Defending Angelo
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 11:14 AM CST
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I know it’s fashionable to dump on Angelo, and he certainly deserves to shoulder the blame for the chronic failure to build up a competent offensive line despite having tons of cap room this offseason. But I think he gets a bad rap over the draft history.
I’ll get to the first rounders in a second, but lets start by acknowledging that the man drafted two absolute studs, and potential hall of famers OUTSIDE the first round (Briggs in round 3, and Hester in round 2). And, he got a whole bunch of other quality picks in rounds 2 – 7 over the years:
- Tillman was a 2
- Alex Brown was a 4
- Vasher was a 5
- Forte was a 2
- Mark Anderson was a 5
- Orton was a 4
- Lance Louis was a 7
- Chris Harris was a 6
So Angelo definitely did some good things in the middle/late rounds of the draft. The knock is supposed to be on his first round track record. But was that really so bad? I count only one true first round bust (Michael Haynes), one significant underachiever that could still be a bust (Chris Williams) and one other draft where he could have picked a future star but instead traded down for a mediocre talent in round 2 (Manning):
2002: Marc Colombo, failed with the Bears because of a knee injury, but started at LT for a Cowboys team that made the playoffs several times. The blame here should be for dumping him too soon, not for drafting him when he was healthy.
2003: Traded #4 pick to NYJ for two picks, who became Haynes and Grossman. Haynes was a bust. Grossman is a flawed player, but was the QB on a Super Bowl team and proved this year he belongs in the league as a borderline starter. For what its worth, the papers at the time called for the Bears to take DeWayne Robertson at 4, who turned out to be just as big a bust as Haynes when the Jets took him in that spot.
2004: Tommie Harris, arguably Angelo’s best first round pick until injuries derailed his career. If you had a crystal ball you’d take Vince Wilfork instead, but for several years Tommie looked like the steal of this draft.
2005: Cedric Benson, like Colombo a player that failed with the Bears for largely unpredictable reasons, only to excel elsewhere. Maybe a better GM could have diagnosed the issues that would keep him from being good as a Bear, but I doubt it. Has since gone on to be a multiple time 1,000 yard back in Cincinnati.
2006: Traded down from a late pick and got Danieal Manning in round 2, followed by Hester. My thoughts on that are above.
2007: Greg Olson, a pick that was widely celebrated at the time and turned out to have been a good not great selection.
2008: Chris Williams, who was an injury risk, and has been mediocre when healthy. Jury is still out on whether this a “bust”, but it definitely looks like a bad pick that failed to help at a position that desperately needed help and still does.
2009 & 2010: Cutler.
2011: Carimi, who looked like a stud before his injury, and could end up either being a terrific pick, or perhaps the next Colombo.
So all in all? Not great, but certainly not nearly as bad in round 1 as people suggest. And with the later round talents he found, Angelo is a big part of the reason this team made a super bowl and made another NFC Championship game in his tenure.
This FanPost was written by a Windy City Gridiron member, and does not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of its staff or community.
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02
1st: OL Marc Colombo – BUST
3rd: DB Roosevelt Williams – meh
3rd: OL Terrence Metcalf – Awful
4th: DE Alex Brown – Very solid late round pick.
5th: DB Bobby Gray – Who?
5th: LB Bryan Knight – Who?
6th: RB Adrian Peterson – A utility player
6th: WR Jamin Elliot – Who?
6th: TE Bryan Fletcher – Who?
Superman wears an Urlacher Jersey under his costume
by BearNecessities on Jan 3, 2012 11:28 AM CST reply actions
I think I’d grade this one as D.
In a redraft, Alex Brown might have gone in the first round. Adrian Peterson was probably worth about a fourth.
03
1st: DE Michael Haynes – BUST
1st: QB Rex Grossman – ugh
2nd: DB Charles Tillman – Great Pick.
3rd: LB Lance Briggs: Great pick
4th: Todd Johnson – decent pick.
4th: DT Ian Scott – Role player
5th: WR Bobby Wade- meh.
5th: WR Justin Gage: Bust for Bears
5th: DL Tron LaFavor – Who?
6th: LB Joe Odom – Who?
6th: RB Brock Forsey – Who?
7th: WR Bryan Anderson – Who?
Superman wears an Urlacher Jersey under his costume
by BearNecessities on Jan 3, 2012 11:30 AM CST reply actions
I’d give this an A.
Charles Tillman, and Lance Briggs have both proven to be first round talents. Rex Grossman is at worst a second round talent. And the other guys round out a very solid draft.
You can't give any draft with such a colossal first round bust an A.
Tillman and Briggs bring it back a bit, but only to B+ at best.
------ TheRiot Squad ------
by RightFieldSucks on Jan 4, 2012 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
So Gage is a "bust for the bears"
But you don’t use the same qualifier on Colombo in the 02 draft, who was addressed by the OP?
Colombo should be a bust
Gale Sayers was a great player during his short career, a Hall of Famer, in fact, but his talent superceded his injury-shortened career when we look back at it. Colombo was never anything but IR-fodder here, and while he has had a modicum of success post-Bears, his Chicago career was short and meaningless. Gage, for a 5th round pick, can’t be viewed as a bust since he accomplished some things during his time here, unlike Tron.
If its free, take two.
