to play a hypothetical "fire him hire him" game here
At least I’m willing to admit it. :-)
But no, I wouldn’t start plucking folks from the marketing departments, IT, nor strength and conditioning to fill the GM position.
That’s a sweet list of strawmen and straw-women you have there, though, Lester.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Here are some real ideas
Eric DeCosta – Baltimore Ravens – Director of Player Personnel
Ron Hughes – Pittsburgh Steelers – College Scouting Coordinator
Doug Whaley – Buffalo Bills – Asst GM and Director of Player Personnel (not sure about that porn email thing, though)
Nick Caserio – NE Patriots – Director of Player Personnel (probably unavailable, but why not try)
David Gettleman – NY Giants – Director of Pro Personnel
Tom Telesco – Indianapolis Colts – Director of Player Personnel
Floyd Reese – NE Patriots – Senior Football Advisor
Nobody in Green Bay tickles my fancy. Hardly an exhaustive list, just thrown together with negligable research.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
Good list
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
Sweet, the Ravens IT manager is on the list
Guess this gives me hope that I have a future in the NFL. Cant say the draft will go well under my reign but goddamnit the computer network at Halas hall will really kick ass!!!!!
White Sox fans need not apply.
by Bears-Cubs Bulls on Dec 22, 2011 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
He might be good at sabremetrics or something...
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
by badsamaritan on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
Meh
When I realized I was at 1000 words already I decided to stop.
And I figured the comments would be the place to discuss replacements. Sure enough, it has been!
As for Martz > Ron Turner…
If you’re talking about who was the better Bears coordinator, I don’t think it’s a question. It was Turner, based on what he accomplished vs. what Martz has accomplished. Martz has the most talented QB in Bears history at his disposal and last year the Bears were ranked as the third worst offense in football (22nd in rushing and 28th in passing).
Ron Turner’s offenses set franchise records for completion percentage, passing yards per game, and was the only Bears team to ever have a 1,000 yard rusher and two 1,000 yard receivers. He did this with Erik Kramer, Rashaan Salaam, Curtis Conway and Jeff Graham.
Can you imagine Martz’s offense accomplishing this with it’s current roster?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Have you forgotten that Ron Turner was the OC from 2005-2009?
Are you seriously arguing that the Bears offense in 2009 was better than 2010 or 2011?
I specifically limited my comparison to OCs under Lovie Smith.
If you think that Ron Turner 2.0 was better than Martz, you’re certifiably crazy. Comparing 1995 to 2010 is an exercise in mental masturbation.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
The Bears
are ranked 24th in the league right now.
Last season they were ranked 30th
In 2009 under Turner they were ranked 23rd.
So technically from a statistical standpoint, yeah, Turner was better.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Ron Turner is available
He’s the WR coach of the Colts right now.
You think he was better than Martz? Ron Turner was dog$h!t.
With all due respect, your opinion no longer holds any relevance to me. Enjoy your post.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Heh
What, can’t handle being proven wrong, even if it’s from a statistical basis?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
You and your logical ideas
and statistics have no place here sir…take them to a yahoo comment section where the logical people discuss these things
WCG's Resident Nickelback and Boy Band fan
Also rated Worst WCG Blogger by Dr. Steven Schweickert's extensive "Total BR" (Blogger Rating)
"Oh Dilfer, give me the strength...
to be as bad a WCG Contributor as you are an announcer/authority on anything. Peace be with you. " (JoetheBoss)
by ThorCo on Dec 22, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You forget you are arguing on the internet sir.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
Look Below and it's Fixed!
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
Heh yourself
My opinion of Ron Turner was not determined by overall offensive ranking from NFL.com. It was formed from watching the performance of the team and his play-calling as a Bears season ticket holder for 17 years (1985-2001) and as a Bears fan since 1975, from watching my alma mater University of Illinois throughout the Ron Turner era, as well as hearing first- and second-hand stories of him from my brother who has been a sports photojournalist in the Midwest for several decades.
In the same vein, my opinion of Mike Martz is not formed by a single number (30th, or 24th), but from watching the vast majority of Bears plays over the past 30 years, as well as the performance of other teams in the NFL, including the Detroit Lions and St Louis Rams (though I admit that I remain blissfully ignorant of of Martz’s playcalling and general performance in San Francisco, as I still can’t think of any good reason to watch that team.)
However, I’m more than happy to engage you in debate on a ‘statistical basis’ – in which case, the least you could do is tighten up your stats a little bit. For example, you state that “The Bears are ranked 24th in the league right now.”
First off, I find that just a tad bit disingenuous, as we both know full well that the Bears have been playing without Cutler for the last 4 games, and without Matt Forte for the last 3.5 games. Secondly, the statistic you cite is for total offensive yardage. They’re currently ranked #16 in points per game. I’m sure you know that the team with the most points wins the game, not the team with the most yards.
2011 Bears: 22.5 pts/game (#16)
2010 Bears: 20.9 pts/game (#21)
2009 Bears: 20.4 pts/game (#19)
So, you can see that the Martzfense has outperformed the Turnfense where it matters most – the scoreboard. Futhermore, Ron Turner was fortunate enough to have Jay Cutler start all 16 games in 2009, whereas Martz had him available only 15 games in 2010 and 10 this season. (One might argue that it was Martz’s playcalling that led to the NY debacle last season, and therefore to Cutler missing the Carolina game, but this season that isn’t the case.)
