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Bears GM Candidates by the Numbers

Last week, I started out my article by bemoaning the complete lack of statistics to measure GM performance. This whine, however, was followed by an article almost completely lacking in any numbers of its own. To remedy this situation, I have spent the last couple of days converting the draft performances of seven different potential GMs (and one Mr. Jerry Angelo) into my very own GM measurement statistic: the Draft Value Rating System. Follow me below the fold to get the full breakdown of how the many potential GMs did in their drafts from 2001-2007, complete with charts!

Star-divide

There are more statistics in football than you could shake your copy of Football Outsiders Almanac at, so why come up with one more? Simply put, I wanted to create a system that would attempt to objectively measure how well a GM did in his drafts. The system I came up with is pretty straightforward, assuming you find any math straightforward. If you don't, feel free to skip the explanation and go straight to the chart.

Draft Value is designed to be a measurement of, well, the value gained out of a draft pick. I was operating under some basic assumptions:

  • Top-round draft picks should go on to become long-term starters in the NFL
  • MIddle-round draft picks should be able to make an NFL roster and stick around for a couple of years
  • Bottom-round draft picks are valuable if they are able to make an NFL roster, and even more valuable if they become starters.

With these three assumptions in mind, I set about finding a good way to compare player longevity, starter-level quality, and draft position into a basic measure of draft quality. Draft Value (DV) operates on the premise that a starter is twice as valuable as a backup, and a Pro Bowler is three times as valuable as a backup. As such, every player a GM drafts earns one point of DV for every season he was on an NFL roster, another point for every season he was a primary starter in his position, and an extra point on top of that for every Pro Bowl season he had. From here, I applied a curve based on the round in which the player was picked. Since the average career length of a first round pick is nine years, I subtracted eight points off their total score: this curve assesses the value of a first-round pick based on their seasons as a starter and a Pro Bowler, as a first-round pick who is only holding onto a roster spot is not much of a pick at all. This curve gets progressively smaller in the later rounds, until rounds six and seven, where there is no curve at all: any late-round pick who can make a roster is a positive pick according to DV. To give an example of how DV is calculated:

Reggie Wayne has been in the league 11 seasons, has been a primary starter for all of those 11 seasons, and has made five Pro Bowl appearances. 11 seasons + 11 years as a starter + 5 Pro Bowls = 26. Then the curve for him being a first-round pick is applied, and 26 - 8 = 19, his final (and very high) Draft Value score.

The curve is mainly there to give a greater value to later-round picks who end up being strong starting players: Lance Briggs' 22 DV is even higher than Reggie Wayne's, as a third-round pick with multiple Pro Bowls to his name is a "better" pick than a first-rounder with a similarly excellent career: the first-rounder is expected to be a great player by DV. The other reason a curve is applied to higher round picks is to allow for negative scores when top round picks end up going on to have bad careers. For example, Bears' 2003 first-round pick Michael Haynes tied for the worst Draft Value I measured, -5, by only playing three seasons in the NFL and having zero seasons as a primary starter: 3 Season + 0 as a starter + 0 Pro Bowls - 8 for his draft position = -5, an appropriately bad score for squandering a first-round pick on him.

A post containing all the data I looked at would be absurdly long even by my standards, so I put the full data set into a Google spreadsheet that you can view here. I conveniently highlighted offensive linemen, DBs, and WRs in shades of Bears' blue and orange so you can compare how each of the GMs did filling these positions of need for the Bears. I also put a star (*) next to the name of each player who is still active in the league, as these players' scores are "in progress" and can continue to improve as they continue to play. The potential for DV improvement also explains why the averages presented below seem to drop off year by year: more recent drafts have yet to reach their "true" scores.

So, without further ado, here are the average DVs for our "old" GM candidates:

Jerry Angelo

Bill Polian

Tim Ruskell

Ted Sundquist

'01

3.17

8.86

6*

7*

'02

5.44

6.0

1.5*

4.13*

'03

5.91

5.5

4.17*

0.33

'04

4

5.4

6.57*

1.56

'05

5.5

2.8

2.44

3.67

'06

3

6.29

3

6.14

'07

1.44

2.11

4.14

2.5

(A * indicates the candidate in question was not the GM at the time, but was still given a score for the team they were working for.)

As you can see by looking at that data yourself, these top-line averages tell only part of the story. For example, while Bill Polian's below average 2005 draft is largely the result of a big miss in the first round, Tim Ruskell's equally mediocre 2005 draft average is the result of him having a couple of extra lower round picks that drag down his higher-value early picks. With this in mind, what conclusions can we draw from these averages and the numbers behind them?