Just because the Bears were to short-sighted to retain Colombo doesn't make him a bust....
That’s just ridiculous.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
Colombo rose like a frickin' injured Phoenix
out of his Bears uniform and became… a decent, less-often injured lineman. How does that not qualify as a bust whence we speak of first-round picks? The guy could of been good here, but he wasn’t, and he was hurt, so…. bust.
If its free, take two.
Wow...
aren’t we overstating just a bit?
Colombo has missed eight total games since returning from his knee injury in Chicago. Seven of those came in one season. In other words, he’s only missed games in two seasons. And to put that in perspective, Urlacher has missed almost twice as many games.
He was called the cornerstone of the line in Dallas by the coaching staff, so you might be understating his importance and his play.
Do you consider Jombo Covert a bust? He suffered serious injury after just a couple of years and never was the same. The Bears got a couple of years out of him and he was out of the league aftwer playing the exact same number of games that Colombo has played in the league, except Colombo isn’t done.
If the Bears hadn’t been so short-sighted, Colombo would likely still be here. Dallas and Miami have both been happy with our “bust” though.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 6:49 AM CST up reply actions
And, you're not talking about any first round pick
You’re talking about a pick at the bottom of the first round. The Bears won the Division and had a first-round bye in 2001. As a result, they had the 29th pick (out of 32) in the draft. It’s not as if they could have just drafted Julius Peppers (#2), Bryant McKinnie (#7), or Ed Reed (#24).
If you look at the rest of that draft, the only really good O-linemen that were drafted are both Centers (Gurode and Bentley), and we had a young Olin still in his prime at that position.
Could they have done better with perfect hindsight? Sure, anyone could. But it’s not like anyone else drafted a hall of famer after Colombo went off the board.
by Orval Overall on Jan 5, 2012 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
This is a very well written arguement
And, this is not counting all the good FA moves he made, with prime examples being:
DE Julius Peppers
OL John Tait
OL Ruben Brown
OL Roberto Garza
QB Jay Cutler via Trade
And these 5 are just the best examples out of numerous other signings he has made. Ultimately, I feel it has been this past year where the most damage was done, as the Sam Hurd arrest and the big draft day trade botch with the Ravens pretty much lost the Bears a good deals of respect from the players as well as from other franchises around the league. When meltdowns happen to playoff contending teams in any team sport, normally someone’s job will pay the price. And Jerry Angelo was doomed from the start.
Jay Cutler is our QB, and I for one am proud of that
by Erik Christopher Duerrwaechter on Jan 3, 2012 11:31 AM CST reply actions
Draft Grades
Some time ago, I compiled a list of the Bears draft picks by year, and then assigned grades to them based on the actual performance of the players. From what I remember, it turned out Angelo wasn’t nearly as bad as I expected.
I didn’t go the extra mile and grade another team’s picks, but I thought he was about a C/C+.
Looking back at my notes...
It is a good thing I had notes, because I didn’t remember them very well.
2002 – D
2003 – A
2004 – B
2005 – D
2006 – C
2007 – F
2008 – B
2009 – D
2010 – D
Jerry Angelo is bad at drafting players to play in the NFL.
04
1st: DT Tommie Harris – good for 3 years.
2nd: DT Tank Johnson – good
3rd: WR Bernard Berrian – not good
4th: DB Nathan Vasher – okay pick
4th: LB Leon Joe – Who?
5th Claude Harriott – Who?
5th: QB Craig Krenzel – ROFL.
7th DB Alfonso Marshall – Who?
Superman wears an Urlacher Jersey under his costume
by BearNecessities on Jan 3, 2012 11:32 AM CST reply actions
Berrian was good for the Bears
he stunk lately in Minnesota, but dont forget that in the Super Bowl year he was our best receiver with 775 yards and 6 TDs, followed by 951 yards and 5 TDs, and then his first year in Minnesota he had had 964 and 7 TDs.
That’s a very, very solid pick.
So was Vasher, who you may forget was a dynamic return man before Hester came along and had about 3 years as a very solid cover corner.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Part of Angelo's problem
was his “hit” guys either flamed out early (Tommie, Vasher) or had their mediocre success after leaving the Bears (Benson, Colombo).
If its free, take two.
Briggs? Tillman? Hester? Brown? Forte?
I just don’t know how people can say that, just like I don’t see why it’s a very sharp criticism that guys like Benson and Colombo had success elsewhere. That argument is more of an indicment of the coaching staff than it is Angelo.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
That's it.
11 years, 5 names come to mind, one of which was average (Brown) and one of which is special teams exclusively (Hester).
He found a Kick Returner, RB, LB, and CB over 11 years. He found no other high quality players that stuck. We have 0 players from the 2005 draft on our team. Zero.
He made some savvy free agency decisions, and I give him credit, but his scouting and drafting business model is awful.
He tried to build us an offense: QB Rex Grossman (03), WR Bernard Berrian (04), RB Cedric Benson (05), WR Mark Bradley (05), Greg Olsen (07)…But forgot to get offensive linemen in the top 3 rounds for 5 straight drafts, and wonders why the O-Line fell apart…Then C. Williams (08), Matt Forte (08), Earl Bennett (08) for his first real hits on the offensive side of the ball in, at that time, in 8 years of drafting. 8 years to get it right on a quality starting offensive player.