With Jay Cutler starting:
2011: 26.8 pts/game
2010: 20.7 pts/game (not including playoffs: 35 v Seattle, and 14 v GB)
2009: 20.4 pts/game
Oh, but wait, you say – what about the effect of scoring by the defense and special teams? Okay, let’s look at the number of offensive TDs and FGs in Jay Cutler’s starts in these seasons (I included 1XP per TD, I didn’t want to cross-check Xps nor 2pts):
2011: 9 rush, 13 rec, 21 FG (10 games) = 21.7 off pts/game
2010: 8 rush, 23 rec, 22 FG (15 games) = 18.9 off pts/game
2009: 6 rush, 27 rec, 24 FG (16 games) = 18.9 off pts/game
So we see that while everyone claims that Mike Martz is pass-happy, he’s actually brought a much better balance to the offense than his predecessor, the formidable Ron Turner. And let’s not forget that with those 27 TDs under Turner came almost as many INTs. Whether Ron Turner would have fared better with Todd Collins (Carolina 2010) or Caleb Hanie and Josh McCown is beyond the interest of this author to analyze.
What, can’t handle being proven wrong, even if it’s from a statistical basis?
Come again? In exactly WHAT way did you prove me wrong?
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The way I said
What’s the matter, I thought my opinion was irrelevant?
How much time did you just spend trying to argue against an irrelevant opinion?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Now you've shown your true colors
How long have you known that your opinion is irrelevant?
Your arrogance is even more unbecoming that your poor use of statistics.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
... Um...
Quote from you, SLO.
With all due respect, your opinion no longer holds any relevance to me. Enjoy your post.
With that said, back to the sidelines for me. (gets popcorn)
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
If a people-avoiding gaming hermit is on Twitter, I should be too. Follow me!
by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
My Dear Steven
I’ve known the OP’s opinion was irrelevant long before he stated that Ron Turner was a better OC than Mike Martz. I believe that I came to this conclusion when he wrote that the performance of “the three top offensive teams so far this season….is now commonplace among the best teams in the league”.
I was only curious how long the OP had understood that his opinion was irrelevant. Ummmm….enjoy that popcorn.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
Reading Comprehension
Fail
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Snicker.
Ummm….enjoy that popcorn.
Oh I will.
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
If a people-avoiding gaming hermit is on Twitter, I should be too. Follow me!
by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
Popcorn is my favorite snack
Here’s a tip… Pop the popcorn old school in a pot. Add melted butter, garlic salt, and Old Bay seasoning. Money.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 9:10 PM CST up reply actions
Oh lord...
MUST. TRY.
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
If a people-avoiding gaming hermit is on Twitter, I should be too. Follow me!
by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe this time the link will work
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
This needs to be used more often.
XKCD is awesome.
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
If a people-avoiding gaming hermit is on Twitter, I should be too. Follow me!
by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 8:53 PM CST up reply actions
+1
Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan
Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, Phoenix Coyotes, Arizona Rattlers fan
[I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
Leading the NFL in swagtangibles
Arrogance?
You are the one who entered into this conversation calling my post “moot” because it was “so hypothetical as to be meaningless.”
I sense a venomous pompousness dripping from your posts and I really see how reason.
I’m sorry, dude, that I hurt your posterior and now you’re all butt hurt.
Now kindly do as you said and continue to ignore this topic.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
I wrote that your post was 'moot', not 'wrong'
Although I did write that you are ‘certifiably crazy’ if you think that Ron Turner 2.0 was better that Mike Martz, and I stand by my statement.
I freely admitted that my opinion of Ron Turner was formed by subjective personal opinion as well as objective statistics.
Your opinion of Mike Martz seems to be based completely on the former, with no evidence of the latter.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
Wait
So my post was correct, just pointless?
Does that make our conversation doubly pointless?
Anyway, to continue the pointlessness:
That Ron Turner has had more success than Martz with the Bears is beyond question. It’s not in doubt at this point in time. It’s a matter of fact.
“Better” has nothing to do with it, as that is purely subjective.
My opinion of Martz is based on both opinion and facts. I’m no fan of his, true; but I also stand by my position that Cutler has played well despite Martz.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
I liked the post
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't dislike it...
….I only thought it was filled with subjective opinions of Mike Martz, with no real alternatives.
Mike Martz was always the wrong choice for offensive coordinator…Martz is just another in a line of Lovie’s friends that have failed to do a respectable job in Chicago.
We didn’t know that he was always the wrong choice any more than we know that he hasn’t done a respectable job.
So we fire him, then what?
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
The title of the post
is “Why Mike Martz should not be coaching the Bears next season.”
It’s not, “Who should be coaching the Bears next season instead of Mike Martz.”
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
By all accounts, you are missing completely on the balance, that came from Lovie, Martz " balanced " the offense after Jay went public and he was talked to by the head coach.
by transylvanian bear on Dec 23, 2011 6:21 AM CST up reply actions
any proof it went down that way?
other than cutty making some vague public statements that the media and fans chose to interpreted as a scathing indictment. Where is the proof it went down that way?
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
Just a hunch, like anything here. BTW do you have proof of anything else? I’m open to suggestions. Oh , and speculation. :-D
by transylvanian bear on Dec 23, 2011 6:43 AM CST up reply actions
I got a few facts and a lot of blank space inbetween the facts just like you.
but, doesn’t it seem odd that everyone seems to be so willing to just accept speculation as gospel?
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
This is skewed with the Forte / Cutler injuries
what were they through 10 games??
Hoping that Peppers does the belt dance over Rodgers crumpled on the turf
So is comparing the GSoT to what Martz has built today.
Aside from being almost as many years ago as Turner’s salad days, Martz’s system required five current or future Hall of Famers (Warner, Holt, Bruce, Faulk, Pace) to work well enough to win a Super Bowl as OC and lose one as head coach. Turner got to a Super Bowl with a lot less in 2005.