  • It's clear that Bill Polian was the best drafter of the bunch as a GM: he was consistent in finding starting-caliber players in the first round and also earned big DV points by finding some diamonds in the rough of the late rounds. While I am still worried about the whole dynamic of him and his son and their ugly departure from Indy, the man clearly has a good eye for the draft. While his more recent drafts don't look all that good at first glance, he does have a clear history of first-round success that the Bears have lacked in the Angelo era.
  • Although Tim Ruskell was part of the excellent Rich McKay office from 2001-2004 before he went to Seattle, he managed to never draft a player with a double-digit DV during the years I measured. While that is partially the result of more recent drafts having generally lower scores - players who are still in the league continue to earn DV points - it is also the result of some plain ol' bad drafting. To his credit, though, he has made some very good O-line picks over his career and could help the Bears find more Carimi-like players if he were to take over.
  • This system gives surprisingly decent marks to Jerry Angelo. His median DV score is pretty low based on my eyeball estimate, but his his averages look good on the basis of some great mid- and lower-round picks: Mike Gandy, Alex Brown, Lance Briggs, Bernard Berrian, Kyle Orton, and Chris Harris all became long-time starters after being picked by Jerry in the third round or later. While he often whiffed in the first round, the weighting applied to starters found in the later rounds gives Angelo higher marks than perhaps he deserves. Also, by not looking at more recent seasons, Angelo is given a pass on his most suspect drafts of the last couple of years.
  • Ted Sundquist, who I was promoting as a strong candidate the last time around, doesn't look so good after the numbers were crunched. He missed on many of his early-round picks and didn't make up much ground in the later rounds like Angelo did. That said, he had one of the best draft classes I looked at in 2006, the year he drafted Pro Bowlers Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, and Elvis Dumervil and three other still-active players with his seven picks. He also had a pretty good success rate with his offensive line picks, many of which ended up scoring double-digit DVs by sticking to a roster despite being lower-round picks. Plus, I still like Sundquist as a potential GM if only because he is the candidate most likely to try and bring Brandon Marshall to Chicago.

Now, let's take a look at the new guys:

Phil Emery

Jason Licht

Jimmy Raye

Marc Ross

'01

3.17

5.40

8.00

6.50

'02

5.44

6.17

5.13

8.25

'03

5.91

8.43

5.50

3.83

'04

4.00

9.71

9.22

2.70

'05

5.00

2.00

5.00

3.33

'06

2.33

4.00

4.25

2.78

'07

3.00

3.20

3.50

3.86

Before I jump into my analysis of this latest batch of interviewees, a word of caution. Unlike the actual game of football, where anyone with a TV can see how each player contributes to the team's performance, it's impossible to know exactly how each member of a scouting team contributed to the overall success (or failure) of a draft. Think of it as the GM's version of the "Bill Belichick effect": just because the overall group did well doesn't necessarily mean that a promoted underling will bring that success with them to their next job. With that big asterisk in place, here's my breakdown of this set of numbers:

  • Phil Emery? In a word, meh. He doesn't benefit from having his scores tied to Jerry Angelo's for the first four seasons I looked at, although our '03 draft class wasn't half bad after the first round. His draft classes in Atlanta were equally as mediocre as one would expect out of a Jerry Angelo disciple: after finding two quality starters in the first two rounds of the 2005 draft, the Falcons had two straight years of misses or near-misses in the first two rounds. His luck with finding offensive linesmen is summarized by the fact that his "best" O-line pick with the Falcons according to DV was False Start Frank. The numbers agree with my smell test that Emery would likely have a tough time outdoing his former boss, both getting it right with his first couple of picks and in improving our offensive line.
  • Jason Licht is a possibility I am pretty favorable towards. While history has shown it is wise to be skeptical of former Patriots - ask Josh McDaniels for details - his success in New England traveled with him to Arizona. Admittedly, he was the beneficiary of the Cardinals' bad play on the field: it's a bit easier to get top-quality players when you have top ten picks. Still, other than the Matt Leinart experience, his top picks turned out to be decent enough. I also like that when his team needed a new starting center, he was willing to invest two mid-round picks on the position: clearly he understands just how important getting a functional offensive line is to having a winning football team. His skill at finding wide receivers is equally as good: Larry Fitzgerald was an easy pick in the top ten, but he was also able to find two other quality starters (Anquan Boldin and Steve Breaston) in the later rounds.
  • Jimmy Raye has the best draft success of the bunch, and even beats out Polian for the title of best drafter according to DV. His drafting of offensive linesmen was shaky in the earlier years I looked at, but his drafting in this area steadily improved over the years. Simply put, the guy can draft. I do worry about the Chargers management staff outside of their drafts - they seem to have found themselves on the wrong side of some big-time trades over the last ten years - but you have to admire a team that can draft its way into the luxury of trading away starting-caliber franchise players when they feel like it.
  • Marc Ross looks to be the victim of the Belicheck effect. In Philadelphia, he had some good looking drafts, but once he went up the road to Buffalo, his DV took a nose dive. Part of this may be because the Bills are simply a bad team, but the numbers bear out that most of his draft picks ended up being not all that good. His drafting was especially bad in regards to offensive linesmen in the years I looked at. That said, his more recent drafts with the Giants have worked out much better so far, so perhaps the general badness of the Bills is more to blame than some major flaw in Ross' eye for talent. Not my first choice, or even my second.