We have 2 first round picks made by Chicago in the last 11 years on our roster; Chris Williams and Gabe Carimi; both finished the season on IR. If you haven’t noticed, 1st round picks are where you get your blue chip players. A few late round guys will cover down on some of that, but 11 years, 2 players on the roster, one of whom has been IR’d twice and the other still a big unknown but man do I hope Carimi works out (not that I had Columbo flashbacks or anything with a bad knee’d RT on IR early and undergoing multiple surgeries).
11 years, and what does our offense have to show? Matt Forte, our sole, single, lonely offensive pro-bowl player drafted in 11 years…Who was taken in one of the deepest RB classes in NFL History (McFadden, Jonathan Stewart, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Matt Forte, Jamaal Charles)
"just as Gary Fencik will go down as the last person to catch a Joe Namath pass, Wootton will be remembered in NFL history as the last player to sack Brett Favre." - John "Moon" Mullin
I disagree on a few things....
First, was it Angleo that moved Hester to the offensive side of the ball? No. Angelo drafted a corner that the coaching staff converted.
Second, Greg Olsen was a solid pick that was a mistake to trade away.
Most importantly is the complete lack of culpability on the part of a coaching staff that has failed to develop talent from day one. Nobody here is noting the tangible drop in draft success after Lovie Smith’s contract changes.
Make Smith the new GM. Let’s find out where the fault really belonged.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Players like Olsen don't grow on trees
but I’m glad the Bears don’t have to wait for him to fulfill his potential. He’s a one dimensional TE, and not even a top TE in that one dimension. Overall, I’d say he is below average, getting a third round pick and a roster spot to roll the dice with is win-win.
I don’t think he is technically a bust, but for a tight-end drafted in the first round, he hasn’t been very good.
Ignoring the post-Cutler games, the Bears have been pretty successful over the past two seasons. Which could have been because of good coaching, good talent, or luck. While I do believe the Bears have a talented team, I think it is fair to say (looking at draft success, and free agent success) the Bears have been over-achieving based on that talent. Maybe it was more luck than coaching, but I think the coaching staff makes the players look better than they are.
Of the five drafts since Lovie’s contract changes, two of them, 2009 and 2010 were missing first round picks (for Cutler), and 2010 was missing a second round pick for the late Gaines Adams. Those missing picks (and the flexibility to turn them into more/different picks) is another factor in the drop in draft success.
While the scientist in me would love to be able to carry out the Lovie Smith as GM experiment, the Bears fan in me A) doesn’t want to take that chance and B) doesn’t care whether Lovie is good at scouting so long as the results improve. GM/headcoaches are an ego trip off a cliff.
I disagree...
First, missing the first round picks has nothing to do with the drop-off in success of the picks that were cast. They only have something to do with the lack of first round picks. Picks like Okwo, Freeman, Bazuin, Gilbert, and Iglesias aren’t a reflection of a lack of first round picks. Sorry, but that excuse doesn’t wash.
I also disagree on Olsen, who I think is better than you are giving him credit for, but that’s a subjective argument. but his 500 yards and 5 TDs average is in the top 10 TEs in the league over the last five seasons, so statistically, he has been among the top even while he’s spent his whole career at a disadvantage to guys like Celek, Finley, Gates, Clark, Gonzalez and Witten.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 7:01 AM CST up reply actions
Bad picks are bad picks, and there were too many
But I think JA and co would have been more willing to trade down, or do something different if they already had had a pick in hand.
I assume when it was finally their turn to draft, they didn’t see any of the players they hoped to get in the 2nd/3rd round, so they could either trade down or reach. Seeing all the other teams having so much fun getting new players, they reached.
Once you get to the fourth round it’s all a crapshoot, and, for these 4-5 drafts, a small sample size.
We so agree here.
Bad picks and bad decisions.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 7:51 AM CST up reply actions
Re: Olsen
He isn’t a bad receiver. I don’t know if he is one of the top 10 receiving TEs in the game right now (top 15 probably), but as a TE he has other responsibilities, and he isn’t very good at them.
Before this season, I would have accepted the Bears/Martz excuses for why he didn’t have a breakout season, but looking at his performance in Carolina, it sure looks like he is the same player he was with the Bears (which is underwhelming for a first round TE). Maybe with a full offseason with a different team, he’ll be that guy, but, really, I’m glad the Bears won’t be counting on that.
Carolina pretty much asked Olsen to do what Martz asked him to do.
It wasn’t an ideal trade for Olsen, to be sure. The guy spent 405 snaps blocking, lol. He also had to share recieiving duties with Jeremy Shockey. Oddly enough, Olsen actually ranked higher as a pass blocker than Shockey did. go figure.
As to being a receiver first, if you lok around the league, there are a lot of “receiver first” TEs that don’t receive the same judgementalism over it as Olsen. Antonio Gates, Brent Celek, Owen Daniels, Jermichael Finley, Dallas Clark, etc……
As to top 10, performance wise, His yardage and touchdowns are both top ten among Tight Ends over the past five years. That isn’t arguable. Nor is the fact that he spent 4 of those years saddled with Ron Turner and Mike Martz before spending the final year sharing receiving duties with Jeremy Shockey. So he put up top 10 numbers whiel being at a distinct disadvantage over that time.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 7:50 AM CST up reply actions
Whoops, hit the post button to soon, lol.
