Vikings shopping the #3 pick
Like I said in the comments. It would be awesome if we could move up to get Kalil.
4 months ago
Joeb'n777
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I don't think linemen are all that valuable
This year, the Giants are starting one of worst LTs in football in David Diehl. The Packers won last year with a mediocre 34-year old Clifton. Jermon Bushrod was a terrible LT for the 2009 Saints champs. I think it matters that an LT can pass protect decently… but as long as he can do that, I don’t see much value difference between him and a superstar LT.
Kalil is rated about as high as I’ve seen any tackle rated outside of Jake Long, but plenty of other can’t miss LTs missed (Jason Smith, Levi Brown, Okung. Some of them have panned out, like Long/Thomas/TrentWilliams/Monroe/Clady/D’Brickashaw… but I’m not sure it’s had a big effect on their teams.
Maybe I’m being biased by recent history, but I’m starting to believe that a stud QB, a few capable receiving targets, and a few gamechanging defenders is what wins. The players at other positions’ jobs are to not screw up. If you believe Blackmon is the next Calvin/Fitz, I’d get him. Otherwise, stay at #19.
I guess an easy reply to that is
the Bears have J’Marcus at LT, so Kalil would be a huge upgrade there. That’s possible, but the price to move up to #3 will probably be extraordinary. Atlanta gave up two 1sts, a 2nd, and two 4ths to move up to draft Julio Jones this year. If the Bears feel upgrading at LT is necessary, I’d rather they just make it a free agent priority.
105 sacks over the past two years!
That’s an average of 52.5 per year for the past two seasons.
The Giants only gave up a total of 28 sacks this past year… The 2010 Packers allowed 38… the 2009 Saints only gave up a grand total of 20 sacks that year.
So while you say one member of that line was “mediocre”, the entire unit excelled across the board. I’m not saying that we should move up to #3 and take a LT, but our offensive line needs some major upgrades before we have an offense truly able to compete with the big boys.
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by David Taylor on Jan 27, 2012 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Jay would beg to differ
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like running for his life every game.
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 27, 2012 9:46 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I bet Jay would rather have two 1sts, a 2nd, and two 4ths
to spend on players who can help him win a Super Bowl, even if he has to run for his life a bit more.
Have to respectfully disagree...
The Giants have one of the best pass protecting lines in the NFL. GB is average. Your line can have a weak LT, but as a unit they need to be strong. The Bears have a bad LT and bad rest of the line. So any significant upgrade is… well… significant. Kalil is also supposedly a ridiculous prospect… rated like Long/Ferguson… not Smith/Brown. The other difference is they have many more playmakers on offense and better QBs. Plus there are a ton of great WR FAs and prospects, very few LT FAs and prospects.
At any rate, to the original post… yes, getting Kalil would be amazing, but we all know it won’t happen. The old trade value chart (not gospel but a starting point) shows:
1(3) – 2200 points
1(19) – 875 points
So at best we’re trading two 1sts and a 2nd for the pick. But since high picks don’t cost as much guaranteed money, they are more likely valued more than the old chart.
by IOftenPanic on Jan 27, 2012 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Why do you think the Bears will have pass protection issues next year outside of LT?
Chris Williams and Edwin Williams combined to give up 1 sack and 4 qb hits all season. Garza gave up 1 sack and 2 qb hits. Spencer gave up 0 sacks and 2 qb hits.
The problems were entirely on the tackles last year. It sounds like you believe in Carimi’s ability (he gave up just 1 sack and 0 hits this year in limited time), so he presents a massive upgrade over Louis/Omiyale. All that’s left is LT.
Do you have a link to those numbers?
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 27, 2012 9:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Mostly because Webb is not good...
…and overall neither is anyone on our line. Carimi is not a proven commodity and could be an injury problem as well as CWill. I am not as high on Webb/Louis as some are here. Garza is not likely to improve (just the opposite). As a unit we were one of the worst pass blocking lines (and run blocking) in the NFL. I see us making marginal improvements at best if we don’t inject actual high-end talent vs. projects.
by IOftenPanic on Jan 28, 2012 11:01 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Okay
The Bears line gave up 34 sacks this year. 15 additional sacks came from defenses overstacking the line and Martz not having an answer for it.
12 of those 34 sacks were the fault of Louis+Omiyale, neither of whom I want back. J’Marcus was a problem, and gave up 12 more, but he’s young and talented and so I’m okay with giving him another shot.
That leaves just 10 sacks combined for the center and guard positions, and tight ends, and Forte and Clutts and Bell, and for QBs who held the ball too long (Hanie had a couple late in the year). That’s nothing.
You say the Bears interior oline isn’t good at pass protecting, but that stats don’t show that. Garza isn’t a good run blocker, and CWill isn’t particularly great at it either, but they’re capable pass protectors.