Martz is overrated by fans who don’t mind their QB’s becoming punch drunk IR cases.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll assume that 2005 was a typo (it was the 2006 season and the 2007 SB)
But Ron Turner didn’t get there with a lot less. He got there on the back of a freaking fantastic defense and an uninjured Devin Hester, with a solid Oline (much better than this season, I would argue), a RB platoon that was in the ballpark (Jones and Benson v Forte and Barber), and WRs as good or better (Berrian & Muhammed v Roy Williams and Bennett/Knox/Hester).
And if Ron Turner (and Lovie Smith and Jerry Angelo) were smart enough to start Kyle Orton that season, the Bears may have won the whole thing.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
A lot less than the 1999 Rams, yes - but they won it all
Not a lot less than the Bears last year nor this year before Cutler’s injury, was my point.
by Sweetness Lives On on Dec 22, 2011 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
With Forte instead of Jones, they probably win that Super Bowl.
Jones was good, but he was no Forte.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Dec 24, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Norv Turner, Haley, Tice.
There are probably a couple other candidates out there as position coaches right now, but those are the guys I’m looking at the most.
Thanks
For the front page bump! W00T!!
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
This was a very well written article
In saying that, I will only favor a removal of Martz ONLY if we can hire someone who knows a system very close to Martz’s philosophy. Even Jay Cutler made a public statement saying he does not want to learn yet another system in just his 4th year in Chicago. Another year in another system can ruin Jay Cutler as well as this offense. Whether it was Martz being a good OC or Jay Cutler being a better QB, when Cutler was healthy and got comfy with this system, it worked rather well, averaging over 30 points a game to be exact.
And do you really feel it’s just about Jay Cutler? No, at least if Matt Forte has a say in this matter. We have 2 of the 4 primary components set for Martz, now we need Jerry or whomever is the GM next year to bring in a good WR and to stabilize this O-Line. It doesn’t matter who we would bring in to be the OC if we want Martz gone so badly, if we don’t have the talent other than Cutler and Forte on offense, we’ll never see a good offense in Chicago.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 22, 2011 3:07 PM CST reply actions
I agree to an extent
Martz does get unfairly lambasted for every little thing that goes wrong on offense and yes, it’s not his fault that Jerry Angelo has not provided a competent and complete offensive squad.
I’ve personally always been against the Martz hiring and I don’t think a new coordinator will hurt Cutler that much, especially if it’s a similar Coryell-based system.
Norv Turner’s name has been thrown around and will likely continue to be, especially if he’s axed as Chargers HC. There’s also Tom Moore (currently an “offensive consultant” with the Jets, though I don’t think he wants to actually coach anymore).
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
I'm not against looking at options for OC
However, there is one fact you can’t argue against. When Mike Martz has the talent to succeed, he knows how to use said talent, resulting in helping the Rams win the Super Bowl as the master of the Greatest Show on Turf, and later took the Rams to another Super Bowl as the HC.
The Rams knew what Martz needed to succeed. The Bears don’t, at least not fully. Give him a REAL receiving corps and see his offense take off.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 22, 2011 6:36 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
That requires
VERY specific receivers.
You HAVE to HAVE (Cue 12 days of X-Mas music):
Three great route runners,
two speed demons,
And a big target who can catch anything ever passed.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
We have plenty of speed
Get a big target in FA and then hire a competent receivers coach, the other two issues should take care of themselves.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 22, 2011 8:35 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Even more important is a line that can protect long enough
for 5-7 step drops. It doesn’t matter who the QB or WR’s are if that is not in place. While Martz’s as OC in St. Louis for those couple of years was successful, I really don’t see any great amount of success anywhere since. As someone has already pointed out, even the time with San Fran and Detroit showed some improvement in those offenses, it was relative because of how bad they were when he got there. Neither of those teams were great offenses and he didn’t last in either place so this “genius” label, to me is questionable.
Bottom line is if his system is so great, how come others haven’t copied it (i.e. Walsh’s West Coast offense) and very few players can thrive in it and it takes forever for anyone to really understand it? By definition, isn’t a system that is too complicated for professionals to comprehend easily and no one else wants to employ, a bad system?
There are other teams that run offenses similar to Martz's
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 22, 2011 10:12 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Similar, maybe, but what other system prevents the team from bringing players in
unless they were with this specific coach.
Norv Turner is extremely system oriented himself
He’ll only look at players that fit his system on offense, as bad if not worse than Martz.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 23, 2011 12:59 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't remember ever hearing that come up like we do with Martz but I don't know enough about it
to say you’re wrong. Along those lines, though, it’s not like San Diego has done anything great with him there and a boatload of talent, plus he didn’t light it up at Washington either.
It makes you wonder if, like Martz, he had the “perfect storm” when he was in Dallas but without those specific athletes and circumstances, he hasn’t been able to reproduce it either. I think that “genius” label is thrown around too often base on a singular set of circumstances.
Where Martz only pays attention to receivers with speed and good route running
Receivers in Norv’s scheme must be both large AND fast. You have any idea how hard that is to find?
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 23, 2011 3:26 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
he had as much success in two years as the Bears in 40 years if your yard stick is SB appearences.
a lot of OC’s run a very similar offense, it has been around since Sid Gillman in the 50’s, Martz just preferrs a certain set of plays from that family of plays. there are many plays that are the same in the WCO which is tailored for smart but weak armed QB’s to chip away at you with a short passing game.
It’s the terminology, if you work in an office with all English speakers you don’t usually bring in a guy that only speaks French.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
by ed_brown on Dec 22, 2011 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The one thing that I like the most, is, Cutler’s development, that i think Martz helped tremendously with. Otherwise, the system needs updating, cuz we can’t block for it, and or have the right WR.
by transylvanian bear on Dec 23, 2011 6:49 AM CST up reply actions
I like Forte's development the most under Martz.