I also disagree on the coaching staff making the player look better. I think there’s been a distinct lack of development on the offense, especially at the wide receiver position—where I’m still struggling to see how Darryl Drake still has a job—and in the defensive secondary. Additionally, Smith’s emphasis on versatility has hurt player development on the offensive line and in the defensive secondary.
As to your last statement, I understand your point, but I think you create an even worse dynamic by making the same mistake that was made when Angelo was hired. You create a caustic environment in the front office when you hire a GM to preside over a coach who has more power than he does. I don’t think hiring Angelo avoided ego problems in the front office, and if you believe some of the former players, that didn’t change even after Angelo hired his own guy.
Creating another issue like this could cause longer lasting problems than just going with Smith. He already has half of the control in the draft and free agency and all of the hiring control for his staff.
The last time the Bears brought in a GM in this manner it led to a decade of mediocrity. Allowing Smith to preside over his own ship could work. And if it doesn’t, then it could be easily remedied with one firing and we’d know exactly who to fire.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
Re: Player development
I think the point I was intending to make, but failed to, was that the team as a whole over achieves (they win games their talent level says they shouldn’t win), not necessarily that individual players over achieve. So, in that sense, the team has developed, but that isn’t to say the players have.
At this point, Drake is a dead is a dead horse. I was surprised they kept him when Martz was first hired. Drake, like Turner, was one of the pieces that I just couldn’t make sense of when they traded for Cutler. The Bears passing game had been rotten to the core for decades, and they really thought getting a better quarterback was going to fix all of the problems? Martz wasn’t my top pick when they hired him, but I thought he could help get the Bears offense at least up to the 1990s. But, that is neither here nor there.
One of the things I like about the way Lovie’s teams are put together, is that they value players differently than most teams, so they can take advantage of some Moneyball-like inefficiencies in the market. They can benefit from other teams not valuing special teams and make games against better teams competitive. Since he doesn’t ask defensive backs to do a lot of man coverage, he isn’t looking for a shutdown corner, he wants good tacklers who can make plays on the ball.
So, since they aren’t fighting over the same players as other teams, it should be easier for them to find the ones they like best. They have completely failed, and I don’t have any way of explaining why. In 2007 they had a glut of guys they thought could play safety, and they traded Chris Harris. Mike Brown got hurt in the first game and never came back, Archuletta wasn’t good any more, and we’re still looking for the right pieces.
I want the Bears to be better than what they have been, but this decade of mediocrity has been a lot better than whatever that decade was that preceded it.
I expect, whoever the new GM is, will be an upgrade over JA, and I think that bodes well for the team regardless of who the coach is in 2-5 years.
And we agree here, too.
I’d also note that the safety development has been one of the worst coaching failures on the team and it directly involves Smith, who feels safeties have to be versatile and thus screwed up Danieal Manning for years and doghoused Trumaine McBride, Corey Graham and Brandon McGowen because they baulked at not being developed at a position. Some of the dumbest decisions made for this team revolve around the safety position and the lack of patience and development.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 8:00 AM CST up reply actions
Excuse me...are my posts invisible?
Nobody here is noting the tangible drop in draft success after Lovie Smith’s contract changes
I wrote this about 30 hours earlier…you even responded to it!! I get no credit all…hey, wait a minute, are you my mother-in-law???
As I said when you posted this in the other area, great job on this.
Looking at the lists above, is it a coincidence that Angelo’s drafts earlier in his tenure with the Bears were better than the last few years after Teflon…I mean Lovie’s contract extension called for him to have an increased say in personnel decisions?
Just saying
You are, in fact, nobody.....
;)
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 7:52 AM CST up reply actions
LMAO!
:D
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
5 names in 11 years is horrific
Especially considering Brown, as much as I loved him, was a serviceable starter but nothing else. For a 4th rounder, he was a great pickup, but you can’t throw out the same 5 names without acknowledges all the early round misses (especially 2nd and 3rd round picks). The only reason Jerry lasted this long is because of those names; without them, his big misses early in the draft would have been inexcusable years ago, even for our old management.
If its free, take two.
Well, I listed 10 names above, all from outside the first round.
Added to that, I’d probably list some others from inside the first round. I just don’t see the need to repeat that each time the same claim is made.
by Orval Overall on Jan 4, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Look I'm willing to concede you JA wasn't terrible
For the sake of the argument, but you have to acknowledge that continuing to do what he’s done the past 11 years would not get us to a consistently high level of success over a 4-5 year span.
If its free, take two.
Are you considering the difference in quality of draft AFTER Lovie Smith's renegotiated contract and increased draft power?
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'll gladly acknowledge
The dropoff after Lovie increased his say but that makes both culpable (which I think is your point)? Angelo’s gone becauae his primary responsibility is building a team and now Lovie is put on notice to win or else. I dont see that as a bad thing.
If its free, take two.
by T.J. Shouse on Jan 5, 2012 9:25 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Yep. That was definitely my point. :)
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 8:00 AM CST up reply actions
He's missed more than he's hit draftwise...and it's high time he's gone. good riddance
Superman wears an Urlacher Jersey under his costume
by BearNecessities on Jan 3, 2012 11:33 AM CST reply actions
Angelo and Smith have won 56% of regular season games.