Most sacks don't come from interior rushing typically....
And just counting sacks doesn’t tell the whole picture. Hurries (and similar stats) need to be accounted for plus you can just watch the game and see our QBs running for their lives an inordinate amount of time. Yes, some is on Martz, but Cutler’s elusiveness also helps on the other hand.
Almost every advanced metric rates our OL as well below average, both as a unit, and for the most part as individual pieces.
Beyond that I personally saw very little during the season that suggested to me any one of OL starters was going to be better than average.
And I disagree on Webb. He’s young but I don’t see talented. Our OL, in my opinion, has a bunch of backup/swing types and very few impact starters. Carimi is the only one I could see panning out as league-average or better as a complete blocker.
by IOftenPanic on Jan 29, 2012 2:29 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
This^
Although, I could see Edwin and Chris Williams and even Lance Louis as at least serviceable starters elsewhere in the league.
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 29, 2012 11:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Right, almost any young starter can become a serviceable starter
The top rated tackles in the league this year included Zack Strief (a Saints 7th rounder who played TE in 2010), Jermon Bushrod (one of the league’s worst LTs for a couple years when he was younger), Jared Gaither (a 6’9" former 5th rounder who was released midseason before dominating with the Chargers). The top rated guard was Evan Mathis, a journeyman who was signed for 1 year and $735k an offseason ago.
It’s not realistic to say that a 6’8" 350lb Webb, or a 6’6" 320lb former 1st rounder CWilliams, or an Edwin Williams who wasn’t a highly ranked prospect but who has produced in limited time…. can’t become league average.
by YaoPau on Jan 30, 2012 2:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
thank you.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:34 AM CST up reply actions
And you just said a mouthful, brother.
I could see Edwin and Chris Williams and even Lance Louis as at least serviceable starters elsewhere in the league.
If the Bears had any patience in developing young linemen in ONE position, we might have had a successful brought on a linemen a couple of times since Olin Kreutz.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:44 AM CST up reply actions
Most sacks may not come from interior linemen, but most are enabled by interior rush.
It happens to be the plan of attack behind our defense. It’s why the 3-Tech is so important. The idea is that the interior rush forces movement from the quarterback and decreases the amount of time he has to set his feet. If he throws early the play is less likely successful (hurried) and if he runs to the outside the DEs are coming in to do their jobs (sack).
Webb was expected to be a three year project before he ever saw the field. Instead, the Bears decided not to provide an answer in the meantime (mostly because Smith and his staff have little or no patience for development, something that applies to the vast majority of fans, as well). He progress a lot as the year went on, and after the buy, the only time he really got owned was when Jared Allen went all Hall-of-Famer on him in Week 17, and Allen has done that to some of the best tackles in the league, so I can forgive it.
The lack of patience in development of linemen is the reason Chicago hasn’t had a successful linemen raised by the franchise since Olin Kreutz.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:40 AM CST up reply actions
Random OL thought
The Bears have a player at each OL position who has had success starting at that position.
LT CWilliams (rated out great in final 5 games of 2009, people only remember the terrible wk1 game in ’10)
LG Frank Omiyale (2nd half of 2009, rated as one of the best guards in the NFL)
C Chris Spencer (had some league average years there in pass protection)
RG Edwin Williams (limited snaps, but 3/3 good games here in 2010, and was solid at LG in 2011)
RT Carimi (again, limited snaps, but rated out nicely in two games in 2011)
It’s not the prettiest looking line I’ve ever seen, and I’m not saying that should be the Bears’ line in 2012. But it’s kinda depressing that Tice has switched four of those five to different positions without getting results.
I'm not sure how I missed this the first time
The Giants have one of the best pass protecting lines in the NFL.
They actually have the worst-rated pass protecting line in the NFL. Diehl rated worse than Webb, McKenzie rated as one of the league’s worst RTs, Snee/Boothe/Baas all rated below average. More objectively, the Giants allowed more QB hits than the Bears, and led the league in pressures allowed. Eli has had a remarkable year.
No, I don't see any bias here.
I wisdom refined by more than just recent history.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:42 AM CST up reply actions
Your crazy bro. If the Bears were to move up that high, they would be better off with Blackmon or Claiborne
Wouldnt it be funny if we had another DE with the last name Salters!
Blackmon would be awesome
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jan 27, 2012 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, It would probably be dumb for the Bears to trade up that high but if they did, Blackmon would easily be the selection.
Wouldnt it be funny if we had another DE with the last name Salters!
No
There are plenty of starting caliber LTs that can be had with the 19th pick , or even in the 2nd round.