While my measurement system is beautiful in its simplicity, it doesn't do a good job of taking into account some of the many other things as GM is responsible for. I'm sure there is a way I could include the DV of picks traded for players, but that would require some mathematical gymnastics beyond what I wanted to do here. Also, by giving double points for seasons spent as a starter, GMs are penalized for already having a strong roster and being able to plan ahead: the "Aaron Rodgers effect," if you will. For example, Bill Polian gets a low score for taking Anthony Gonzalez in the first round of the 2007 draft: while Gonzalez has stayed in the league and has been a decent enough WR, he has never been a consistent starter because he plays behind other Polian draft picks who are far better. Also, the use of seasons as a starter and Pro Bowl seasons as the only measurements of a player's value is a somewhat crude method to account for a player's overall value to a team. A more fine-grained approach would use an advanced statistic like pro-football-reference.com's AV to account for the quality of play out of a draftee. Speaking of PFR, I have to give them infinite thanks for their Draft Finder, which made this whole project much more straightforward by providing me with all the data in one convenient location.

Please, take a look at my lovely Bears-colored draft charts and let me know who you think would be the best GM of the bunch would be down in the comments. It looks like we're in for the long haul on this search, but there are still some good-looking candidates in the prospect pool. Let's just hope the Bears can reel one in.

UPDATE: I just finished applying a new curve to the data to recenter the numbers on zero. The updated spreadsheet can be viewed here, and I will update the charts on this page when I get home from work at about 6:30 tonight.

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How about promoting Rod "pad level" Marinelli to GM, yes?

What's so funny 2011 Lions? Gordon Bombay doesn't think losing is funny.
Leshoure = 2012 Beastmode

Draft Konz!!

by Dtrain81 on Jan 12, 2012 10:21 PM CST reply actions  

He learned from the best, after all.

You may have seen him on TV – his name is Matt Millen.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 12, 2012 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

touché, touché.

What's so funny 2011 Lions? Gordon Bombay doesn't think losing is funny.
Leshoure = 2012 Beastmode

Draft Konz!!

by Dtrain81 on Jan 13, 2012 7:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Good article

Very nice and lots of work went into this I can tell.

The more I read about Jason Licht the better I like him. I’d be happy if he was the choice.

"And furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed."

by TheotherDane on Jan 12, 2012 10:39 PM CST reply actions  

I agree

but, then again how could I not agree to anyone on the list of four to interwview
(i.e. The NOT Tim Ruskell effect)
I would like to see us raid the Patriots or the Chargers. They always seem to have talent.

by Eggerbet on Jan 12, 2012 11:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep

I’m thinking that as well, i like the mentality of those organizations and if the Bears are lucky maybe one of those guys can incorporate that in Chicago.

by chicagocity on Jan 12, 2012 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

This is revolutionary

And rather revealing at the same time. With that said, I still would prefer Marc Ross over anyone; however, Jimmy Raye looks to be a very close second. And, I’ll still be happy if Ted Sundquist is hired, but not nearly as happy if either Ross or Raye were to be hired as the new Bears GM.

Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that

by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Jan 12, 2012 10:46 PM CST reply actions  

The system could use a bit of polish

If I get the chance, I’m hoping to recalculate the curves for each round so the average value of a pick is 0 – that way it would be more clear how good a pick was for the round it was made in.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 12, 2012 11:41 PM CST up reply actions  

oh so close to being done with the new curve

it does seem to be doing a good job of making clear who had good drafts and who had bad ones: good draft classes come out to have positive scores, bad ones get negative scores. I’ll have the numbers updated on here by ten or so.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm looking forward to this new curve

I honestly feel you’re onto something big here.

Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that

by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Jan 13, 2012 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Are you normalizing (adjusting the curve) based on the league as a whole, or just the GM candidates?

I’d guess the next optimizations would be to curve on smaller ranges (probably not down to individual draft picks, since there wouldn’t be large enough sample size), and then to account for differences in position (I imagine OTs rate higher than QBs since teams start two OTs and they can be moved to guard if they can’t handle tackle).

Advanced NFL stats did some work analyzing draft performance for different positions. I haven’t had time to really dig in to what they were doing, but it looked like they did quite a bit of work and would help when I got around to working on my draft evaluator (which might look pretty similar to what you’re doing).

by BusterK on Jan 13, 2012 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Making the curve

I took the median value for first, second, third, fourth & fifth. and sixth & seventh round picks only out of my data set. I went with median instead of average to prevent the top players from bringing up the average and thusly giving the “average” draft pick a negative value. I didn’t differentiate by position – only by draft round – but if I had unlimited time it would be a more robust way to compare players.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

for doing the work. Really. I was looking for tsomething just like this the last few days, but couldn’t find it. That being said … quick hide this article so other teams don’t find out!

by Eggerbet on Jan 12, 2012 11:18 PM CST reply actions  

I did end up being hidden for a day

Right after I hit publish the first time, I saw that the next article below mine was the list of new interviewees – hence it being sorted into “old” candidates and new ones.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 12, 2012 11:35 PM CST up reply actions  

From the same article

Jeremy Bates is out as one of the candidates. It appears the Bears felt screwed over when Bates chose to go to Seattle in 2010. Candidates now are Clyde Christensen (why?), Greg Olson who’s already interviewed, and Jedd Fisch who may not be able to interview until early next month.

Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that

by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Jan 13, 2012 8:47 AM CST up reply actions  

It appears the Bears felt screwed over when Bates chose to go to Seattle in 2010

Well, they ended up with Mike Martz, so I’d say they were pretty screwed.

Took the 'G' out your waffle, all you got left is your Ego.

Editor at windycitygridiron.com | @Kev_WCG

by Kev H on Jan 13, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't like the idea

of letting things get personal. If he is the best person for the job (and I don’t know if he is) they need to swallow their egos and give him a shot.

by tomas21 on Jan 13, 2012 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

He might never have been the best person for the job, he just looked the part.

I think, maybe, the sheen that made him look like the best person for the job, was rubbed off when he turned the Bears down. Without that sheen now, he just looks like any other QB coach.

by BusterK on Jan 13, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice Article But Now Im Depressed

because the GM candidates don’t seem that great with the stats you made. I wonder if what the numbers would be for McKenzie and DaCosta if we grabbed them?

by Gaak on Jan 13, 2012 3:04 AM CST reply actions  

Good work

I’m not sure you should’ve given so much weight to years as a pro through. Guys like Omiyale and Trumaine McBride have ratings about as high as Roddy White just because they have stayed in the league, while White at the very end of the 1st round is one of the better picks for any team in the past decade.

by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2012 5:09 AM CST reply actions  

It's an imperfect system

Ideally, I would weight by pick # instead of round: the curve would be very high for the top ten picks and come down from there. The numbers are also still in progress for both players: I’m guessing that in a couple of years White’s DV would continue to rise while Omiyale’s will (hopefully) stop getting bigger once we kick his sorry self to the curb.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 8:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Right

and I agree its a cool system, but if Omiyale gets a grade in a similar range to Roddy White, then you have a major, major flaw that needs correction for your system to be of any real value.

by tomas21 on Jan 13, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

false

Roddy White should be a good player – he was a first round draft pick. False Start Frank, for all his faults, has overperformed for being a fifth-round pick.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

also

Keep in mind this isn’t a system of judging the quality of a player – there are plenty of ways to do that already. My goal is to judge how successful the drafting was, and Roddy White has only been a (slightly) above average first-round pick. Frank has lasted in the league much longer and had more starting seasons than the average fifth-round pick, thus his high DV value: while he’s bad, he’s better than most fifth-rounders.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

But he has been a terrible starter

Angelo (or whoever drafted Omiyale) shouldn’t get points for failing to replace his terrible players.

Roddy White is among the best players at his position over the past 6-7 years. He was a fantastic pick wherever he was drafted. Frank Omiyale has been terrible, has held his position more because of money committed to him than ability, and has taken the spot of someone who might be better. To me Omiyale is worth less than zero (because if you had nobody, you’d be forced to go find an adequate player.

If your system values both players similarly, then imo your system isn’t usable to assess GMs. I don’t say that to insult your work, but to give you areas to refine it. That’s if you want to. You have already spent way more time on it than anyone on a message board could expect you to. It’s not like you are getting paid for it.

by tomas21 on Jan 13, 2012 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

The players aren't rated the same, the drafting of those players is rated the same.

As bad as Omiyale may be, he has made it past multiple rounds of cuts over a lot of other players who weren’t better than him.

I would guess the reason why the Bears ended up having to pay as much as they are for Omiyale is because at least one other team thought he was worth a similar amount. The Bears, and other NFL teams, have cut players for salary reasons with less money involved. He wouldn’t be on the team unless “they” thought he was their best option.

by BusterK on Jan 13, 2012 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not false

The people we consider good GMs are the ones who hit big on several picks, not ones who find a bunch of fillers in late rounds.

There is no way a 1st round pick should turn into a Roddy White type player. There have been 300+ first round picks in the past decade, and I’d be surprised if more than 30 were better than him. And those 30 are the guys that change seasons, not the Omiyale picks.

by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd go as far as to say that

a system that completely disregards role players, and focuses just on guys who are primary starters and pro bowlers, adjusted a bit for pick … would be a more telling system.

Polian missed on a ton of picks with the Colts, even early in his term. But because he got Peyton, Edgerrin, Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Clark, Sanders (almost all in the 1st round too), he was looked at as one of the most dominant GM of that decade.

by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I wonder if you could make a scoring system

that assesses where players in a draft SHOULD have been taken, and then give a weighted score based on the differential from that. (This would be a lot of work).