"More cowbell" - Bruce Dickinson; "More bell cow" - Lovie Smith
True, and at least
The team never bottomed out and had like an under 4 win season. We’ve been pretty competitive during their tenures and at least he got us to a Super Bowl and a NFC Championship. He could have done better but he also could have done a lot worse.
As I said when you posted this in the other area, great job on this.
Looking at the lists above, is it a coincidence that Angelo’s drafts earlier in his tenure with the Bears were better than the last few years after Teflon…I mean Lovie’s contract extension called for him to have an increased say in personnel decisions?
Just saying…..
Thanks. Your theory might have legs.
That 2007 draft was especially putrid, as was 2009. While I’m defending the overall record above, I think you can fairly tie a lot of the team’s lack of depth to the total failure of 2nd and 3rd round picks in those years, which were spent on the likes of Dan Bazuin, Garrett Wolfe, Michael Okwo in 2007, and Jarron Gilbert and Juaquin Iglesias in 2009. Find useful players in those spots, and maybe the team could survive an injury or two.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
I've been making that argument for years.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
I figured you would declare this day a holiday.....
I might have to put myself on I.R. from tearing an ACL after trying to click my heels and do cartwheels at the same time!!!
I tried....
but Jan 3rd is already Humiliation Day. It seemed fitting enough.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
Haven't seen your choice for GM yet, have you thought about it?
On one hand I’d like to see an “up and comer” but I’m afraid Lovie would wield too much power with a young guy, so of the people I know are available, I’d go for Polian because I think he’d make Lovie more accountable.
My darkhorse would be Cowher because of the Rooney/Halas connection from Day One of the NFL and Lovie wouldn’t be able to snow him with injuries, bad luck, etc. as excuses if the team doesn’t do well next season. He had a lot of front office duties when he was with the Steelers from what I hear and also heard some reports that he would like to make this kind of move ala Bill Parcells.
get ready to vomit...
Lovie Lee Smith is my personal choice for GM.
No excuses. Either the team proves the MCCaskeys’ trust in Lovie or Smith earns his walking papers, eityher way, it would give us answers within a year.
Anything else hamstrings the new GM and create the same ego problems that were fostered by the Bears doing the exact same thing to Angelo when he cam in with Jauron having so much power.
If you aren’t going to allow a new GM to choose him poison and be accountable for it, then the Head Coach they are so trusting of should be given those responsibilities. He already has draft powers and power over his own staff. Complete the action and let’s see if it was Angelo holding Smith back or if Smith just had easy excuses available that he would no longer be afforded.
Does anyone emember how screwed up everythig was during the overlap time period of Angelo and Jauron? And I think it hamstrung Angelo much longer than people realized.
Don’t make the same mistakes that Mike made, George.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
lol, I warned you!
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
Get ready to clean it up because after reading all the articles and hearing the interviews/press conferences
I agree with you and was going to suggest the same thing.
This madness has to stop one way or the other and by turning total control over to Lovie, he either proves many of us wrong and is the football genius the McCaskey’s and Phillips thinks he is or he proves to the world that his main attribute is throwing other people under the bus and should be fired immediately. (Obviously, his other attribute is long range photography which explains the photos of Virginia, Ted, and/or family pets…but I digress).
Let’s actually hold the right people accountable for a change with no question as to who can and can’t do the job because it would not only prove Lovie’s worth but Phillips as well. We either have a Super Bowl championship or a completely clean house.
Exactly.
OK, now you might be somebody…. ;)
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 5, 2012 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
Ironically enough, also my father's birthday. Take it for what you will.
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by Steven Schweickert on Jan 3, 2012 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
The first few years weren't as bad...
but 2005 was a waste of time..By 2009 none of those players were on our roster (and yes, Benson, Orton, and Harris are all decent players but none actually played for us 3-4 years after the draft, and we had to trade to get one back before cutting him again.)
2006 got us Hester and some inconsistent play from Daniel Manning.
2007 gave us 3 years of Greg Olsen…
3 straight years, with 1 quality player sticking on our roster, and him being a return man and #5 receiver. That is what killed Angelo. That period, followed by the need to trade for Cutler that took away from the 2009-2010 drafts, left us with 5 of the last 7 years of drafts bearing few high quality players…2005-2011 drafted real impact starting players: Matt Forte, Devin Hester.
There are more to come hopefully (Melton, Conte, C. Williams, G. Carimi, Wootton, Wright, Knox, Bennett)…but we don’t know yet. Either we can’t draft, can’t coach, or both. We are testing half of that equation starting today.
"just as Gary Fencik will go down as the last person to catch a Joe Namath pass, Wootton will be remembered in NFL history as the last player to sack Brett Favre." - John "Moon" Mullin
There are more to come hopefully (Melton, Conte, C. Williams, G. Carimi, Wootton, Wright, Knox, Bennett)…
Has Wooton done anything do deserve inclusion with those other guys you’ve listed other than end Favre?
If its free, take two.
other than the greatest sack of all time?