He’s really brought out the game breaking big play aspect far better than Turner ever did.
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
by badsamaritan on Dec 25, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
This was a pretty solid write up
I agree that Martz’ stubborness and inflexibility has been very frustrating at times. And if they do bring him back, I’m under the impression that he’ll be on a short leash. But I would also like to see a change. If Norv Turner is available, I’d love to see us make a play for him. Of course, we could bring in the best OC in the world, but if we don’t get a #1 WR and we don’t get an NFL-caliber, starting LT, it won’t help much.
Yes damnit
You really want the offense to have to learn a completely new system? When an OC leaves, he doesn’t leave his playbook. So al lof you guys saying “Well Tice can run it with Martz’s playbook” SORRY, it doesn’t work like that. Tice could use the “gist” of Martz’s style, but he could NOT use Martz’s actual playbook. Every OC in the NFL has a different offense, whether they are the same “system” or not. They are still a different playbook, different terminology, and different minute details. It would take the offense another two years to adapt to another OC’s style of play. Letting Martz walk would set the Bears back another 2 years which would mean another 2 years added onto Lach, Pep, Briggs, Tillman, Garza, and our other good veteran players.
Martz needs to stay if you want to see the Bears do ANYTHING worth while next year, or the year after.
Period.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
You fail to take into account
That the Bears reached the NFC Championship Game in Martz’s first year.
Shouldn’t that have taken at least two years to accomplish under your theory?
What about the Niners? New OC this year and they’re fighting for #2 seed in the NFC.
If we have the personnel in place, including a true franchise QB, he and they shouldn’t be shackled by a new coordinator. Not with an entire off-season to learn a new offense.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Look at the offense last year and tell me
that the offense in Martz’s SECOND YEAR was not better until Cutty went down.
Martz has worked wonders with an offense full of misfits. Cutty and Forte are the only REAL talent the Bears have.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
And I'll continue to argue
That it’s been Cutler who has worked wonders with this offense full of misfits.
If Martz were the miracle worker, we would have been able to put up more than 3 points against the Chiefs and 10 points against the Broncos. If Martz were such a great offensive coordinator, our offense full of misfits should have been able to win one of the easily winnable games we’ve played without Cutler.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
This brings to mind another comment from a few days ago.
Imfsilva:
Look, I can find the best architect in the world. but if I ask them to build a house, and give them a plastic shovel and a tiny bucket with some sand, do you really think he will do anything?
Given some straw (Cutler, Forte, Hester)
You can make an adobe brick mansion with mud.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
So...
Given some straw (Cutler, Forte, Hester)
Does that make this a…
(puts on sunglasses)
… Strawman argument?
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
If a people-avoiding gaming hermit is on Twitter, I should be too. Follow me!
by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah you're grasping for straws here bruh
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
by suckmyditka on Dec 23, 2011 12:22 AM CST up reply actions
Ummm theres one person that disagrees with you other than me .....
….. Jay Cutler . Sorry but our franchise QB deserves the OC he wants .
" Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. " ~
Mike Tyson
by MidWayMonster54 on Dec 22, 2011 4:21 PM CST reply actions
and he's stated over and over
he doesn’t want to learn a new system
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
And we can take what guys say in press conferences
as absolute truths?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Yes
Because he played a role in Martz’s hiring to begin with
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 22, 2011 6:37 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Yup for the same reasons we need an O-line & a top flight WR ......
…… our franchise QB needs it to be successful . Another system means a new learning curve , slow starts & the same growing pains you’ll go through by starting a new offensive system . That said if , and its a big if , Norv Turner becomes available & Jay would sign off on it I’d be just fine with Norv ….. That man knows how to run an offense and play to his teams strengths .
" Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. " ~
Mike Tyson
by MidWayMonster54 on Dec 22, 2011 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
He said it on Waddle and Silvy.
Martz needs to stay. Without Jay’s injury, we’re sitting at 10-3 and nobody is talking about firing Martz as we’re preparing for the playoffs. Keep the system.
by PolishSausage.Ditka.Bears. on Dec 22, 2011 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
Cutler dosen't lose any of those 4 games
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
this
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
by suckmyditka on Dec 23, 2011 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
Where's John Wayne when you need him?
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 22, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
John Wayne
the movie hero and real life WWII draft dodger? that John Wayne
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
You always bring a unique perspective to these boards...
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 23, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
I would settle for John Wayne the secret franchise QB
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Dec 23, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
That Ron Turner is even being discussed here is comical.
…why not fire Lovie and hire NORV Turner.
Stats have their place but if stats told the whole story then folks like LRT would be successful head coaches in the NFL Truth is that decisions based on stats alone in the NFL have an alarming way of going wrong. Don’t get me wrong, stats are cool but they don’t hold any more weight than educated opinion.
"Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f**k the prom queen."
So you dispute the fact
That Turner had more success as offensive coordinator with the Bears than Martz has?
Other than that… I disagree with your statement. Even the most educated opinion can be wrong. Stats are never wrong, unless it’s human error compiling said stats.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Stats are what they are.
It’s the interpretation and conclusions drawn that there are issues with.
Weekend contributor and official editorial lackey/waitstaff at Windy City Gridiron
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by Steven Schweickert on Dec 22, 2011 8:58 PM CST up reply actions
Very true
My conclusion is that Turner has had more success than Martz.
Now, do I believe Martz could end up having more success? Absolutely. I firmly believe that next year – regardless of who is calling plays, if Angelo makes even the most basic of rosters moves he needs to make (and barring another season of catastrophic injuries) – anything less than the Super Bowl will be a disappointment.