So let’s say the top player from a given draft is worth 5000, the second best player is worth 4900, etc, with more weight given to the higher-end players.

Then you could assign the same points to the draft picks, from 1-210, with the first pick being worth 5000, the second pick worth 4900, etc.

Then you could assess a differential value for each player in a given draft. So the year Tom Brady was drafted, he was worth 5000 points, and the draft choice where he was taken was worth, say 10 points, then he was a +4990 pick. Jamarcus Russell, on the other hand, would be worth -4990 or whatever.

That would, I think, appropriately weight the huge scores late in the draft, and would appropriately punish franchise-killing picks like Russell.

That would sure be a lot of work, not to mention the difficulty in ranking players. It’s easy to rank Brady number 1, but deciding whether the guy who has been a nickel corner is worth more than a backup guard would be really tough.

But I think that would give you a better way to grade out drafts. Just my opinion.

by tomas21 on Jan 13, 2012 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Way too difficult

And it introduces a bias into the system, as you’ve identified…

the difficulty in ranking players. It’s easy to rank Brady number 1, but deciding whether the guy who has been a nickel corner is worth more than a backup guard would be really tough.

The system as he’s done it is pretty clean, because years of service, years as a starter and Pro Bowl appearances are numbers, rather than opinions or judgments. Ranking offensive tackles against quarterbacks and safeties for overall worth is something the brightest minds in the NFL still can’t do consistently.

However, there could be some way to incorporate that “Tom Brady Effect” using a real number: 199. That was the pick at which he was drafted. The trick would be weighting, in this draft value scenario, the difference between a GM choosing Peyton Manning with pick #1 v a GM picking Brady at #199.

My first thought is that it shouldn’t be a straight weight, because once you get to pick #199 every team in the NFL has passed on that player multiple times, and you’re really no luckier for picking Tom Brady at #199 than you would have been at #149 or #99.

Maybe adjusting by the round number (Brady in round 6 v Peyton in round 1), or dividing the pick by the number of teams (Brady: 199/32 = 6.22; Peyton: 1/32 = 0.03). The trick would be to work these values into the formula in a way that didn’t overly penalize a GM for taking Peyton, which was still a damn fine choice. And that’s a segue into the “Ryan Leaf Effect”, which is a completely different matter altogether.

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 13, 2012 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

It's no more bias

than what goes into Pro Bowl voting. It’s not much more bias than using years as a starter, since there aren’t many other teams who would view Omiyale as a starter. Jamarcus Russell was a starter for a couple years—should the Raiders get points for that?

It would be a really difficult system to put together. There would be bias.

But it would tell you more than this system does.

by tomas21 on Jan 13, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

It absolutely would be more biased than Pro Bowl voting....

…because only one person would be performing the calculation of

where players in a draft SHOULD have been taken

NFL Pro Bowl voting is determined by fan votes (one-third), coaches votes (one-third) and player votes (one-third). The most influence that any one person’s opinion can have in that scenario is an NFL coach, who accounts for 1/32 of 33.3% (1.04%).

And it’s FAR more biased that years of service or years as a starter, because those are reported numbers, not judgment calls nor opinions. There aren’t many other teams who would view Omiyale as a starter? It takes one injury to put False Start Frank into a starters’ role on the vast majority of teams in the NFL. And that fact that he’s still in the league and viable backup means he still has some worth.

Jamarcus Russell started 25 games of 31 games that he played over the course of three years. He started 15 games in 2008, during which he completed 54% of his passes, threw for 2400 yards on 6.6 yards per attempt, and threw 13 TDs compared to 8 INTs for a QB rating of 77.1. So I say, yes, the Raiders should get points for that. Becuase, in turn, they will not receive points for the 49 games and 55 starts that Russell has missed since that point – in contrast to, for example, Calvin Johnson’s 76 games, 71 starts, 2 Pro Bowls as the very next pick (only missing 4 games and 9 starts).

Based on this system as stated, Megatron is worth 149 points and Russell is worth 56 points at this moment – and this difference will continue to grow over time. I suggested a multiplier that, at this moment, would rate Megatron 41% higher, based on the square root of either 2 Pro Bowls or 2 All Pros (and that multiplier will continue to increase, as well).

You’ve suggested a system that both introduces personal bias (is Russell worth more than Josh Beekman, who played in 28 games and started in 20 at guard for the Bears?) and so hypothetical as to be non-maintainable and even moot (who is worth more, Calvin Johnson or Adrian Peterson?).

Just my opinion, of course. ;-)

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 13, 2012 7:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Pro Bowl voting

is still just opinions. It’s the opinions of many, but it’s still opinions. There isn’t a scientific way to evaluate the draft, since pretty much all assessments of players are based on opinions in one way or another.