Mike Adams from OSU is rated anywhere from mid 1st to mid 2nd
Johnathon Martin from Stanford is rated anywhere from high 1st to late 1st
also James Brown from Troy, Zebrie Sanders from FSU, and Nate Potter from Boise St. (who has been compared to Nate Solder)
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
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Mike Adams isn't a LT
And it would take a small miracle for either Rief or Martin to fall past the multiple LT needy teams in front of us.
As far ad the other guys you mentioned Zebrie Sanders projects as a RT (much like Adams) and the other two arent project players not worthy of a 1st round pick. However, I would like to see us pick up either Brown or Matt McCants in the likely event we can’t land one of the 3 1st round LT’s
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 27, 2012 2:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
Mike Adams is every bit a LT. Lol
I’ve seen mocks predicting Martin as low as 28 and only as high as 12
I never said Riley Reif would fall. He’ll be a top 10 pick.
Go do more research Mike Adams does NOT project as a RT. At all
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
Follow the link and read the "Latest News" box which gives a Senior Bowl update
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1620008
-“Lack of foot quickness”
-“Heavy in his shuffle”
-“Struggles to recover”
-“LACK OF LATTERAL AGILITY”
Those are all very bad traits for an NFL LT to posses. However his size and mauling ability make him a good RT candidate where he doesn’t have to use athletisism and quick footwork nearly as much.
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 27, 2012 9:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Take a look at what MTD has to say about him and what position he is fit for:
And Walter Football:
http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2012OT.php
(I know they’re not a great source but when there are multiple other sources echoing the same sentiment that says something)
So as you can see, I’ve done my research.
by Joeb'n777 on Jan 27, 2012 11:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You just quoted Walter football
you just lost all credibility
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
by suckmyditka on Jan 28, 2012 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
lol he used 3 sites
all saying the same thing.
almost as bad as using bleacher report
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
Hey now.....
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:46 AM CST up reply actions
Hey I can pick and choose sites too
Given his elite height and size, Adams certainly passes the eyeball test as a pro prospect. He is the prototypical left tackle prospect who really excels with his footwork and has the talent to improve his technique. Adams will need to grow as a run blocker. He lacks that killer instinct offensive line coaches fall in love with. He will need to correct his techniques as a zone blocker as he sometimes loses his assignment and gets lost out in open space.
The most promising facets to Adams’ skill-set are his frame and good feet. He may need an extra year to develop or grow into the position as a rookie, but most every team in the NFL is willing to be patient with a guy his size.
Extremely good size for a left tackle, but he could even beef up a little bit and still remain athletic… Very big player, but plays very lean for his size… Ideal candidate to grow into a franchise left tackle in the NFL, just on profile alone…
He’s a talented kid with a big frame, long arms and natural movement skills. He can bend and if he can put it all together and continue to improve his footwork he could certainly mature into a starting caliber left tackle in the NFL.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
First off what is "Sideline Scouting"?
Secondly, while NFP is a legitimate source that was written on October 12. Also, consider this:
if he can put it all together and continue to improve his footwork he could certainly mature into a starting caliber left tackle in the NFL.
According to my source, as of 4 days ago his footwork hadn’t improved. And again, do you know what they do with big tackles with poor footwork? They move them to RT.
The point is
anyone can grab sources and fit them to their argument. I’m watching the senior bowl, and have watch him multiple times on film and in live games. He has every physical gift that a NFL LT should have. He’s a little raw, but like any other rookie ever in the history of the NFL, he could use some work.
No rookie this year, nor ever, is the perfect NFL player right out of college.
Mike Mayock, probably the highest authority on the draft, sees him as a legitimate NFL LT and has even said that if he plays well today against Coples and Ingram, Adams could find his way into making some big $$$
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders
It's all about THE []_[] baby!!!
~"Smile when u being attacked,laugh when they talking boutcha,wave when they hating on u and Pray when they leave u alone Somethings wrong!"~ Deion Sanders
At least FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER before you judge me fool
Same things were said about Nate Solder last year....
Just because a player needs work in an area doesn’t mean they aren’t fit for the position.
Drafttek, one of the hottest and biggest draft sites around has him as a LT, and their consensus mock draft has him going to the Lions 23rd overall. At 6’7" and 320, and with more upside than downside (technique is far less important that talent) Adams will play left tackle in the NFL.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 30, 2012 6:55 AM CST up reply actions
Vikings wouldn't trade down this far unless they got a TON of picks in return.
I can’t see that happening. Emery will be smart enough to know he’s got a lot of wholes to fill both in the short term and in the longterm, and he wouldn’t be dumb enough to trade (for example), this year’s 1 & 2, plus next year’s 1 and 4, just to get one guy.
That’s more or less what I would ask for if I was sitting at number 3 and I team wanted me trade back all the way to 19. Especially if that was a division rival like the Bears. No way that deal is worth it to us.
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