Do I believe Martz is a better coordinator than Turner? Yeah, the guy was a bum. But better than Turner does not necessarily equal good, let alone better than good.
And of course, Martz has a pretty decent advantage in Jay Cutler – who can easily go down as the best Bears QB of the last 60 years. And Matt Forte – who can easily go down as the 2nd all-time best Bears running back if he plays in Chicago three more seasons.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Turner had 1 real good offensive year.
and a handful of average ones… The Martz O was gaining steam before Cutler was injured.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 22, 2011 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
I'd argue
That Cutler and Forte both deserve more credit for what the offense was doing than Martz. Unless Martz finally recognized that Cutler’s style doesn’t suit his offense and adapted it, it was Cutler who said “f@*k it” and just started playing as he saw fit instead of exactly how it’s drawn up in a book.
If Martz and Cutler had been battling over whether Martz could make Cutler fit into his system or if Cutler could make Martz’s system fit him, then Cutler definitely won that battle.
Also, recall Martz’s comments leading up to the Oakland game: He said he was going to call the plays just like Jay was still in the game. And he did. And it was terrible.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
I'd argue
that you are attempting to remove any credit that Martz is due in regards to the success that we were having prior to Cutler’s injury to prove your point. How do you know that Cutler started playing it like he saw fit instead of what was drawn up in a book? You have no way of knowing that. Cutler said he was integrating plays he liked into the game plan, but they are still Mike’s plays. Cutler did not just start playing like he saw fit, that doesn’t make sense. Everybody has to be on the same page.
Why are you going to blame Martz for calling the plays as if Cutler was in the game against the Raiders? That was our highest scoring game without Jay, we just didn’t win. Blaming Martz for Caleb’s QB ineptitude has no merit. Mike didn’t like Caleb from the beginning. Nobody should lose their job because of this collapse. Most teams don’t win when their franchise QB goes down.
by PolishSausage.Ditka.Bears. on Dec 22, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
None of us really knows what went on in the team meetings
Although we don’t have an exact report of what’s been said behind the scenes (other than the now infomous “tell him I said F him>” on video), we have a pretty good idea that there’s definately been some decent on the team, offensively. While it hasn’t been an all-out Martz coupe, there has been disagreement between Cutler, the other offensive coaches and Martz. And some adjustments involving the play-calling have been made.
No, you can’t blame Martz for Hanie’s failures. And if the Bears don’t keep Hanie, I think he may be out of professional football next year. But Martz should be able to try to adapt his system and play-calling so that an inexeperienced QB can come in and run a few simple plays to quickly get the ball out of his hands, settle down and build his confidence – before he starts chucking the ball downfield. IMO, Martz didn’t do that with Hanie, and the result has been absolutely disastrous.
Actually Martz had adapted the playbook a little for Hanie
Noticed quite a few bootlegs called for Hanie, yet Hanie can’t execute.
You can only do so much until you realize your QB just plain sucks.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 24, 2011 4:56 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
It's all about timing and quick decisions
And we now see just how much Cutler was carrying this offense – and compensating for a porous line and second-tier receiving corps. If you were to ask Hanie off the record, I’m sure he’ll say that everything is “just too fast” for him. Martz should have adjusted his playbook a lot.
Adjusted it to what point?
Hanie hasn’t shown the ability to consistently execute any plays, at some point the backup QB has to step up.
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
by badsamaritan on Dec 25, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
the stats tell me that
Turner went 7-9 with Cutty but Martz only managed 18-8 with Cutty man we need Turner back in the worst way!
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
Who has suggested
we need Ron Turner back?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
sorry I must have woke up from a bad dream.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
Turner's 7-9 year
Was also the year we lost Urlacher for the season in the opener against Green Bay. And we were incredibly fortunate last year to have almost no major injuries, with the exception of Hunter Hilenmeyer. I’m not a big Turner fan, but just saying…
Cutler also threw a career high in TDs...but matched it with a career high in ints with 26
Martz has made Cutler into a better player. And Cutler actually respects as well as backs Martz, where he never felt the same with Ron Turner.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 24, 2011 2:24 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
How exactly has Martz made Cutler into a better player?
Are his stats better in Chicago than when he was in Denver?
And if you really think that Cutler respects Marts, then take a close look at this.
Because people never get angry and disagree at some point even if they respect each other.
Cutler may not have have better stats with the Bears, but that’s also due to a better defense keeping him from all those catch-up mode passes, a better running game to lean on and a godawful amount of drops from his receivers. He’s played more like a winner here than at any point.
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
by badsamaritan on Dec 25, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
If that's true
How is it attributable to Martz? Could it be Cutler’s getting more experience in the league and maturing?
I guess I’m looking at the concussions and the fact that Cutler was almost killed due to defenses being able to t-off on him. This is because of Martz’ tendency to get “pass happy” at times, and needing to be reigned in. I don’t see how any of this has made Cutler a better player. As the writer here makes a strong case, I think that Cutler has gotten better despite the play-calling of Martz.
Norv Turner is a CRAPPY Head Coach
But he’s at worst a good Offensive Coordinator.
I don't understand what the disagreements are with LRT's post. He(assuming he) is 100% right.
What part of your QB getting sacked 75 times and concussed in 25 games is exactly confusing everyone? And don’t give me that garbage that it’s only the line and that the 7 step drops are being exaggerated. That’s BS. The fact is that Martz has needed an intervention twice in 2 seasons to stop getting his QB killed because of the type of offense he runs. There’s a reason why you even know the name Kurt Warner and it’s because Trent Green got hurt running this same offense.