I stand by my assertation that any system that grades out a Frank Omiyale pick as roughly equivalent to a Roddy White pick is flawed to the point of being unusable. And if the same system has Calvin Johnson as only a 149-56 advantage in points is laughable. Jamarcus Russell set back that franchise for years (and is widely considered one of the biggest busts in NFL history), and Calvin Johnson MIGHT end up being the best Wide Receiver ever. And he has less than a 3:1 advantage in points? Come on.

Also, I would take Calvin Johnson before Adrian Peterson. Positional scarcity and longevity. It’s relatively easy to find great RBs but quite diffiult to find elite WRs. RBs tend to have shorter careers, and shorter periods of dominance than wide receivers.

If I was ranking the top 3 players from that draft, I’d probably put Calvin Johnson 1, Revis 2 and Peterson 3, and the main reason Peterson is 3rd is because he is a RB. Since CJ went 2nd, Peterson 7th and Revis 14th, Revis would be the most valuable pick in that draft of the 3.

And yes, Beekman was a better pick than Russell. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who evaluates talent that doesn’t think Beekman in the 3rd or whatever, who was basically a serviceable backup for awhile, wasn’t a FAR better pick than Russell, who embarrassed the franchise and set them back several years. If the NFL redrafted that year’s players, Beekman would probably go somewhere around where he did—3rd to 5th round or so. Not a big differential from his draft spot. Russell would go late, and he’d only be drafted at all if some GM thought it was all the money and attention that ruined him. So he’d have a huge negative differential from his draft spot.

I’m not trying to rip on the guy who created this, because it was obviously a lot of work. But it isn’t “revolutionary”, and it would take a lot, lot more work to find a tool that was.

by tomas21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Opinions, personal bias, opinions, personal bias

I understand your points. They’re full of opinions and personal bias.

I never wrote that the system was revolutionary. But it is good work. If you want a better system, then become a better statistician and create one.

But the system you suggested was completely unmaintainable and even more fraught with personal bias than Pro Bowl voting.

If I was ranking the top 3 players from that draft, I’d probably put Calvin Johnson 1, Revis 2 and Peterson 3, and the main reason Peterson is 3rd is because he is a RB. Since CJ went 2nd, Peterson 7th and Revis 14th, Revis would be the most valuable pick in that draft of the 3.

C’mon, that’s the EASY part. Who would you rank #181, #182, and #183?

See what I mean?

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 14, 2012 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I suggested an easy tweak

Rather than adding the Pro Bowls (or even All Pros), multiply by their square root.

Calvin Johnson today would have (76+71)*1.41 = 207 points to Russels 56.

Next season, if Megatron starts all 16 games and makes Pro Bowl or All Pro again: (92+87)*1.73 = 310.

Easily maintainable, no personal bias. Bam. Done. Do you have an “Easy Button” handy? ;-)

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 14, 2012 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Well nobody said we were looking for an EASY system

I thought we were talking about how to make the most informative system. :)

You could make it a lot easier by ranking the top 32 players from each draft, then giving the remaining players a round grade based on where they’d probably go if a re-draft was done. That would eliminate a lot of the random choices between who goes at 180, 181, and 182 as you mentioned. So Corey Graham, in the 07 draft, might go in the third or fourth round since he’s become a solid special teamer and it was a pretty weak draft. Angelo would get decent points for that pick,. I haven’t looked close enough at the numbers to see where Olsen would rank, but I’d guess he would be pretty close to where he was taken (again, because it was a shallow class). But the rest of his picks were terrible. So he would probably get a negative number for that draft, as he should.

You could probably also use the point system already created for the draft trade value chart, since that is already weighted for the first round, then you the median score for each round thereafter.

I still think Jamarcus Russell should have a negative score in any system. You can’t strike out THAT bad and get points for it. He’s a franchise killer and a career-ender for a GM. The system, if it is being used to evaluate GMs, should reflect that. If Russell is getting 56 points, it isn’t properly reflecting how poor a pick he was. 56 points means he is as good a pick as a decent second rounder or something, right? I don’t think anyone thinks that Russell was anything more than an awful pick, do you? The system doesn’t reflect that.

Maybe if I get bored today or tomorrow I’ll score Angelo and the 4 candidates using a quick and dirty version of my system and see how it correlates to the OPs.