Does he need anything more? Well, he did have a pretty awesome sack/safety against Iowa his senior year … uh, oh, I see. You mean with the Bears? Not yet, but be patient, the talent and size are there, it’s just been hard for him to get on the field because of injuries.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
And with the Wootton pick
I was all for it because you had a guy with great talent but was injury prone and was worth a 4th rounder. But JA’s problem has been taking too many fliers on guys like that.
If its free, take two.
by T.J. Shouse on Jan 3, 2012 7:44 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Nope
but killing Favre gets you 3 years in my book lol.
"just as Gary Fencik will go down as the last person to catch a Joe Namath pass, Wootton will be remembered in NFL history as the last player to sack Brett Favre." - John "Moon" Mullin
Eh...
Orton started 33 games for the Bears (21-12 record), and was a major reason why Denver decided to trade Cutler to Chicago. That’s at least 2nd round value. Harris started for part of two seasons, and then Angelo got a 5th rounder for him that became I believe Kellen Davis. Benson sucks, but there were a LOT of busts that year. The top 10 picks combined have been to just 5 total pro bowls, amazing.
2006 was fine. Anytime you draft a Hall of Famer, that draft was fine. I don’t care that Hester is a returner, he won a lot of games for the Bears. Manning was a solid 2nd round value too.
Really
You just tossed out Orton’s record like he won games in 2005 (11-5). I actually watched those games. He hit the 200 yard mark twice and went 7 games without a TD pass that year. He won those games like Dilfer won the Super Bowl on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was 10-7 after that…and was barely a contributor in most of those games too. In 3 seasons of playing time in Chicago, he never cracked 60% passing (in a season), never cracked 3000 yards, never cracked 20 TDs, never averaged 6.5 Yards Per Pass (let alone 7), never cracked a passer rating of 80, and had 30 passing TDs and 3 Rushing TDs against 27 Interceptions and 10 lost fumbles. His greatest game EVER was the loss to Atlanta in 2008.
Who knows what Manning was, or wasn’t, we never will.
Hester was a great draft pick…But no, that does not make the entire draft fine. At that pace, you can field a roster once every 22-25 years…with some seriously old vets.
"just as Gary Fencik will go down as the last person to catch a Joe Namath pass, Wootton will be remembered in NFL history as the last player to sack Brett Favre." - John "Moon" Mullin
How many guys from a typical draft do you think make an impact for a team?
Look at the 2006 draft. There were 251 players drafted not including kickers/punters, and 121 of them were the primary starter for their team in at least 1 year since then. Number of primary starters per round:
First round: 28/32, 87.5%
Second round: 29/32, 90.6%
Third round: 10/32, 31.3%
Fourth round: 17/35, 48.6%
Fifth round: 18/36, 50.0%
Sixth round: 14/37, 37.8%
Seventh round: 5/46, 10.9%
Angelo had a 1st (traded down for a 2nd & 3rd), 2nd, 4th, 5th, and two 6ths I believe. That’s an expected 0.875 + 0.906 + 0.486 + 0.50 + 2*0.378 = 3.52 expected starters. Angelo ended up getting four (Dvoracek started most of one year), and got a Hall of Famer out of it. I can see the argument that two of the four (Dvoracek and Mark Anderson) didn’t have much of an impact at all. But given how good Hester has been, and with Manning being a longtime starter who was pretty darn good his last year with the Bears, I wouldn’t call that draft bad. Obviously it’s not a good draft, but from looking at these numbers I’d bet the Bears did better than about a dozen teams in the league that year, maybe more.
That's the problem here
I can see the argument that two of the four (Dvoracek and Mark Anderson) didn’t have much of an impact at all
Qualifiers abound when talking about Jerry’s “good” picks: Hester is great, no doubt, Dvoracek and Anderson gave us maybe two solid years total, and Manning was okay to good as a DB. I’m not going to absolve Lovie of complicity in some of these draft picks busting, but there’s no way you can look at Dvoracek and Anderson as good value starters.
looking at these numbers I’d bet the Bears did better than about a dozen teams in the league that year, maybe more.
So, that would put us about right where we’ve been the majority of the past decade, not gawd-awful, but not consistently at the top either. Eventually in the NFL, being average will get you canned.
If its free, take two.
Class of 2005
He wasn’t drafted, but we did pick up Robbie Gould in 2005.
by Kyle From Chicago on Jan 3, 2012 7:54 PM CST up reply actions
Good.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Angelo had some hits.
Mostly, he came up empty on draft day. The Bears lack of depth proves that point all day long. Bottom line, we needed a change after a decade of Angelo.
by PolishSausage.Ditka.Bears. on Jan 3, 2012 2:37 PM CST reply actions
I wrote for FireJerryAngelo.com, so I of course agree with the firing, but......
there was no team in the league that has the depth to overcome the loss of their starting quarterback, running back, top two offensive linemen and their best receiver, and for those that point to Houston, Foster missed his games early and the only game that both Foster and Schaub missed ended in a Houston loss.
Still…….
The king is dead, long live the king……..
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
Correction
No team in the league has the depth to overcome significant injuries, when you’ve drafted so poorly that 5 undrafted free agents made your opening day roster in 2011.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
No correction was needed.
The original statement was more accurate.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and Green Bay has five undrafted free agents on their opening day roster.....