Things didn’t get better until Cutler played the Lions on MNF and decided he was done getting embarrassed on national TV and decided to move outside the pocket and improvise. That trend continued from there and what you saw was the QB you saw go to a Pro bowl in Denver. If Martz was as great as some think and worth keeping, then there wouldn’t be the drop off we’re seeing now.
A good OC or even an average one is able to adjust to the hand he’s dealt. Does Martz make some great play calls from time to time? Sure. But his stubbornness is the real reason he’s a has been and couldn’t get a job in the league. Ron Turner wasn’t great. But hell if I didn’t watch his system get us to a SB with Rex Grossman. You mean to tell me that Martz system is so rigid that only bad QBs that know his system are able to run it? While I’m watching guys like Kellen Clemons walk off street and put up numbers? Whatever. Martz gotta go.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
Difficulty
Would have been #4 on my list.
If a decade+ veteran like Donovan McNabb can’t come in and pick up the basics of your offense in a week or two, your offense is needlessly complicated.
Just to be clear, I was against the McNabb hiring when he was originally waived. Mostly because I had faith in Hanie (what a fool I was) but also because I remember reading that he had a really low Wonderlic score, which meant a difficult offense like Martz’s might be too much for him. And that’s ridiculous.
If a rookie whose sole job for more than six months has been learning this playbook and he still isn’t ready to play as Enderle apparently isn’t, then your offense is needlessly complicated.
When your offense causes confusion and regular false starts, when it is known for getting your QBs knocked around and hurt because the plays take so long to develop it’s like open hunting season for defenders (how many years did it take off Marc Bulger’s career? and how many years did it take Warner to recover before he could play like he wasn’t scared for his life?) then your offense is needlessly complicated.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Others have run the system successfully
But as an OC, you’ve got to be able to recognize the relative strengths and weaknesses of your personnel, and be able to adapt your play-calling accordingly. That’s were I have a problem with Martz.
*
Sorry, mr Ed Brown disagrees with you on this one, he needs proof that Martz was talked to. See my post .
by transylvanian bear on Dec 23, 2011 6:56 AM CST up reply actions
+1
If Martz was such a good OC, we would’ve still been competitive after Cutler went down. The fact that we tanked makes it even more obvious that Cutler was carrying the offense.
You can't succeed if you don't have the talent, though
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Dec 24, 2011 2:26 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
jeremy bates
knows denvers system where cutler went to a pro bowl and was his qb coach.. cutler knows the system from his time in denver.. never liked the martz hire and there is a reason 3 teams let him go!
chisocalibearfan
great point, he is an intriguing name to me as well
Anything they can do to keep this guy from learning another system is fine by me. No time to regress, we have to go for it now, especially w/ the ages of the key defensive players.
by walterfan34 on Dec 22, 2011 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
how many teams let Jeremy bates go?
just saying he was QB coach in Denver not the OC his only gig as OC has been with Seattle and he hasn’t been an overwelming success there.
. "Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental."
--Doug Plank
every coach is fired multiple times...
It’s the nature of the beast, not really a valid point to make.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 23, 2011 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Reading the arguments in the comments cracks me up
We could all argue till everyone is out of breath and wants to punch a puppy in the face but it won’t matter one bit, so why get bent outta shape over it?!?
It doesn’t matter one bit what any fan thinks, the Bears organization is going to do whatever it wants to. It’s already obvious they’re prepping the fan base that this season is a write off due to injuries.. That’s been blatant for weeks now. There isn’t going to be any front office changes this year, possibly Martz but really will it matter if he leaves or not? New OC or keep one that won’t adjust to the new NFL/players, wash in my book.
What should really be debated is how this team will rebuild, players are too old and/or will jump ship this year. The coaches know it, the front office knows it, an if fans took a minute to look at it without fan tinted glasses we’d know it too.. The players have been screaming it all year. 2012 team will be a shadow of the team it’s been regardless of draft picks/FA pick ups.
I have my own opinions on what should happen but sharing them is a moot point because speaking them won’t change a thing. I’m trying to be optimistic but the 2010 season was the best you’ll see out of this current group (players and coaches). It’s unfortunate that Cutler’s best years will be wasted like this.. How many good seasons does he honestly have left?
by edenburnz on Dec 23, 2011 12:26 AM CST via mobile reply actions
If they get him protection culters got alot of yrs left.
I think cutler needs to step up more like he has this yr..He needs to tell the coaches what he wants and needs to get them to go to the big show.He needs to lite a fire under the front offices butts to save his.
We all now what the problem is here the owners are cheap and dont care about football we need new owners who want to win.
I have to disagree with you here
Tyler Palko, Tim Tebow and Tarvaris Jackson: three of the worst quarterbacks in the league
Like him or hate him for his polarizing nature, Tebow and his 83 passer rating with 11 TDs and 2 picks is actually pretty respectable.
No doubt his numbers are good
But how inflated are they by playing against prevent defenses meant to give up yards (and eat the clock) in the 4th quarter?
Tebow has yet to put together a complete game, and if you average how well he does in fourth quarters with how terribly he plays the first three, it’s pretty bad.
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Agreed
But Tebow is, at the very least a solid game manager who generally doesn’t beat himself. And at the pace he’s improving, I would look for him to step into that next level in 2012.
Aggressive defenses
Get the better of him. Yesterday proves that defenses have figured him out. Tebow is a flash in the pan, and being a game-manager usually gets a team nowhere. Just ask Mr. Orton.
"I'm sore and I'm pissed off. I'm a baller. I want to feel the leather. I love thumb wars. 6-8 weeks? 6. follow me for healing, Jay Cutler does" - Jaysthumb twitter acct
by propheteer on Dec 25, 2011 4:47 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
He had one bad game
Big deal. He’s still been much better than advertised. If he continues to work and improve like he has this year, he’ll be fine.