by tomas21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

You make some good points

A few things to note, though:
-In an apples to apples comparison, Roddy White does have the highest DV of any 2005 1st round pick.
-The DV system doesn’t have any way to “know” the skill of a player other than the three numbers it is given: years played, years starting, and Pro Bowls. I do like the suggestion below that Pro Bowl appearances should give the DV score a multiplier, as this would correct for the fact that PB players are really, really valuable. Even among first-rounders, the median # of PBs is 0.
-The system does have a certain favoritism towards lower-round picks, but this is only because the numbers worked out that way: while the median first round pick in 2005 has an unweighted DV of 12, a median fourth or fifth round pick will have a DV of only 6. In regards to your specific observation – that Roddy White only gets one more point thank Omiyale – DV arrives at that conclusion because a first round pick is assumed to be twice as good as a fifth rounder when the curve is applied. WIthout the curve, it quite correctly notes that Roddy White is a way better player, and if I wanted to make a system that gave me a rough estimate of how good a player was, I would just take out the weighting and let the numbers stand as-is. What I do want the numbers to tell me, though, is how good a draft pick was compared to all the other players taken in that round. By the end of his career, White will have numbers as gaudy as his skills merit, but for now, he has to keep playing at an elite level to have a score in the Reggie Wayne (DV of 13) area.
-On the other side, Omiyale has overperformed for where he was picked. He is one of only two 2005 fifth-round picks that I looked at who is still even in the league! That he has stuck around so long is worth some points for the GM who found him.

Again, this system is not designed to measure player skill, only to compare the value of a pick as measured against other picks from the same round.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 14, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

btw

I am going to do a new post early next week to present my new numbers (the ones with the new curve) and to address the problems you (and others) mentioned. I really do appreciate your critiques, as it will help me find ways to tweak the system to make is a better measure of draft success.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 14, 2012 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Glad you didn't take it the wrong way

It’s an interesting discussion. And we should probably leave Omiyale out because I think he’s barely worth an NFL roster spot, let alone having started as many games as he has. I think a lot of his starts are based on Angelo’s mis-evaluation of him and the amount of money committed.

by tomas21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Question

Would this not cause early drafts in a GMs career to be potentially rated higher?

by thepreacher on Jan 13, 2012 7:16 AM CST reply actions  

The earlier drafts are worth more

Mostly because more recent drafts feature more current players who are still accumulating years of service.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

this is neutralized

as long as when comparing GMs you look at same year statistics. Everyone’s 2005 picks have had the same amount of time to succeed/fail, and by averaging you negate the “he had more picks”

I think its a great start for a system, and agree with an above that it is borderline “revolutionary”. Not to create work, but if you found a metric-method to evaluate trades and FA signings, and then could give a triple score (i think an average score would bind your eval method of FA and trades too much), we’d have a nice baseline…

If you find a few extra free hours to slave away at our expense, it’d be nice to see the ratings of guys currently thought of as the best GMs in the NFL who are NOT candidates for our job to help establish expectations…aka, what does a “5” really mean? How do some of the best drafts in NFL history look by your scoring? Some of the worst?

Knowing the range of historical drafts, and some of the rating assigned to the “best in the business” outside of the Bears world, would let us understand what the numbers mean better.

I think Angelo’s scores are telling – middling to average looking drafts. Most of the years ranged from 3-5, with none hitting a “6”. I think it matches his “system” of going with high floors rather than high ceilings – he avoided many risky outright busts overall (he had some, yes), but also didn’t get nearly as many high-ceiling players to balance it out. He is the penultimate Kyle Orton drafter :)

I like Jimmy Raye’s numbers best – middle of the road drafts with occasional surges up into the 8/9 range. Outside of 2003, a majority of the higher round picks (1st-3rd) are still playing in the NFL…but when I look over the name lists, I am far less impressed with his actual success at Receiver and O-Line.

Not to sound silly, but I wonder how those same numbers come up when you drop punters. Sundquist got 19 points from a 2001 punter (he had a 7 in that draft), and it drops to a 4.6 without his Punter pick. Not saying punters don’t count or anything.

"just as Gary Fencik will go down as the last person to catch a Joe Namath pass, Wootton will be remembered in NFL history as the last player to sack Brett Favre." - John "Moon" Mullin

by Brendan Hess on Jan 13, 2012 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

wait for the curve to hit

That will fix the problem of “what does a five mean”: positive scores will be good, negative ones bad. I would call the system “Draft Value Over Average”, but FO already took DVOA as an acronym. With the new curve, a score of “five” would mean the GM found a pick with five more seasons of value in him than the average player taken in that round.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 8:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I originally thought about trades and free agency, too

For example, I didn’t think that a player who moves via free agency to another team should have been counted for that team. Whereas, picks like Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton should’ve counted for the Broncos and Bears, respectively, because they were used as assets to acquire other assets, regardless of whether that trade ‘panned out’ in the future.

But then I realized Steve created this metric to measure the drafting skills of GMs, and not their performance in general. And for that it works perfectly fine. For example, the GM who chose Steve Hutchinson in the draft isn’t contemplating the possibility of losing him years later – he only wants to make the best pick possible. And quite often the GMs making the picks are not the same GMs who are subsequently making the trades and free agency decisions.

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 13, 2012 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

While I do understand the value of Average Draft Value...

I think there’s also some value in seeing the Absolute Draft Value. With more draft picks, there’s the chance that a couple of absolutely amazing picks get drowned out by a plethora of average or below average picks, and I think that the candidates should be rewarded for a Tom Brady pick even if the rest of their draft is lackluster.