And seven made the Pats roster. Those are the league two number 1 seeds. Which is why I noted accuracy.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
And I'm just noting the rookie UDFAs, which is what I assume you meant.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 3, 2012 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Tomorrow morning at 10am CSt
I have a “Jerry Angelo Memorial” Post ready with a big ole list of hits and misses. Sneek Preview: Never, ever forget, Tron LaFavor." Great name…. and that was it.
If its free, take two.
Angelo seemed to pride himself on gambling on collegians with an injury history
And it seemed like he missed every single time.
Whose job am I supposed to call for now?
In recent years, 2007 was his only bad draft imo
I think his work in free agency was a big negative (how do you not sign a young established talent this offseason with all that talent and money available, ugh…), and that’s going to hurt this team as its veterans age.
But all-in-all, I think his drafting was decent, and I give him credit for going balls-to-the-wall to finally get a franchise QB.
2009 is tough to defend.
No first rounder because of the Cutler deal. But he traded out of round 2 at a time when LeSean McCoy and Phil Loadholt were still on the board, and wound up taking Jarron Gilbert (now a practice squad player for the Bills) early in round 3 instead. Then with a 3rd round supplemental pick he took Juaquin Iglesias (now a practice squad player with the Texans). Incidentally, our original 3rd rounder from that draft was included in the Cutler deal and made its way to Pittsburgh, who used it on Pro Bowl receiver Mike Wallace. (To be fair, the extra pick netted in the trade down for Gilbert turned into Henry Melton in round 4).
Angelo got good value from Melton, and then Knox in round 5, so the draft wasn’t a total waste. But he definitely swung and missed on two players that could easily have been useful players instead. I still say overall he was not as bad as people say, but this draft and 2007 were very poor.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
I appreciate the full rundown
I forgot exactly how the trades shook out, and it’s tough to find that online.
Obviously Gilbert/Iglesias were two swings and misses. But Melton had a really nice year and I’d say he is probably 2nd round value if you re-drafted, maybe late 1st. DJ Moore has probably given 3rd round value, Knox probably early 3rd, Lance Louis maybe 4th/5th. Maybe you disagree with some of these assessments, but overall, given that Angelo had no 1st round pick, I think he ended up with near expected value.
Gilbert's problem
Was that he was a “tweener” – kind of a smallish tackle, big end. But I remember Mel Kyper pushing both Gilbert and Iglesias, before Angelo selected them – and other scouts and draft boards seemed to concur. So, in hind-sight, they looked like pretty good picks.
We certainly weren’t able to develop either of them, though.
And we didn't need McCoy when we had Forte.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
I feel that the biggest failing for Angelo, even on some of his more successful picks, was where he picked guys.
I think about guys like Hester and Conte, while they have good results, at the time of those respective drafts were there are other value players available where he could have either traded down or waited one more round to get the same player. Granted there would be some risk but it was those reaches, especially with the Bauzins of the world, that really left the cupboard bare in my opinion.
Ehhh... I've never really agreed with the fantasy football mentality of the NFL draft
It’s easy to say we could have waited a round or two on Conte when mock drafts are projecting him later, but they don’t have the inside information that an NFL front office does as to who will go where.
This....
And word after the draft was that Conte wouldn’t have made it past the early fourth round. If that’s the case, the Bears would have lost him if they didn’t take him when they did.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 8:03 AM CST up reply actions
Funny enough, other teams looked at the selection of Hester in the second as genius.
Bazuin I gave him a pass on. No injury history at CMU and there were more than one team that was very high on Dan Bazuin. I have a lot of problems faulting a GM for a pick when they suffer catastrophic injury. That cannot be planned for. Guys like Bazuin, Colombo and Dvoracek, who have little to no college injury history just can’t be blamed on a GM.
It’s easy to sit back and armchair quarterback when a pick should have been taken, but we, as fans, generally have no clue where other teams we don’t follow will actually pick a player. Hell, we rarely know when our own team will grab someone. Rumors after the draft had Carolina, San Diego and the Jets all interested in nabbing him in the third and the Patriots considering him, as well. If the Bears wanted him, he had to be taken then.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 6, 2012 8:16 AM CST up reply actions
Getting excited about solid 2nd-round picks is actually an indictment of the front office
Getting Briggs in the 3rd round – great pick. Getting Brown in the 4th? That’s good value, but Brown isn’t a perennial Pro-Bowler. Orton, Vasher, Anderson – good value. Chris Harris in the 6th – great pick. But for each of those examples, there are equally as many Dan Bazuins, Mark Bradleys and Dusty Dvoraceks, if not many more.
Selecting Tillman, Hester and Forte in the 2nd round should be exactly what we EXPECT from our front office. Maybe they should have been taken in the late first round, but did anyone really consider them high first-rounders? Tillman was taken 5 spots after Nnamdi Asomugha, for example.
Getting players like Urlacher in the first round and Forte in the 2nd round is what winning ballclubs do. We’ve set the bar a little low to be overly impressed with our GM finding talents like Tillman, Forte and Hester in the 2nd round over a period of 10 years.
by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 3, 2012 6:07 PM CST reply actions
That's not realistic though
Here is, I believe, the latest draft that PFF has redrafted: 2009.