He's had a series of bad games
His opponents have generally been of two types – zero offense that allows him to mount fourth quarter drives after 55 minutes of ineptitude, or the type that jump on the Broncos early, force him to throw the ball, and win going away and making it look easy. (See Detroit; New England)
He’s probably the best QB available to run the Wing-T, though.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Jan 2, 2012 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
TBD
He is very different and that gave him an advantage. But it appears defenses are catching up to him. They force him to stay in the pocket and make throws, he stinks. We will see if he can grow as a QB in 2012, but I am going with no.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 2, 2012 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
He's got 6 picks now
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
He actually played like he does in the 1st 3 quarters
Except he played that way the whole game
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
His overthrows
and only save him for so long
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
Tom Clement
Or is it Clements? Regardless, he made Rodgers the stud QB he is today. There were rumors of him taking the Penn State job, but if I were the Bears, I’d inquire about his services. No to another Turner; this offense needs more creativeness than the WCO typically provides.
"I'm sore and I'm pissed off. I'm a baller. I want to feel the leather. I love thumb wars. 6-8 weeks? 6. follow me for healing, Jay Cutler does" - Jaysthumb twitter acct
by propheteer on Dec 25, 2011 4:45 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
I think the Bears were considering him before they hired Martz...
GB wouldn’t allow Chicago to speak with him….
Figure on same outcome again if Bears were to try again…
by David in Maine on Dec 25, 2011 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
Tom Clements ... and he would be a great OC for the Bears
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 26, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Mike Ditka gave him his first NFL coaching job.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
Here's my opinion on Mike Martz.
To your first point, The Greatest Show On Turf doesn’t exist anymore. It won’t exist anymore, to compare two different teams from two decades, with two different histories, two different rosters… It’s really a false comparison to say “HEY LOOK, WE’RE NOT AS GOOD AS A REALLY GOOD TEAM”.
The Bears have generally been neglected offensively for the past 6 years, yes, occasionaly they’d spark some talent, some goodness, but, the way the FO has neglected the offense isn’t related to the Rams in the Late 90’s. Has Martz improved the offense? Eh, it’s yet to be seen. One of the things I’m a big proponent of is: ‘It takes a bit of time to see positive changes from coaching’. Sometimes it’s luck, sometimes it’s skill, most of the time, there’s so many variables that it’s hard to pin down what’s happening and the progression of a unit from the outside.
Has Martz adapted? That’s the million dollar question I think. Has he dumbed down his offense for 2nd String QB’s, worked with Jay Cutler, has Jay Cutler’s public confidence, he called 7 straight run plays, he’s worked with a halfassed offensive line talent, been maligned for ‘7-step drops’ and ‘poor wide receivers’ (How Darryl Drake has a job is beyond me sometimes).
The past isn’t a good indicatator of the Bears as the team is flexible, isn’t set, very liquid in their positions at the moment, and the right combination of pieces might be able to make major gains (see: a WR and a OT, with continued development from the TE’s and Lance Louis) in a short time. I don’t know what your definition of ‘adapt’ is, but in my mind, Martz has adapted pretty well over the course of the season and his tenure as the bears OC.
But, has Cutler actually gotten better? That I disagree with, Cutler hasn’t progressed or regressed as a passer. He’s gotten more comfortable in the system, but other talent regresses… it’s hard to actually quantify progress insofar as what the expectation is of his talent (which is pretty high), and his current level of production was good, but still not ‘elite’ yet (and there’s a whole bag of whatever when discussing that). I think this particular point is as bad as the ‘Cutler isn’t a Winner’ and ‘Cutler quits on his team’ type of thread, even though it’s completely opposite of the narrative in the past.
Now, lets look at the very recent past. Was Hanie awful? Absolutely. Was his performance rather unexcusable? Absolutely (outside of 18 minutes). The entire offense looked awful, but mostly in the execution of individual players, the playcalling wasn’t terrible, it was limited, it tried to do some cute things in order to throw off the defense. But I don’t think you have the knowledge to say that Jay Cutler was molding Martz offense into his own version (To my knowledge, Jay Cutler doesn’t call the plays, and if he did, there’d be no worry of delay of game now, would there?)… I think out of all the points I take as being inane, this is it.
So, my questions for you, LRT:
Was the Bears offense getting better as the season gone by?
Was the Bears offense improving over last year?
Does Jay Cutler run his own offense in secret?
Does Josh McClown’s outing change your opinion on Mike Martz?
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
Well
Yes and Yes. But as I’ve argued, the offense improving was due mostly to Jay Cutler. If you have games on tape, go back and watch some during the winning streak. If you don’t, watch some youtube or nfl.com videos. Watch Cutler in the pocket, watch him drop back and then avoid a defender who gets through the line. Watch him move and how effortless he was making it seem.
Jay Cutler was the reason this offense was improving. The offensive line got better (and by better I mean from abysmal to average) but it was Cutler finally becoming comfortable in the chaos that was the Chicago Bears QB pocket that kept the sack totals from staying through the roof.
How can I attribute any of this to Martz? I can’t, not when Caleb Hanie came into this very same offense and was absolutely horrendous. Not when McCown’s familiarity with the Martzfence is rewarded with 15 passes in the first 3 quarters of the game (and another 15 in the 4th when the game is all but over).
McCown did as good a job as could have been done, but it’s yet another indictment of Martz. If your system is so damned complicated that a decade+ veteran like McNabb can’t come in and learn it, and instead you need to go grab a guy off the street because he read the playbook half a decade ago and is familiar with it, then your playbook is a hindrance.