Maybe another way of doing this is to not only look at ProBowls (which can be deceiving with upwards of half of all awarded ProBowlers sit and Reserves play in their spots), but also First and Second Team All-Pro. There are generally fewer All-Pros than there are ProBowlers in any given year. While, yes, you do get a Chris Harris Effect where a guy gets voted onto the Second Team while tied with a buncha other players, I think that there’s more value in an All-Pro than there is in a ProBowler. Yes, I understand that both voting processes have flaws. But a 1st team All-Pro is likely worth more than a ProBowler that doesn’t make the All-Pro team at all.

Is there a way to incorporate both of these thoughts into the statistic?

by Doshi on Jan 13, 2012 9:10 AM CST reply actions  

It could be done

My desire to enter more data right now, however, is below average. I’ll probably keep working on this system, if only because nobody else seems to be working on a way of measuring draft success on this level.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

A very simple way using the data you've already aggregated...

…would be to multiply their years as a starter by the square root of their Pro-Bowl appearances (rather than adding the Pro Bowl appearances).

With Roddy White, for example, you would be multiplying by 2 (the square root of 4 Pro Bowls). In other words, his four Pro Bowls make him 2x as valuable as someone who has made only 1 Pro Bowl, or none at all.

Tom Brady, who has been chosen for 7 Pro Bowls, would be 2.65x as valuable as a player chosen for none or one. Brian Urlacher would be 2.82x as valuable. Ray Lewis is 3.61x as valuable (seriously, 13 Pro Bowls???).

Also, it would get rid of one outlier, that being a player who made ‘only’ one Pro Bowl during his career. For example, if a player has 10 years of service, or 10 as a starter, and he’s made one Pro Bowl, is he that much more valuable than a player who has made none? But once the player makes his second Pro Bowl, that multiplier is automagically increased to 1.41.

Or, you could do this operation for All-Pros, rather than Pro Bowl appearances. Just a though.

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 13, 2012 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Also too

The curve I just applied to the data set does reward this Tom Brady effect, as I used the median values of seasons played, Pro Bowls, and seasons as starter: since players like Tom Brady are well above the median, their outsized value will pop out a bit more than it did under my estimated curves.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

26-8 is not 19.

At least I don’t think so…. Nice article though.

Above all; keep 'em guessing, never let them lose their sense of confusion.

by Just Dave on Jan 13, 2012 12:17 PM CST reply actions  

Whoops!

I’ll be sure to fix that when I post the updated numbers later tonight.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 13, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm going to check your math.

But I like this.

Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...

by awfullyquiet on Jan 13, 2012 12:53 PM CST reply actions  

Great work

You must have a lot of free time on your hands. ;-)

I’ve made some suggestions above, per the previously-noted gaps in the measure:

1. Adjusting by a multiplier of the square root of Pro Bowls or All Pros, rather than straight addition;

2. Adjusting by round or pick number, possibly pick number divided by the number of teams (32).

I think point #2 is the more difficult of the two, because of the examples of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Ryan Leaf. Tom Brady was a once-in-a-lifetime pick, and all things being equal he should’ve been chosen #1. But 32 teams, even the team that eventually chose him, passed on him multiple times. So that pick at that point in the draft is really more luck than talent. He would’ve been a ‘savvy’ pick in rounds 1-3, maybe rounds1-4, because no other GM would’ve taken him that high. But if no GM is going to take him by round 6, the Patriots were just throwing stuff against the wall like every other team that late in the proceedings. I submit that if Bill Belichik had any idea that Tom Brady would make even one Pro Bowl at QB, he wouldn’t have let him slide into the second day.

And a GM who took Peyton at pick #1 still made a damn fine choice, only much less lucky than Tom Brady at pick #199. But Ryan Leaf at #2 is a franchise-killer for several years. A GM who makes a mistake like that isn’t unlucky, like the GM who passed at Brady at #198, but a victim of both bad scouting and bad judgment, at the very least. Whereas, the GM who passed on Tom Brady at #198 is no less savvy for that reason than Bill Belichik, who passed on him with picks #46 (Adrian Klemm), #76 (JR Redmond), #127 (Gregg Randall), #141 (Dave Stachelski), #161 (Jeff Marriott) and #187 (Antwan Harris).

But it’s a great start, nonetheless.

by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 13, 2012 5:44 PM CST reply actions  

I had originally planned on doing #2

That’s why in the first four drafters I looked at there is a column for “Pick #” that is just sitting there not doing anything. I realised, however, that I simply don’t have enough data in my system yet to give a fair estimate of the value of a top ten overall pick as compared to a pick in the 30s. I would need to look at every team over multiple seasons to get a weighting system that was sensitive enough to “know” how good a pick should be on a scale smaller than the round they were taken in. I am going to take you up on the idea to have a PB multiplier, though, as that would be a good way to deal with the “Roddy White vs. Frank Omiyale effect” being debated up the thread.

by Steve Ronkowski on Jan 14, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

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