It looks like C or lower indicates a player who has little to no value for his team. I’m calling those players ‘busts’. A- or higher is an impact player. Of the 32 picks in the second round:
8/32 were impact players, 21/32 were busts, and 3/32 were capable role players. Even a great drafting team like the Packers missed on 2nd round picks a lot … since 2007, their 2nd rounds have been Randall Cobb, Mike Neal, Jordy Nelson, Brian Brohm, Patrick Lee, and Brandon Jackson.
Angelo’s 2nd rounders were Anthony Thomas, Tillman, Tank Johnson, Mark Bradley, Danieal Manning, Hester, Bazuin, Forte, the pick traded away to get Gilbert & Melton, Paea. I’d label 3/10 as impact players (Tillman/Hester/Forte), (4/10) as capable role players (A-Train, D Manning, Melton, Paea it looks like), and 3/10 as busts (Tank, Bradley, Bazuin). If the 2009 draft is indicative of a typical draft, it looks to me like Angelo was drafting 2nd rounders really well when compared to the NFL average.
one quibble
Although Angelo was hired in 2001 it was after the draft. That was actually Mark Hatleys last Bears draft. So the credit/blame for A-Train is on Hatley, not Angelo. More importantly, so is the blame for David Terrell.
by Orval Overall on Jan 3, 2012 9:46 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I admit my post was a tad hyperbolic...
…if that’s actually a word.
But I also think that the 2nd round was Angelo’s best.
So if 2009 is a regular year, which it may or may not be….1/4 were impact players. Meanwhile, 3/9 of Angelo’s 2nd-rounders were impact players. So he drafted well in the 2nd round compared to one season of NFL GMs (3/9 compared to 8/32).
And how about the first round? And the third round? How many first-day starters do the Bears have remaining today?
There was a problem with depth, with the WR corps, with the O-Line, and with the backup QB situation. I don’t know to whom to assign that blame, other than Jerry.
by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 4, 2012 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree on Tank, who is a solid player to this day.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
Well, at least unitl 2010.
And seven seasons starting in the NFL is definitely not a busted pick.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions
drafting stud players
how do we miss players that should be in navy and orange. i watched the Giants last weekend and on their d-line is a bear player. Jon Pierre Paul. how in the hell do we not get guy,s like him.We need a GM that drafts best available with a bears ID
Angelo's legacy
He was not as bad as his harshest critics claimed, and not as good as his staunchest defenders claimed.
Bottom line, someone had to go, and he (and Martz) were the easiest targets.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
You are all going to feel foolish for crowing about this.
No GM is perfect but Angelo was pretty good for the Bears, most draft picks do not result in nfl players (even role players). There is a post above that criticises Angelo for not getting a starter for a seventh round pick. Fans have totally unrealistic expectations of the draft and are much better at whingeing than making well observed criticisms.
"most draft picks do not result in nfl players"
So, uhh…where do they get them?
"You have a young group and if they start feeling too good about themselves, that’s not a good thing. So it’s my job not to let them. So probably they will hate me. But that’s OK too. My wife hates me and she’s still married to me." - Mike Tice
Simply put, 256 players are drafted yearly.
that’s an average of eight per team.
Players, of course come through the draft. But do the math and you’ll see that a league that carries 1696 total active players sees an awful lot of failure in the draft. More failure than success. And that’s not even including the huge number of undrafted FAs in the league.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
And out of the 1696
at least a third won’t be up to snuff.
Great teams get players from somewhere...
…be it the draft or free agency.
Angelo had 10 years to shape a team. Is ‘pretty good’ good enough?
Sure, the Bears could do much worse. But can’t they do at least a little better?
by Sweetness Lives On on Jan 4, 2012 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
Very true.
And there are some that would complain if we had the Packers draft history.
But there’s also Merit to the argument against Angelo. While crowing about 7th round mistakes i a bit ludicrous, so is his first and second round draft history.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 4, 2012 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
O__O
when your defense includes one trick ponies like Nathan Vasher, Tommie Harris, and Neckbeard… you sir must be bored.
The biggest problem most of us had against Angelo was that he did not have an eye for OFFENSIVE talent. Which is why only 1 player that has been drafted by Angelo has gone to the Pro Bowl… Cedric Benson… 1000 yards… in 16 games 1000 yards equals 62.5 yards a game… and his best season statistically was 2009…
I respect your OPINION but i also value the FACTS, To save time, lets just ASSume IM NEVER WRONG
by Tommy Ohyeah Mcduffie on Jan 7, 2012 12:46 PM CST reply actions
Matt Forte. Pro Bowl.
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 7, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
it was sarcasm...
I respect your OPINION but i also value the FACTS, To save time, lets just ASSume IM NEVER WRONG
by Tommy Ohyeah Mcduffie on Jan 7, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
i was mocking the names he was using my bad Tim
I respect your OPINION but i also value the FACTS, To save time, lets just ASSume IM NEVER WRONG
by Tommy Ohyeah Mcduffie on Jan 7, 2012 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
Nope, apparently it was my bad, cause...
I didn’t understand where you were going. To be honest, I still don’t. But I’m tired and obviously I misunderstood you, so….
Sorry, bro! :)
in•san•i•ty \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\ noun
1 : The practice of repeating the same action while expecting different results.
by Timothy Hockemeyer on Jan 8, 2012 8:28 AM CST up reply actions
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