I stand by my opinion that Cutler took over the Bears offense. Sure, he was receiving calls from Martz, but did he follow through the play as it’s supposed to be followed through? When he’s standing in the pocket, making defenders miss him while guys get open instead of throwing to a spot as you’re supposed to do, doesn’t that sort of seem like he’s doing his own thing in the offense as opposed to following the rules 100% down the line?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
I stand by my opinion that Cutler took over the Bears offense. Sure, he was receiving calls from Martz, but did he follow through the play as it’s supposed to be followed through?
What evidence do you have to assume this?
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 27, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that Cutler took over the offense this year
And told Martz he was full of it.
Check this out.
I think people read into that too much.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 29, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
It is what it is
And Cutler looks really pissed off in that video – before he tells Martz to go f- himself. Do you still think he was just blindly following all of Martz play-calls?
Sure, we don’t have tape of the offensive meetings with Cutler, Tice, Shea and Martz, but it’s a little naive to assume that Martz was running the show with little input from the others. I know Cutler made reference to everyone except Martz in one of his post-game media interviews – and gave the other coaches credit for making adjustments. No, I don’t remember which game it was – but I can probably go back and dig it up.
In any event, I no longer blame Martz for the Hanie debacle. Everyone seems to concur that Martz was against having Hanie as the back-up, so maybe that was on Lovie. I do agree, however that Martz’ system seems to be too complex to quickly adapt to a new QB, when the starter goes down.
And no, standing in the pocket extending plays with his feet doesn't qualify as 'Doing his own thing in the offense'
It’s him being a competent quarterback who can feel pressure.
He’s not going out there, calling his own routes for his WR’s, he’s not setting line protection schemes, he’s there doing one thing, and that’s identifying the coverage…
Cutler, Martz, the Receivers, and the Line all are on the same page. They audible & change the play based on the coverage given… if that’s ‘changing the play’ and ‘doing his own thing’, sure… But it’s fallacious to imply that the calls aren’t being made by Martz and executed by Cutler.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 27, 2011 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
You're right
Martz’s offense calls for the QB to stand in the pocket like a statue, make his reads, then throw the ball to a spot rather than to the open receiver.
Jay Cutler has done exactly that like a good little QB. All of our offensive success stemmed from Mike Martz.
Shame that didn’t carry over when Cutler got injured, though, isn’t it?
In short, in life, as in a foot-ball game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!" Theodore Roosevelt
Thanks for your concession.
But, I’m disagreeing with you because I adamantly believe your analysis of the blame is wrong. You’ve dramatically simplify things and it’s not as black/white/blame/blameless as you’d find.
Ideally, in most schemes, you want the QB to stand in the pocket, step up to the pressure, make their reads, throw the ball. I don’t see how that’s exactly negative, nor exclusively Martz. Have you seen Cutler roll out? Ever? I mean, sure, the system doesn’t design a lot of roll outs, does Martz call them? Sure, from time to time. Does he factor in Scrambling? Sure does.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2945347/2000-Rams-Martz-Offense
Page 30.
Jay Cutler scrambles out, he feels pressure, he moves out of the pocket and makes good decisions, something that Aaron Rodgers also excels at, something that Kyle Orton does not, something that McNabb doesn’t anymore.
Now, to your last point, condescending as they all may be, fails to take into consideration how bad Caleb Hanie was. I will admit, a lot of the success of the club has been in the hands of Jay Cutler and Matt Forte, take both of them out, you become an easier offense to gameplan against. To say that you should be able to go ‘plug and play’ with the offense, you first have to look at the talent, and put blame where it’s necessary (Jerry Angelo, Lovie Smith, Shane Day, Mike Martz, evenly amongst all). I mean, many of us were duped by the train that was Hanie, but, without internal access to how the player plays and practices and his strengths and weaknesses, they should have known better. Or maybe they shouldn’t? Maybe he just went bad Rex with no prior history of being nothing short of competent. Sure, someone has to take the blame, but… Saying it’s all Martz’s fault for the offense sputtering after both CUTLER AND FORTE got injured is really short sighted.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Dec 29, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
I have mixed feelings
So many maybes: Maybe if the receivers fought for the ball, or were open on their routes, maybe the offensive line didn’t suck at pass protection, Maybe if Hanie didn’t suck most of the time, Maybe if everyone around Hanie didn’t suck most of the time, Maybe if Martz called better plays or for better protections. To me it looked like Hanie was trying to run the all the plays how they should be run. McCown/Cutler seem to take off and extend plays on their own. If Hanie had more experience he probably would have done the same. That said I think it has to go on the coaches. Either they didn’t prepare Hanie well enough, get the right protection scheme (how many sacks? an issue for Cutler too), calling for pass and run at the right times. Not having McCown up to speed when Hanie struggled.
Maybe the solution is to give some power to QB, let whoever is taking the snap call an audible if the situation calls for it. Then maybe there aren’t as many plays that are DOA. I know we got rid of Greg Olsen (thought it was a good move) but we do have TE are supposed to catch so lets utilize them more. Last solution (I want to be careful how i say this) leadership. When Cutler went down it didn’t seem like Hanie had control over the situation. McCown maybe a little better. No matter someone else could easily take control. (again outside view)
My other thoughts are if you fire Lovie fire the OC and DC (If not then they best get a ring). Angelo needs to be fired or step down soon regardless of the Bears failure/success. Get Forte his contract, seek a no1 receiver, bring McCown, Enderle, and Hanie back let them duke it out in the preseason, Maybe Roy Williams can cover for Johnny Knox if he can’t come back at least as a WR although if you can get someone else do it. Get rid of Webb and Omiyale and really solidify the line.
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